Archive through May 27, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
The "X" Files:
General synopsis:
Archive through May 27, 2005
Looks okay, John. I'd add one thing. What is the proposed mission of X2? That will have a lot to do with how the other questions are answered. If, for example, a person wants X2 to supplant X1 as the new front line combat ship of the fleet, then that person would answer the other questions differently than someone who wants X2 to be more general purpose.
As far as electing a czar, what you're really doing is electing a moderator...someone to keep things on track and not get side tracked with little details that don't affect the overall evolution of the product.
Sorry, John, but these are just the points that have being discused all the time. Somehow I feel that is not what SVC meant by "Key decisions".
OTOH I think they follows from the "key decision".
Mike,
OK,
Add
Intended Niche for X2 ships
A. X2 replaces X1 and Standard-Tech ships as the new technological standard
B. X2 as a limited-run of "elite" ships alongside X1 and/or GW tech ships
C. Something else
Any other questions to be added?
Are AP2R's appropriate? Battery capacity?
Can someone formulate a good "any box" question?
Carl,
Yes, we've gone 'round and 'round on these questions. We have no single answer to them. The answers nail down the foundation assumptions for X2, important toward building a workable proposal.
John, but the foundation is not made up of the carachteristics of ships, which point 1-5 are.
It is possible to make decisions on the points above that will make ships that won't work well in the SFU history.
I wrote about this recently, and my idea of key decisions (which I am sure are not the same as SVCs idea) would perhaps look like this:
1. During the timeperiod the X2 ships are design the galaxy is feeling the pressure from the Andro invasion. Several races loose most of their territory and have their economies reduced. What would this have for consequence on the design of X2 ships?
a)None
b)General efforts to keep the cost of the ships down.
c) Varies with the relative wealth of the empires
2. X2 ships appear in 205, just two years after Op Unity. Should this mean their designs reflect they
a) are designed to fight the Andros?
b) are not built with an specific enemy in mind.
(note that a) does not mean the ships can fight other than Andros. I have an idea for Anti-Andro photons that also would be usefull vs. anyone else)
These are what I can think of right now, and, as I said, I doubt these are what SVC had in mind.
Carl,
Well, for #1 I'd say something different; D, which is to have the best small fleet you can get. Lesser territory equals less need for big fleets, and ships will need to be able to handle a vareity of missions effectively on their own. They would be overall better for multiple missions than an X1 ship, but maybe not as good at pure combat as X1 because combat is what X1 was made for.
For #2, I'd say B. X1 were ships made to fight Andros. X2, to be worth the cost, would need to be better all around; longer lasting, better weapons, better general systems, faster, etc. But not more powerful in combat, because it isn't needed when X2 first comes out.
Hm, modularity would certainly be a possibility for X2, however I wonder if a ship that have the combat capabilities of X1 ships would be used for mundane things, like cargo moving, repair, minesweeping etc. when it's the survival of the races that is at stake. Also I guess SVC would say they got non-X ships for non-combat missions. But perhaps combat modularity? I can certainly see Fighter modules, Pf modules, weapon modules, sensor modules.
That point about smaller territories is true. But If anything it would reduce the need for strategic speed
But I guess the x-engines are here to stay.
For #2 remember X1 ships were built BEFORE the Andros. One could say they were designed from Y170 to Y182 (it takes time building ships. Heh, even a fighter like the F-22 took close to 20 years before it got into service) and entered service at end of the GW. Lucky thing for the GW powers they got any around when the Andros come calling...
Still I can see your point; the X2 ships need to contribute with something, or else they would not have been built. But weapons, power protection AND cool abilities will make these ships too expensive.
I don't think we can get everything. Myself I am content with ships that are equally armed (or even less)and protected as X1 ships, but that have MANY MORE cool abilites. Those abilites would in themselves improve the ships combat power.
That last point of yours btw, But not more powerful in combat, because it isn't needed when X2 first comes out.
... well, how did the GP knew that? That they would win the Andro war was not a certaintity(sp?) you kow. One could use the F-22 analogy here, that fighter was built to fight and win over the Soviet 5th generation fighters. But cirkumstances have changed a bit. In that particular case it did so just a few years after the F-22 project got go-ahead. Which must have been a bummer
True, but X2 doesn't actually get produced until after Op Unity. The technology may be in development before then, but the actual implementation wasn't until later. The combat capabilities of X2 are close to equal to X1 not because they are designed to be, but because of the nature of advancing tech. Take a late GW war destroyer, and stack it up against an EY cruiser; bye-bye, cruiser. The destroyer wasn't designed specifically to overpower an older cruiser, it just happened because it uses new technology. X2 should be similar; better in some ways because it's new, but not because it's made for it.
So now the circle is complete. We come back to the basic question, "what is the purpose of X2?"
Mike, yes, but you can't just DESIGN new ships on the spot. BUILDING time won't take more than a year, or so, it's all the DESIGN work that takes time.
You simply are stuck with outdated requirements!
In other words; you are always equipped to fight the PAST wars. Rarely have you the equipment to fight the coming ones.
Note that I am not shouting just putting emphasis on the important points
Brodie, my answer is; to fight the Andros. But because of the time it takes to design the ships they won't enter service until the war is over.
This won't be a bad thing for us players of course. As I wrote above I think Anti-andro stuff could probably be used vs the other Galactic powers too.
For Y205, my answer is:
- explore the frontier
- find new resources to exploit
- be able to survive superior threat encounters
- inform/warn the homeland
The result of that is ships with "long legs," flexible ships with the capability to perform a variety of missions (from exploring strange new worlds to fighting off competitors), and ships that economically make sense (can't build everything we want so build what we need).
This essentially defines an XCA. The rest of the Fleet exists to support this core group of ships, from performing the bulk of homeland defense to reaching out and supporting the new ships as required (combat and logistics). Most of that exists as GW and X1 ships, but there will be a need for a family of "lesser" X2 ships to fill in the gaps.
As time goes by (i.e. beyond Y215) the needs and purpose of the Fleet will change. The last of the GW ships will be falling apart, X1 ships will be at a crossroads for refit or retirement, and the state of the Galaxy will be different. Note that I haven't even mentioned the Xorks yet as likely nobody will yet be aware of them.
I'm coming late to the conversation, so pardon me if I hit topics that have already been beat to death. (I have read the archives of this thread, but not all of the other related threads.)
= = = = =
The big question to set the design direction of X2 is "What are these ships for?" That will frame the design philosophy.
Lets look at the time period. The General War-ISC Pacification-Andro War are over. Everybody is tired of fighting. The fighting has been very expensive. Now there's no immediate need for GW-era size fleets and firepower.
1. Large numbers of ships are expensive to maintain. You do it in wartime, because to not to is to lose.
2. The GW CW/DW/Hot warp designs sacrificed endurance (in both range/time-on-station & crew comfort) and probably have increased maintenance costs in order to get more firepower in a hull. These ships need to be retired/mothballed. Since these ships were filling the roles of the pre-war DD/CL, that role is now a void.
3. DNs & SCS hulls (and to some degree CCs) were expensive to build and have name-mystique. There would be a reluctance to send these to the breakers (due to being replaced by X2 ships).
4. X1 ships are your heavy-hitters. By now these are the elite units every Admiral wants when it's time to "Go in Harm's Way".
5. For the first time since before the General War, you're building for peace-time needs.
Here's what I see as both the needs of the Admiralty and the economic/"civilian leadership" goal on X2.
- Retire the most worn-out/expensive to operate of the GW-era ships.
- Have a design that lets fewer ships do more. This means more like the pre-war ships with more hull (crew accomodations, fuel, etc.), labs, shuttles, etc.
- Ability to still cover the frontier, colonies, police-work, disaster support, etc. for less expense. But still be able to operate without a safety-net.
= = = = =
SUMMARY:
GW-era is firepower-through-numbers and speciality ships for special missions.
X1 is increased firepower density per hull.
X2 is more utility on a smaller hull with less on-going cost. (Which can still be better systems than X1.) Strategic speed and endurance/toughness/survivability are required since there will be fewer ships in the fleet. Ships can do any role.
Gary,
That's a good summation, and very much in line with what several people believe, myself included. X2 should look/feel alot like GW, but with newer and better stuff.
Mike R., yep except I would say "immediately before GW." To some that would imply that lessons learned from the wars would simply be ignored, which is ridiculous.
How does that boil down to a single "bullet point" sentence?
What variations on the theme should be listed?
Gary and Brodie, the ships you are talking about would come into service by Y215 cirka, I think.
That because the need for these ships would not be realised until the Andro Invasion is over; hence they would not be designed until that time (post Y203).
John, what about this?
• Ships designed for the Andro war enter service Ca Y205, and is later supplemented by ships designed for the post-war needs.
Would this give us the double number of ships ?
Well we can dream!
But at the very least the ships designed for war and peace time exploration would be different designs.
John, it's a bit late, and maybe that explains why I don't understand what you mean by "variations on a theme". Would be grateful to you if you explained.
Tnx
The Early-X2 (Y205+) Fleet:
- An "elite" core group of ships built utilizing matured advanced technology in an economically-strained but expansive period, that provide maximized flexibility for long-endurance missions on the frontier, can survive initial encounters against superior threats to warn or inform the homeland, and allow the bulk of the existing Fleet to support and defend homeland reconstruction.
Yes it's wordy but it makes the point. This primarily covers XCAs and to a small extent XDDs (which replace light cruisers).
Variations on a theme include:- small group of X2 carriers for patrols
- X2 logistics force to support the frontier forces
- X2 frigate force to defend critical reconstruction efforts
Quote:Mike, yes, but you can't just DESIGN new ships on the spot. BUILDING time won't take more than a year, or so, it's all the DESIGN work that takes time.
You simply are stuck with outdated requirements!
In other words; you are always equipped to fight the PAST wars. Rarely have you the equipment to fight the coming ones.
Well, yes and no. It's true that you don't design ships on the spot, and you build for the conflict you are involved in. But, in many ways, the X2 ships posted thus far are equipped to fight the Andros. Take an XCA with four 10 point photons. Increased crunch? Oh, yes...definately a good thing when facing Andros. So that weapon is designed to meet that threat, but kept when the threat is gone.
This leads me to an important point, one we've danced around but that I don't believe has been articulated yet. War breeds specialization. In war time, you get minesweepers to sweep and lay mines, escorts to be with your carriers, tenders for your PF's, and up-gunned ships of every conceiveable kind, from battle frigates to heavy dreadnoughts. None of these have a place in the peace time fleet, which is much more general purpose.
To me, the X2 fleets should be similar in mission and concept to those from before the General War. The trick is, they are two generations removed in technology and are therefore much more dangerous and effective than any ship of the same design seen before. A Fed XCA might have six phasers just like the old one, but they're much better phasers. It would have four photons, but bigger and better ones. Better labs, more power, longer range, faster speed...all because of new tech. But the mission remains the same, even though much of the technology is the result of war-time R&D.
I think Brodies "mission statement" is right on, and makes a good starting point.
Most X2 technology was certainly developed during the Andro war and if the ANdro war was still going then X2 ships would be designed to fight them. Indeed there are likely blue prints for hard core X2 battle designs. But these designs would be changed in Y204 when construction begins (for introduction in Y205).
Still we have what between the empires? IMO, an uneasy peace. Everybody is weakened and tired of war but the problem is that everyone IS weakened but do not KNOW everyone else is tire of war. Everyone is vulnerable to attack in Y204. If the Klingons were to somehow muster up a quick 100 D5X the Federation could fall for ever. Does the Federation KNOW everything the Klingosn are doing? DO the Klingons KNOW everything the Feds are up to, everywhere?
How does anybody know for sure that the others aren't interested in taking advantage of a weakened enemy tire of war. Certainly the Romulans are thinking they'll be attacked by someone somewhere.
There are people in Star Fleet who have known NOTHING but war. Young D5X commanders in Y200-Y205 were born in Y172-Y176. Peace is forign to half the citizens of the empires.
And yet the Empires will be looking toward peace and recovery but defense will also be on the forefront of all military thinking.
Remember there was no flat out victory for either side in the GW. Everyone still had their empires intact. At best the Allies stopped the war but not by eliminating their enemies. The Colition lost because they didn't elimiate their enemies either.
The Empires are now looking at each other and saying "Whew, OK now THAT's over are we going to have peace for a while?"
"I don't know, I guess that would be good. How about you?"
"Ya sure. Let's have peace."
"Alright peace it is."
AND EVERYONE WALKS AWAY LOOKING BACK OVER THEIR SHOULDERS.
Here is my take on the role of 2X ships.
Background:
Most if not all of the War Classes CW/DW/HDW have been retired mothballed or sold of to nuetral planets. Many of the more capable ships have been kept but retired from active service. Except for units that are adequte at preforming role's that don't require X tech. (Like a MS keeping up or removing leftover minefields from the various wars.)
CVA's SCS's and other maxed out SC2 ships are kept in inactive reserves. (Not stuck in Organian Orbit as shown in one scenario.). They are great force multipliers and it doesn't matter what their startegic speed would be if they were assigned defensive duties. Home World protection or defending a Fleet SB.
Research Background:
Y205 ships are the fruits of research that proceeded (admittedly slowly) even during the Andromedan war. The funding simply wasn't there to to do more than build one or two system prototypes during the war. Anticipating the end of the war more funding was diverted to developing the technologies that had been researched. (Whatever the 2X goodies turn out to be.) Enabling the breakthroughs that resulted in the construction of the first 2X ships.
Active Role:
2X ships have the same requirements of performng peace time missions as any other non combat specialized unit. IE: 1X ships could peform many duties but they were optimized for combat and would adeqautely continue in that role. They could do non combat jobs but there wasn't much practical difference (other than strategic speed) between a GSC and a GSCX except in combat.
2X ships were designed (IMO) as multi-role ships. General purpose that could perform in combat. Having some HDW type multi system functionality (boxes) would have been a major consideration. Giving some specialization to a general unit.
Combat Role:
EY MY GW and even X Tech ships were all designed to fight at basically the same range brackets with only a modest improvement at expanded ranges over the previous generation. Andromedan ships had trouble engaging at the sorts of ranges that Fleets preferred. So research went into expanding the long range abilities of almost all ships. Most of these fell apart under even 2X technology limits. The Phaser-5 was one of the major success stories of the expanded range concept.
Letting a 2X ship engage at ranges thst weren't as effective for the non 2X ships. And consequently helping preserve the existance of the 2X unit in combat more than simply upping it's defensive abilities, by increasing it's shields or even improvements in defensive fire. (Much like a 1X ship can engage at slightly longer ranges and produce almost equivalent results as a GW ship would at closer ranges. (Or even a MY over an EY ship.)
Phaser-5
The Phaser-5 has replaced in deployment the Phaser-1. (The Ph1 is essentially the P2 of the 2X period.) There has been a great deal of discussion on exactly how powerful the P5 is to be, or even how much it will cost to fire. (Some prefer 1 and others 1.5.)
The P-6 is the 2X phaser equivalent of the P3 for the P5.
Mike and Gary have pretty much encapsulated exactly what I've been thinking. Loren's covered the post-war tension (it's a Cold War folks). I also know we're not the only ones thinking these things as Kenneth indicates.
A critical point that Mike brought up is that X2 technology enables ships to fight Andros (because they will be the legacy threat for the post-war period) without having to build war-specific ships.
I think the concerns that MJC, CMC, and others bring up regarding "the Admiralty" wanting a Fleet that can defeat the Andros is valid but relatively moot in that X2 will be able as a result of the technology's intrinsic capabilities. Mike R. explained it best in his preceding post. I believe their concerns are addressed while at the same time allowing a "return to space" mentality for X2.
SO, X2's mission statement, In My Humble Opinion, can be only one way.
"To rebuild the empire and provide maximum deterrent and defense."
The limit will be the number of hulls that can both be opperated and built. X2 offers the maximum realization of this mission statement per hull. There will be limitations on crew, resources and each race must also consider not over building in numbers so as to not appear too threatening to the other races.
(this has been the basis of my ship design philsophy fromt the get go but I've had trouble getting it accross.)
Loren, that's pretty much it.