Archive through May 12, 2005
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Archive through May 12, 2005
Firing the Phas-4s as R25 is risky. It means that the G1s can get to R3-4 of the planet and breakout back to ~R8 without them shooting again. That would be so bad that the defence would have to commit shatterpacks and defsat drones to keep the G1s back.
Now R8 to a phas-4 is still unpleasent, but consider that the G1 can arrange things that only 1 phas-4 can be in arc, and that it has enough shielding and hull to pretty much block 1 shot.
Of course, if the G1's knock out a P-4 base during that first attack run, then you won't get to shoot at them at all with any phas-4s, ever, until they decide to go in arc of another P-4 base at a time when you arn't cycling the P4-s.
I suspect that the G1s will hover at around R20-25. At this range, you can't shoot the P-4s at all. Commiting the P4-s means that they will come in and trash something and all your P4s did was bruise a shield. Not commiting the P-4s means you keep the G1s out there, where their firepower is relatively ineffectual. The G1s can then play chicken, coming in that little bit closer, just to see what *does* draw out your P4s.
As a result, my advice would be to hold off the P-4s from any shot longer than ~R8 until the drone wave has impacted/been destroyed. At which point, the G1s will probably buzz off anyway. If they don't, you let them muck about a bit while reloading fighter drones, and when your fighters are back out, you *then* fire the P4s.
David,
I think you are wrong.
IF the SP is sent out on a ballistic course.
THEN (F4.41) the drones will trigger as soon as a target qualifies.
Since the submunitions on random targeting will accept targets at range 0 or 1(FD7.34) and since it's a Shatter-Pack we are using the type-VI in it will target any SC7 (even our defsats) (FD7.34)
If I'm wrong on the trigger conditions and it only triggers on EMEMY units are within the ttrigger distance then Davids' plan will work. When they do trigger one or two of each SP will target our defsats unless the Bombardment drones are closer! So the SP may want to be 3 hexes from the nearest defsat with a 2 hex trigger or 4 hexes with a 3 hex trigger ect.
IF the SP does trigger on the defsats then I can only see one solution.
Don't launch until the Bombardment drones are going to finish the turn in the atmosphere make sure the SP triggers when before the end of turn and impulse 1 next turn the SP drones will take out the bombardment drones. This has several limitations. It only defends the hexside the SP is launched from (can the SP once loaded be transfered to a casual base and "launched" from there? It will still target defsats if there are too few bombardment drones. I don't think the shuttle pilot can be transported aboard soon enough to stop it crashing.
Paul: If the DefSats are not active, they will not be targeted by shatterpacks (friendly or enemy). This does restrict the possibility of range 15 phaser strikes from the DefSats. But there can be opportunities where exposing the DefSat to friendly shatterpack munitions will result in much heavier damage to the enemy.
David Slatter. You could safely fire the Ph-4s on impulse 25. The best they could do is go from 20 to 12 before the phasers recharge, which is just asking for more damage.
Richard,
That's a good call, although I was hoping the defsats phasers especially the phaser-2's would help keep the shatterpacks safe from G1 drones setting them off too soon.
SPP, kinda of topic.
When playing a scenario such as this, with DB drones only, could the defender choose when to fire at the drones, then recycling the phasers (8 impulses) to fire again before the drones hit the planet?
As in this situation, choosing the timing:
t1i25: Fire P4s at range 9
t2i1: fire P4s at range 1
Thus not having to wait the 32impulses, meaning the T1i1 doesn't start when he first fires.
Does that make sense?
Ghostflight a plan,
Given we know the position of the DB drones ,OK I know we don't know exactly yet but we will. We have a fair chance of choosing the time of any engagement with the G1's
My suggestion would be to aim for a close range 1 pass on two drone stacks each with three fighters on Impulse 32 of turn 3. This is the last impulse they can be engaged at close range and still have a chance of two shots so turns 3 and 4. This will be at range 29 from the plant so the fighters at range 28. At speed 12 the fighters will close 2 hexes in the last 8 impulses so should pre-position themselves at range 26 on impulse 25 of turn 3.
To discourage the G1 escorting the wave from interfering launch a full spread of six drones at it on impulse 25 or before and slow the flight to speed 12 if the bombardment drones are in the lead as in Banshees experience. If the G1 leads the drones will need to be launched earlier.
Six drones are on the cusp of what the G1 can try and deal with. It needs two ADD hits and the odds are it will get one unless it HETs away to make more time. Even if it braves/gets lucky with the drones it will only have its disruptor left to hurt the fighters. "Worst case" (baring special drones and things I haven't thought of!
) One fighter is crippled by the Disruptor. Fighters get 11 p-3 shots including the pods. Then impulse 1 they can fire more drones. This possibility should ensure the G1 turns off after its shot as its weapons will not have recycled quickly enough. On impulse 2 the fighters can make an HET and chase with suitable speed changes they can get range 1 again on impulse 8 and fire 8 further p-3 (worst case)
So each drone stream will take 11+8 =19 p-3 plus 3 counter drones leaving say 14 (12+2) killed and 7 needing just a single point out of a presumed 28/29. If we get lucky and a fighter isn't crippled then we get 8 more p-3 shots so on average 21 dead(18+3) and 9 damaged- oh one or two will get shot twice so 22 or 23 dead the others damaged.
This is 14 drones damaged that we won't get if we concentrate on a single but it does risk two fighter crippled that would likely be destroyed by the G1's or its drones before it could find safety. If either or both those fighters survive the disruptor then the benefits are much greater.
Sorry for the length of the last one I'm in full scheme. Put it down to my fictional characters vulcan blood.
Ghostflight finesse,
An improvement on my scheme would be to meet the drones on impulse 31 with the fighters going speed 18 and sideslipping out of line of the fighters on impulse 31. This gives some insurance against any drones in the stack being targeted on the fighters. If they are targeted on the fighters then they either slip out of the stack so as they are head on to the fighters and give there targeting away or keep the deception and stay with the stack. In the later case if the fighters fly past the drone stream on impulse 32 any drones targeting the fighters will have to HET to face them. The fighters only recourse is to pop chaff but at least they have a chance.
It does mean the drones are two hexes away for the second shot and also makes the counter drone shot a bit more tricky-the fighters have to use type-1's and rely on the atmosphere to slow the bombardment drones down just enough for them to be caught.
Scott Tenhoff:
I am not sure what you are asking.
The trick to drone bombardment versus a planet with an atmosphere is that, if you are the attacker, you want the drones to move from their maximum movement to range zero.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXXS (Bombardment drone, slow speed, i.e., speed-8), you want it to end the turn before it will enter atmosphere exactly eight hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range eight (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move eight hexes and enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #2, the drone will impact.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXX (Bombardment drone, moderate speed, i.e., speed-12), you want it to end the turn before it will enter atmosphere exactly twelve hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range twelve (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move twelve hexes and enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #2, the drone will impact.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXXM (Bombardment drone, medium speed, i.e., speed-20), you want it to end the turn before it will enter atmosphere exactly twenty hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range twenty (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move twenty hexes and enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #2, the drone will impact.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXXF (Bombardment drone, fast speed, i.e., speed-32), you want it to end the turn before it will enter atmosphere exactly thirty-two hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range thirty-two (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move thirty-two hexes and enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #2, the drone will impact.
The above is from the attacker's point of view, and should pretty much tell you what impulse I would have wanted the drones to arrive on the map had Loren Knight not apparently chosen Impulse #25.
The Defender, on the other hand, wants the drones to be one hex further away, i.e., arrive on the map one impulse later than the attacker does.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXXS (Bombardment drone, slow speed, i.e., speed-eight), you want it to be exactly nine hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range nine (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move eight hexes and stop right outside the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range one. On Impulse #4 of Turn #2, the drone will enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense will be able to fire at the drone at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #3 the drone will impact.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXX (Bombardment drone, moderate speed, i.e., speed-12), you want it to be exactly thirteen hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range thirteen (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move twelve hexes and stop right outside the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range one. On Impulse #3 of Turn #2, the drone will enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense will be able to fire at the drone at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #3 the drone will impact.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXXM (Bombardment drone, medium speed, i.e., speed-20), you want it to be exactly twenty-one hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range twenty-one (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move twenty hexes and stop right outside the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range one. On Impulse #2 of Turn #2, the drone will enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense will be able to fire at the drone at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #3 the drone will impact.
For example, if the drone was a type-IIIXXF (Bombardment drone, fast speed, i.e., speed-32), you want it to be exactly thirty-three hexes from the planet. The Defense then gets to fire at it at range thirty-three (turn #0 for this example). Then on Turn #1 the drone will move thirty-two hexes and stop right outside the atmosphere, at which point the defense gets to fire on Impulse #32 at range one. On Impulse #1 of Turn #2, the drone will enter the atmosphere, at which point the defense will be able to fire at the drone at range zero. On Impulse #1 of Turn #3 the drone will impact.
In this particular case, the drones are entering on Impulse #25, meaning they will end Turn #1 at range 93. They will end Turn #2 at range 61, will end Turn #3 at range 29, will end Turn #4 at range zero, and will impact on Impulse #1 of Turn #5.
So you can see if I was running the Klingons at optimum and set up the scenario for the Klingons to have the optimum possible chance to get the maximum number of drones through by minimizing the number of times you could fire at the closest ranges, I would have had the drones arrive on the map (range 100) on Impulse #28. If I were deliberately designing the scenario to allow the defense the maximum ability to fight the drones, I would have had the drones arrive on Impulse #29 (in both cases assuming Fast, i.e., speed-32, drones, slower drone speeds require adjustments).
This is based on the fact that much of the defense is static.
Also note that there are other tactical considerations that can define "how a thing is done". This would, for example, be a general consideration if your target was a BATS, but you have to keep in mind that you will need more drones to slip through the minefield (if you know there is one), and the BATS does have the "Wild Weasel" option, which requires that you spend some more time figuring out how many drones arrive and "go active" versus how many the BATS can kill, and etc (as in there are other considerations).
OOC
It might help to know what results the 429th wants out of this upcoming "approach phase".
do we "want" the 6 fighters of Ghost flight near the planet when the Shatter packs blossom?
do we want the Shatter packs to "blossom" at range 6 (from the planet) but still within range 5 of the Def Sats (and the trasporter repeater) so that a pilot could be transported on board the empty admn shuttle to "recover" the shuttle?
and if we do want the Admin shuttles to be at range 6...do we want the "trigger" to be the first enemy drone to come to within 12 hexes of the Admin shuttle? 8 hexes?
If the shatter packs are still on planet on turn #1 waiting for Col Knights launch order... it will still take the drone stacK (starting at range 100 on impulse #25 of turn #1) 96 impulses(3 turns) to get to range 4 on impulse #25 of turn 4.
if he orders the shatter packs to launch during turn #2 it would take (1 turn) to clear the atmosphere and 3/4 of a turn (24 impulses to move the 6 hexes to the launch position mentioned above... longer if farther to go, shorter if the launch point is less than 6 hexes from the planet.
Lots of choices... what "end result" do we want to have to be in the best possible position for the encounter?
If the fighters end up near the planet at the same time the G-1's are there with the drone stacks... it will be a "target rich envirionment" where the most drones killed will be important to the future of the planet... but it also could bring the Gunboats close to the F-16M's at a time when the F-16M's are desperately needed to kill drones... giving the G-1's effectively a "free shot" at the fighters.
At some point we need to decide what we want to happen...and be prepared to "live" with the results of our decisions.
A quick chance to pop in. I'll check back again later but I've got a quick question for SPP.
On turn zero the fighters should be capable of determining if there are G1's or anything ahead of the drones. What is the first thing Ghost flight (or the GWS) sees on Impulse 1 Turn 0?
Fighters were at range 75, and moved to range 62 on Turn #0. Your orders.
At the end of Turn #1 the fighters are to have moved back to range 45 if I recall correctly, meaning as things stand right now they are going to be 55 hexes from the range 100 setting, or about 48 hexes from the drones. The fighters have NO (zero, nada) electronic warfare support at this time that I am aware of (the EWF is with Banshee, the fighters are more than ten hexes away from their "carrier", i.e., the ground bases on the planet, and more than 15 hexes away from the GWS stations, which means that even if a GWS was trying to lend one fighter ECCM, it could not do it). The drones have four points of ECM (being small targets at that range), so the fighters have a shift of one against them (as they only have their own two points of built-in ECCM to work with) for identifying things and thus, from their standpoint, are not sure where the drones are as of yet. The Objects between the fighters and the drones are "closer" (they can tell that), but also have an ECM shift in their favor, a larger one in fact . . . so the fighters basically do not know anything specific.
So on Turn Zero, the fighters know NADA (and turn Zero was a movement made by the forces before entering the map). The above information is what they know on Turn #1 when they get back to range 45 (assuming you are not calling them in closer).
But basically your set up right now means that at the end of Turn #1 (when the drones will enter the map and move seven times), your six fighters on the map can tell you not a blessed thing.
The GWS can at the end of Turn #1, however, in its arc (assuming it is set for gathering tac intel and puts up six points of ECCM, two built-in and four powered) tell you precisely where the drones are, but has to report that it still cannot identify the things in front of the drones, or precisely where they are due to electronic jamming.
Col Knight?
Please review Stewart Faziers post concerning firing phaser IV's at range 100 mark at drones.
(and other ranges as they approach Cassandra IV).
there would be 3 shots by the phaser 4's, and virtually no chance of killing a drone... but if 1 to 3 drones could be damaged, a phaser 3 shot during the final impulses as the damaged drone enters the atmosphere will kill it outright ... whereas if the drone is left undamaged... a phaser 3 might not kill it...thus letting the drone inflict damage on the planet.
NOT telling you to fire, sir... but wanted to remind you that the 100 hex range is Stewarts recommendation ... and if you do not include any instructions concerning the point... it will result in a missed firing opportunity.
Sir.
I'm whiped out. I wish I wasn't.
At the end of the turns the Ph-IV's may fire at drones. If there is a closer target (a G1?) the damage will likely be shrugged off so drones are fine. Only 1 in 6 chance of hitting but that's better than nothing.
SPP: Both GWS's should have been on max ECCM gathering intel ever since I was at the Governors party.
I'm sorry but did I recall the sensor pod from Ghost flight. I had ordered it mounted and even though I goofed on one of the reasons for ordering in mounted I thought I was commited to having it on. I don't care which fighter so CFant can decide.
Quote:The above information is what they know on Turn #1 when they get back to range 45 (assuming you are not calling them in closer).
Not at this point. I want them to stay hot and get a fix on something. If it's a G1 or ship then fall back to 15. If it's just drones (assuming speed 32) then launch and fall back enough to consistantly stay ahead of the drones by at least ten hexes. Turn and launch, fall back. Turn and launch, fall back.
OOC
Loren, what about the idea to set up a "shatter pack" zone on half the planet and the fighters operating in the other hemisphere?
that way if you have the shatter packs concentrate on hex sides F,A,B the fighters could safely operate on C,D,E?
When the Shatter packs Blossom, the planet would be in the way of the t6's targeting the fighters and any drones they might have launched... while the 3 shatter packs we have available (with 1 more loading) can supplement the direct fire point defense on planet hex sides F,A,B and have a line of sight to drones approaching from directions E and C.
One further benefit to this deployment would match the shatter packs against the inbound PF's (if they really are there) on hex row spines F and B since the G-1K of A was delayed by Banshee flight. its a small thing but its one less PF able to shoot at the shatter packs before they are able to blossom.
Loren Knight:
On the GWS: Uh huh . . . and the information given is what they are able to give you at this time ASSUMING THAT THEY WERE.
I will note, however, that there is no doubt that SOMETHING is between the drones and the planet in EACH direction. IDENTIFYING the SOMETHINGs is currently the problem, and it cannot be done because the SOMETHINGs have more jamming than the GWS can put out counter-jamming to see it.
As to the Sensor Pod. Given the apparent disconnect on whether or not it could lend EW, and your apparent desire at the time that it was mounted in order to be used to lend EW, I was not going to stick you with it.
So we are at something of an impasse on it. Note that if it was mounted IN ADDITION TO A PHASER POD, the particular flight of fighters it is with will be a tad slower (speed 25 with mid-turn speed changes vice speed 26 with mid-turn speed changes, which is itself vice speed 27 with mid-turn speed changes if no pods were carried). Unless of course the pod or pods are replacing drones.
Even if the Sensor Pod was on one of the fighters, at the end of Turn #0 the available information does not change, although there would be a change of information during Turn #1.
In this case gaining informatin as early as possible has always been my intent so I feel obligated to leave the sensor pod on. Stopping drones is also a primary task and since the planet is stationary the extra bit of speed is not all that vital.
If the fighters turn early enough I see no way for anything to gain too close of a shot on them before nearing the planetary defenses.
Jeff Wile: I get back to you in a few.
OOC
Loren, you might consider arming the last Admin Shuttle as a standard Scatter pack... one phaser 3 wont make that much difference to the ~150 drones headed Cassandr IV way... but the PF's might might decide to "play" after the drone strike arrives... having the scatter pack available after turn 5 would give you one more option if the PF's are more effective than I expect... or if they decide to "duke it out" with the 429th phaser IV batteries.
besides, it'll give Chris Fants deck crews something to do! 
We are thinking alike, Jeff. Nothing like a shatterpack to make a PF think twice or thrice.
Loren? Shatter pack or scatter pack?
It would make a difference.
Shatter. 12 Type-VI.
Jeff, have you never had to face, in your ship, a mess of Type VI's before?
Sure they only do 2 points each but it's twelve target to get rid of. Unless a PF is able to out run it there is going to be quite a chunk of damage that it cannot stop. A Scatter pack will do NO damage if all six drones are destroyed.
A shatter pack can be far more effective.
SPP: Question, If a Shatter Pack is released in orbit around a planet with the Type-VI's set to random can the sub-munitions target the planet of bases on the planet. I'm suddenly realizing that this might be possible as I haven't yet seen a rule on the subject.
Alternatively I could elect to control the drones but I don't believe that would stop the targeting. And if we drop control of the Type-VI's they would just control themselves. Right?
I may order WBP installed ont eh SP's and they may be launched early pending SPP answers.
Jeff Wiles request for a SCATTER pack might be a better choice after all.
Loren: The problem with dogfight drones against PFs is how few hexes the PF needs to back up to let the drones run out. Making the PF dawdle for half a turn might not have a decisive impact. (This is predicated on having the shatterpack deploy at range 8 where the drones are self-guiding and before the disruptors on PFs kill the shatterpack.)
I would suggest only using random targeting on drones (which still might hit our DefSats). For PFs as targets, entire shatterpacks or scatterpacks should be targeted on the specific unit. Otherwise, not enough drones will go for the target.
I think Jeff's point is to have one shuttle prepped with Type-I drones to hurt a PF or at least make the PF run away for a turn. This will reduce the number of drones that can be killed but those are the decisions you get paid for. You don't have to decide on targeting instructions until you decide to launch so stay flexible.
Captain Stovell looked over the space combat board. Banshee flight was just on screen labelled in black on a blue ground its fuzzy companion detailed G1KA white on black.
The board updated and Ghost flights two sections were seen moving back towards the planet. Heading the same way five drone swarms tagged DBB(swarm) to DBF (swarm) and ahead of them leading the attack five fuzzy undetailed images, probably more G1s.
Fear, excitement, anger, Stovell could sense the emotions of the rest of the command personel but they had no hold on him. Strange things emotions, powerful at motivating but often the cause of errors. It was his job to ensure no errors effected the performance of the planets three gun batteries.
"Guns, please confirm the following targeting priorities as contingency orders in case of communications failure.
Main guns alpha
Beyond 25KK fire on undamaged drones unless a G1 gives you a down shield and a firing solution better than minimal.
Main guns beta
At 25KK or closer fire on G1s priority to those nearest our fighters.
Main guns subsidary
Wait until full charge has stabilized (ooc imp25) before firing and you may delay until impulse 32 if you think you will get a better targeting solution.
Point defense phasers gama
Concentrate on drones one phaser each, damaged drones have priority. The aim is to reduce the number of drones impacting a facing of the planet below the devestation threashold(OOC that's 16 or less) in the following order of priority. A,D,C,E,B,F.
Sensors epsilon
Contingency for EW keep at full ECCM.
That is all
Stovell out."
SPP a few rule questions have come up especially over Shatterpack targeting which you may have missed in such a number of posts.
Will a balistic Shatterpack trigger on friendly units? (We know they will target friendly units once triggered)
Can a shatterpack launched from a planet deploy once it is "launched" but before it has moved once (to be in the atmosphere)?
Does it take 32 impulses to get airbourne or just an impulse 32 move?
And a couple of questions not asked in previous posts but that have occured to me.
Can a Scatter or Shatter pack be launched from the planet at a speed graeter than one?
I ask as fighters would be limited to 1+half their maximum speed (by unplotted acceleration) on exiting the atmosphere and unmanned shuttles aren't even allowed plotted speed changes?
The other is on tactical intelligence I realise that to gain prolonged observation bonuses the target needs to be in the same band for three or more turns but I wonder whether planetary or base mounted special sensors should gain some advantage along these lines for having (presumably) intimate knowledge of their nearby space?