IIRC, type VI drones do 4 damage to PFs, not 2. I could be wrong.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 09:53 am: Edit

Loren, I meant scatter packs with 6 type 1 drones (preferrably with ATG).

the range of a type 1 drone (speed fast) is 3 turns or a total of 96 hexes.

type VI drones are much shorter ranged.

While SPP will know the last admin shuttle has 6 type 1 drones, the klingon drone stacks are committed with set instructions(programing)...and the gunboats (if they close the range to cassandra IV) will very likely have used up all or most of their point defense capacity... the type 1's might hit...and do significant damage.

If we are going to stop the drone stacks from hitting the planet... we will need to drive the gunboats off to a "safe" distance where their weapons are less effective. We need to do that so the fighters will be able to use their phaser gatlings on the drones entering the atmosphere.

and yes, I have faced shatter packs... but I tend to have a high speed for my ships ("speed is life!") and the endurance of type 6's is not so long that I have to make a large detour before coming back to kill the launcher...type 1's (while fewer) have a greater potential to do damage.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:59 am: Edit

I agree with you guys.

Load the fourth Admin with Type-1F (sorry, no ATG available).

If all shatter packs are loaded at this point the fit them with WBP. Depending on the G1's actions I think that we will launch them early and head off drones at a distance so the packs blossom beyond R8 from any fighters.

I think I figured out why the G1's are so hard to see. They are escorted by ECM drones. They should be getting considerably easier to spot soon enough. I was perplexed for a bit wondering how a PF could generate more than 6 EW unless they were all scout PF (not possible and they are spead out too much to benenfit from a scout).

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:39 am: Edit

Erratic Maneuvers?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:49 am: Edit

Captain Grafton crouched in his foxhole and read the command group status reports on his pad.

He wasn't positive, but weren't there control limits and tracking range problems associated with drones? He was almost sure one of the figher jocks had bragged that he had more ability to control drones than a Phaser defense station.

Can they control 3 or 6 drones at once? Can they control all the shuttles while drone launching? Will there be time for my standby pilots at the GMG to be transported aboard the shuttles after the drones launch? Am I going to have to fill out the paperwork to document their combat loss and request replacement? Will they take it out of my pay, like they did that darn lost sounding geology scanner until I can proive it's not my fault?

The streaming data seemed to multiply every minute. "Jeez, this makes my head hurt even more," he thought.

GnySgt Rock sprawled in his fighting position 200 meters distant from his Captain and only gave the strategic data flow a bare glance. He DID check his tactical pad every 15 seconds like clockwork. Every 2 minutes he audited the micropings from every squad attached to Defense Company. No problems. "Dang, I'm good."

The veteran Gunnery Sgt again remembered the reasons he had refused a "mustang" commission years ago. "All I want is a rifle and a few marines at my back." He had told the Brigadier. "Officers spent WAY too much time worrying over things they couldn't change."

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:24 pm: Edit

No, not EM, that generates only 4 ECM.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:42 pm: Edit

OOC,

A simpler approach to driving the G1's off with Ghost flights two sections.

Turn to face them (maybe a HET) then on impulse 32 launch three type-Is because of the impulse 32 launch the G1 can't launch any counter drones until the following turn. Then follow the drones in launch six more drones on impulse 8. Even if the G1 can get two sets of counter drones out before being forced to turn away I think the G1 will be forced out of position covering the bombardment drones long enough for the fighters to get two shots at the bombardment drones and run for cover.

The exact timming of this so as to straff the drones over a turn break either impulse 25 and impulse 1 or impulse 32 followed by impulse 8 I haven't tried to calculate yet but the no nearer the planet than 29 hexes rule applies.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Loren,

A PF can generate 6 ECM and use EM for 10 EW.
Small target modifiers probably mean it doesn't even need to bother with EM against our ground bases and 6 ECM will give a 2 shift against our fighters.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:44 pm: Edit

IIRC, PFs get the nimble/small target ECM bonus at some range. Combine that with their built in ECM, their 2 points of swing EW, and a point or two of generated and they would exceed 6 ECM.

Of course, since I haven't played SFB in more than a Decade, I could be wrong

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Question: If a shatter pack is released in orbit around a planet with the type-VIs set to random can the sub-munitions target the planet or bases on the planet.

REPLY: Yes. See (R1.14C2). The shuttle in question is launched from the planet, so it was launched from less than range four. So when it releases its submunitions (type-VI drones), they can target the ground bases. If the shuttle is five hexes from the planet when it releases, then no.

Question: Will a ballistic shatter pack trigger on friendly units? (We know they will target friendly units once triggered.)

REPLY: Rule (F4.4) says to use (FD7.3), and rule (FD7.31) says "enemy ship".

Question: Can a shatter pack launched from a planet deploy once it is "launched" but before it has moved once (to be in the atmosphere)?

REPLY: The shatter pack can launch while inside the atmosphere, but if it does, it comes to a stop (as a result of releasing the sub munitions) (FD7.415), and immediately crashes (P2.80). There is no provision for the shatter pack to "hover" in the atmosphere after releasing its drones so that you can transport a pilot aboard.

Question: Does it take 32 impulses to get airborne or just an Impulse #32 move?

REPLY: Rule (P2.412) is all there is for shuttles and ships, i.e., it takes off on Impulse #32.

Question: Can a scatter pack or shatter pack be launched from the planet at a speed greater than one? I ask as fighters would be limited to 1+half their maximum speed (by unplotted acceleration) on exiting the atmosphere and unmanned shuttles aren't even allowed plotted speed changes?

REPLY: According to (FD1.8) a seeking shuttle moves as a drone except as modified by that rule, and therefore I would have to rule that it operates under (P2.85) under the general class of seeking weapons. Perhaps because it has no need to maintain conditions conducive to the survival of sentient life forms?

Question: The other is on tactical intelligence. I realize that to gain prolonged observation bonuses the target needs to be in the same band for three or more turns, but I wonder whether planetary or base mounted special sensors should gain some advantage along these lines for having (presumably) intimate knowledge of their nearby space?

REPLY: Nothing in the rules allows this, and you have the eternal problem that there are things going on in the background. If special sensors and other means of gathering data were foolproof, then there would be no smugglers, no Orion Pirates, no such thing as being surprised at a low weapons status, etc.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:56 pm: Edit

I guess you guys are intending to make me go back and read the entire topic from when this little event started.

I have stated several times now that we are at the end of Turn #0. I have conceded the third shuttle was at a base to be loaded.

I am NOT going to concede that the remaining two shuttles are magically now at the fighter bases also if there is not a missive noting that they were sent there sometime well before this point. If they were not . . . well it is the end of Turn #0.

I am sorry, but I have made allowances for Loren Knight being busy (we all of us have real lives to deal with). I have put off the resolution of this quite a bit. I DID allow you ample "warning". (It would have been just as easy to simply state that you have detected a drone strike inbound at range 150, it is now Turn #1 . . . good luck. And such would have been within the realm of possibility.)

But I did allow you plenty of time to make decision and issue orders.

If the shuttles have not moved to the bases err this point, they are not going to be there now.

I will, as I have said, adjust this attitude on my part (and I apologize if it comes across as harsh, I do not mean it to be so) if any one can point to messages where the shuttles were ordered moved to the fighter bases earlier.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 04:55 pm: Edit

SPP: What you say is what I expected things were like. I with you. End of turn 0. A-OK. At the end of turn 0 I've decided that a fourth Admin needs to be loaded as a scatterpack.

As of the end of turn 0 there should be two fully loaded Shatterpacks (one each FGB-S), on mostly loaded ShP moved from the GMG to the Annapolis FGB-S. And an order to star a fourth SCATTER pack (6xtype-1). I cannot recall if I had ordered the all Admins to the FGB-S or not. So the fourth admin might have to begin transfer from the GMG to the FGB-S(A) on turn 1.

On impulse 25 Ghost flight will be at R45 from the planet. Banshee flight will be (?).

Both GWS are at full ECCM.

Tomorrow, unfortuately, I'll be out of town for a good part of the day. Things go messed up with the schedule and the job will take one more day.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 04:57 pm: Edit

I should add that I'll be around the whole of next week working at my home shop with only occasional outings.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Loren,

By my estimates, on Turn 0, impulse 25 (which is when the rest of the drones cross the 100-hex threshold, right?), Banshee flight is about 120 hexes out from the planet.

SPP, does that sound about right to you?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 08:09 pm: Edit

PF ECM -
Self (0-6) [2 swing, + 4 generated]
STM (4) [Nimble > 30]
PFC (2)
ECM drone (3)

Total 9-15, assuming 6 ECCM, +1 - +3 shift

Range 100 is S5 to GWS and GBs, placing the PF in S2-S4 brackets (they can be tracked by their MF [being 0.2] but nothing else will show)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Stewart: Nice, thanks.

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 04:48 am: Edit

It is perhaps worth considering a new tacint gathering technique.

Run one of the other bases up to 6 ECCM and have the GWS lend it 6 ECCM. The lower EW shift on the 'PF' column for that base may be better than looking on the PFS column with a higher shift.

If a GWS doesn't count as a PFS on the tacint table (and is thus completely useless at tacint gathering...) then this is DEFINITELY the way to go.

The maths would go something like:

IF the Range to target is 76-100 then:

If the Target ECM is 7-8 then a 12 ECCM GB will gain level B, while a 6ECCM GWS will gain only level S5

For Target ECM 9 the levels are A and S5.

For Target ECM 10-11 the levels are A and S4.

For Target ECM 12 the levels are S5 and S4

For Target ECM 13-15 the levels are S4 and S4-S3

So in that range bracket the 12 ECCM GB wins.

In the 51-75 range bracket the 6 ECCM GWS gains one level, but at best breaks even compared with the 12 ECCM GB.

Note that the target can only get into the 13-15 ECM bracket if he has an ECM drone, and in that case you'll know the exact hex and speed of the ECM drone itself, and thus know something of the target.

This strategy costs energy (13 power - 12 for the ECCM and one for the sensor) - but energy is cheap on turn 1...

How are your power grids looking?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:30 am: Edit

David Crew:

A GWS does count at a PFS on the Tac Int Table.

There is a gray area on whether or not a GWS can lend ECCM to another ground base. This has generally been answered "no" because it opens a can of worms to allow it. The GWS can lend EW to units in space above the planet (including OEW against an enemy unit). But the limits of lending to another ground base are somewhat difficult to define.

The problems are that it is possible for several ground bases to be in one GCL, it is also possible for several ground bases on hex side of a planet to be in separate GCLs. And of course you have the question of whether or not the GWS in 2215A can lend EW to the ground base in 2215B (this has nothing to do with Loren Knight's battalion, it is just an example). Even more, can the GWS in 2215A lend EW to the ground base in 2215D?

So in general the answer is "no", and that is partly because we have never previously had to really sit down and consider the variables.

For example, as Ground Bases operate as PFs, could the ground bases of a single battalion be considered to be a "flotilla" and all benefit from the GWS? But that gets you back to "what about bases of the battalion that are not in line of sight of the GWS?

For now, the ruling has been that a PDU is not a Flotilla, and the GWS cannot lend EW to any other ground base, even one nominally co-located with it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:35 am: Edit

Interesting. I have to admit that I can be a bit stuck on a House EW system in thinking (in which only scout sensors can generate EW other than natural sources). I do know the real rules pretty well but I call on you guys out there to make sure I don't goof on EW rules.

I will likely try that. I guess I should start planning my T1 EA.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:51 am: Edit

General OOC question-

Should the GWS consider using OEW against one of the PF's in hex row C and the other GWS (assuming it is "in arc") use OEW against the PF in hex row E when they get into range?

IIRC the GWS could lend ECM or ECCM to a single unit... but all units firing at a PF that has OEW targeted on it (the PF) would benefit from the OEW. (of course, this is assuming there are PF's in hex rows C and E).

This way not only the fighters gain somewhat from the use of the OEW but the Ground based Phaser IV's can get to improve their EW shift somewhat.

Just asking.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Jeff: If I'm understanding you, that's not how OEW works. OEW attempts to "blind the sensors" of the targetted unit, so that any other unit the targetted unit fires at benefits from ECM points equal to the number of OEW points lent to the targetted unit. It won't help anyone shooting at the targetted PF (in this case), but it will make it harder for the PF to hit anything it is shooting at.

And that might very well be a good idea, especially if we suspect the PFs are there to pop SPs before they can blossom. A special sensor might get lucky and turn off 3 drones, but if OEW prevents a PF from popping a shatterpack before it can blossom, then that's a dozen drones (we can hope) that will be killed.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Loren,

his amybe too late but.....

If you intend to use Ghost flight in its two sections to drive off the G1's on facings C and E (certainly my preference) The best approach is probably to finish the turn the drones end at 93 hexes from the planet at 58 hexes out rather than 45 so they are 35 hexes from the drones AND to launch three type-1's at the covering G1.

The sections can then spend the following turn moving to range 68 from the planet to meet the drones on impulse 25 at range 1 (HET to get r1 again on impulse 1~ I think two range 1 shots are better than one range zero and one range 2)
During this turn they can launch 3 type-1s and three type-VIs at "thier" G1 which should keep it out of their hair long enough to straff the drones without interference and maybe even get under cover of the planets guns.

Loren you still need to give SPP any pre-turn one instructions for the Shatterpacks. Unless the intention is to still have them on the deck as turn 1 starts. In that case I think you need to tell him as its not clear from my reading of your posts. No criticism intended it may just be me.

Oh if altering Ghost flights position isn't an option the same thing can be done starting from range 26 on impulse 32 at the end of "next" turn.

OK I confess I'm unsure whether turn 1 ends with the drones at 93 hexes or starts with them there.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Captain Stovell looks at the board,

"Target will be entering range directly. Guns C and E I want you to engage the drone stream heading for D unless Col Loren advises otherwise.
Different tagets please gentlemen. Gun A take the stream in direction B likewise"

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:13 pm: Edit

As I understand tyhe situation, the Admin shuttles from the fighter bases and the GMG are the 3 shuttles that SPP is talking about as being ready for use. I would guess that any shuttle from a base tha tis on the same hex side as a fighter base could be AT the fighter base in short (SPP defigned) order...


By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 01:51 pm: Edit
"... 4) UNORDIR, admin shuttles are being scrambled now with full crews and will be routed towards (where ever) under the presumption that you plan to use them as scatter/ shatter packs... 6) GMG will have pilots on standby at the transporter room so they can subsequently be transported aboard "inert" shuttles..."


By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:55 pm: Edit

"...3) GMG admin shuttle is enroute to (wherever) for loading as a shatter pack...."

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:30 pm: Edit

The line from HQ came alive with Captain Stovell's announcement. "Well, will help a bit there, won't it?" "Yes, sir, just a bit. I'll coordinate with Bravo Battery." "By all means, do so." Lt Frazier looked over the tactical board, looking over the drove wave, less than 180 drones total. Each also seemed to have an escorting PF and the main guns would have only 4 ranged shots (3 if the PF came inside the 25 marker) plus 4 from the treys before the drones hit. No less really as the fighters would account for some as Banshee had done and the lieutenant was pretty sure the CO would make the best use of his shuttle corps as well. Though there was something about the numbers that began to nag...