[processed]

Jeff, all most units can have XP refits it just that some can;t have XP heavy weapons.

I imagine that the BDD and D5 could not have XP Heavy Weapons but could have X-heavy weapons IF they were full converted.

[SVC: His point, Loren, is that F&E allows a BDD to be converted into a BDX so the BDD should have the ability to have X weapons. A D5 cannot be converted into a D5X but has to be built from scratch.]

SVC:
I like Tos's sliding cost scale for the shield refit. They do differ so. Usually smaller units have smaller repair ability as well as smaller shields. The XP refit simply is less functional on smaller units even in the best of circumstances.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 12:40 am: Edit

		AM	R5	AM	AM	AM	BS	R2	AM	BS	BS	C2	BS	C1	C1	C1	C2
		Fed	Fed	Kling	Rom	Kzin	Kzin	Kzn	Gorn	Gorn	Thol	Thol	Orn	Hyd	Hyd	Lyr	ISC
		FFG	NCA	D5Ky	SkA	CMy	BC	FHy+	BDD+	CLF	PCsn	NCL	CRc	LN+	RN+	CAp+	CL
Base		75	147	114	102	117	132	83	98	122	65	136	118	77	111	143	145
Xbat	2	4	8	6	4	4	8	4	4	4	4	6	4	4	8	8	8
XPR	2	2	8	4	4	8	6		4	2		4		4	6	8	8
Shields	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6
P1/2->P1	1	3	8	4	4	4	4	3	4	4	4	7	4	1	2	6	6
P2->P1	1
P2->P1X	2													4	8
P3->P1X	2.5	5	5	10	10	5	10	5	5	5		10	5			10	10
2P3->P1X	1						2
L Aegis	1	6	12	6	8	12	14	9	6	6	4	10		5	8	10	10
Photon	3	6	12										9
Disruptor	2						8	4				8				8
UIM	5						5	5				5				5
Hellbore	4
Fusion	2													6	8
PL-F/D->L	2				4					4							8
L Sabot	1				2				3	2							4
PL-S->M	4									8							8
M Sabot	3									6							6
PPD	4
WC	5											5
Snare	2										4
ESG	3															6
CX	2					4	4	4
GX	4	4	8	8		16	8	8
IS->VII	1.5	9	18	36		48	30	30
IS->VIII	2.5
IS->IX	0
VI->IX	0.5
Cloak-X	15				15								15
St-X Ready	3													3	9
St-X Tube	3
Base		75	147	114	102	117	132	83	98	122	65	136	118	77	111	143	145
Upgrade		45	85	80	57	107	105	78	32	47	22	61	43	33	55	67	74
XP Total		120	232	194	159	224	237	161	130	169	87	197	161	110	166	210	219
Increase		60%	58%	70%	56%	91%	80%	94%	33%	39%	34%	45%	36%	43%	50%	47%	51%
		FFG	NCA	D5Ky	SkA	CMy	BC	FHy+	BDD+	CLF	PCsn	NCL	CRc	LN+	RN+	CAp+	CL
		Fed	Fed	Kling	Rom	Kzin	Kzin	Kzn	Gorn	Gorn	Thol	Thol	Orn	Hyd	Hyd	Lyr	ISC

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 01:05 am: Edit

[processed]

Thanks, Loren. What I meant was that the BDD should be able to upgrade its heavy weapons under (X4.1) as the BDD is specifically allowed to be converted to full X-tech.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 01:23 am: Edit

[processed]

This chart tells me that XP refits can get rather expensive and that compared to a full X ship the full X ship is the significantly better value. I don’t blame the listed XP upgrade costs for this (only a few cost more than their worth). I blame the BPV of X ships being too low.

The average BPV increase in this sample is 55%. Drones, particularly ADD->GX, seems to drive the largest increases. Build the cost of an IF drone into the Base and the drone ships start to fall closer to the average, but still land on the high side.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 01:56 am: Edit

[processed]

Jeff: I understood. I was just saying there might be some reason that it couldn't do so unless it went all the way and that there was something else that allowed it to go all the way that other DW's didn't have. A technobabble thing maybe.

===================
Tos: I have to disagree there on X-ship BPV's being too low. I would think that upgrading piece meal should be more expensive and that buying the whole package is a better deal.

Typically the best XP deal should be in the middle ground where you don't buy every last XP upgrade. My first impression of the costs was that it is best to just get what you need to enhance the ship in the best way without getting everything. Bang for the buck should be a bell curve, IMO.

The neatest thing about XP refits is it use in a campaign where players can add bits and piece here and there as they can afford them. This is so the next best thing to ship mod rules.

And all use X-Files people should be proud. XP is a concept concieved by us and is going to be really neat to play with. Infinate veriety. I think XP may be even more fun that X1. What is really cool is that the enemy won't know exactly what you have and the game will be even a greater challenge. I love the dynamic that if you get greedy with you XP refits you get a ship that might not function as well as it should for the BPV. You have to think about what you buy carefully.

XP refits might become a Tactics Article on its own. Maybe even a term paper catagory of its own "The most effective XP refits for the least cost."

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 01:59 am: Edit

[processed, and absent drone costs isn't really true.]

Loren, we are not discussing economics, we are discussing combat potential. If an XP ship has the same BPV of an X ship then it should be an even fight. This is not happening. The XP ship is inferior in combat and weighs in with a significantly higher BPV.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 02:47 am: Edit

[processed]
Tos and Loren,

I was thinking about the BPV aspect. On the surface building a ship with X technolgy is cheaper than doing a conversion, which concluded isn't what the combat BPV reflects. A fully coverted NCC is about the save BPV, 240.

The Fed carriers escorts (NAC and DWA)seem to gain the most out of XP since these have full aegis and only have 4 P1s to convert. The cost is around 25 to 30% of the their BPV. The cost for a CA or NCA is much higher. Which conversion, carrier escort or cruiser, is more important overall to the fleet?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 05:25 am: Edit

[processed]

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 06:36 am: Edit

[processed] I'm not sure the XP refit does cost too much.

Take a CAR. 145 BPV.
Add in four Photons. 12 BPV.
Upgrade all the Ph-1s but leave the Ph-3s as free hits. 8 BPV
Replace all four BTTYs with X-BTTYs. 8 BPV.
Replace AWRs with X-AWRs. 4 BPV.
Leave shields unchanged.
Leave G-rack unchanged.
Total cost 177.
So it's not the price of a CX and comes in around the price of the DDX, which it would fight quite nicely, the G-rack and Phaser killing drones and the Photons squaring off against the the DDX photons with the DDX having 28 warp power to arm them and the CAR+XP having 34.
Actually the advntages in such a situation are the DDX's MC, X-Aegis & EW and everthing else pretty much favours the refited heavy cruiser.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 08:27 am: Edit

[processed]
It's the drones. X ships get drones as part of the package; XP ships have to buy them. If you look at Tos' list (nicely done, by the way) you see the highest cost ships are all drone heavy. I'd almost say it should cost more to convert the racks, but then let XP ships just have the drones rather than buy them...either that, or tone down the cost a bunch.

On another line of thinking, though, last night I was toying with some cool XP designs; can we have a thread for posting XP designs we come up with? For example, take a Fed CAD, and buy up all GX racks for it. Buy it limited aegis, convert all phaser 1's to x phaser 1's, and you get one hellacious escort or DB ship. 7 ADD's controlled by aegis? Yikes!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:21 am: Edit

When can we start posting term papers? I've already got one.

Don't convert that pair of Ph-3s on your XP vessel into a Ph-1X but rather keep them as is, the vessel will be cheaper and have a point less for the phaser cap' but you'll be able to take one extra phaser hit.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:53 am: Edit

[Processed] MJC: Please don't. I burned up four Petrick hours and sixteen staff hours on your last 30 papers and every single one was rejected. Just give it up.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 04:26 pm: Edit

[Processed. I think that this is a horrible idea as it becomes a big pork barrel of freebies. You get what you pay for, and partial refits are more expensive than the whole job but available to many more ships.]

Aside from Mike R's drone observation, I suggest a cap of about 33% or so on XP upgrades.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 09:29 pm: Edit

[Processed]

I don't know if that's necessary. If you max out an XP ship and as a result if BPV is high then this is good. They system is self limiting and players will learn it.

Spend your BPV wisely. And I think the system should allow you to spend is stupidly too. That's part of the fun of the game. Thinking ahead. Designing your fleet to maximum capability for the BPV spent. Experimenting and finding the best mix.

This get me to thinking about the BCH + 10 CW fleet. This is in fact a great way to maximize fire power per BPV spent. But it's no very creative and perhaps it great over and over if your only joy come from winning.

So I think that I and most people will try maxed out XP units but will find that the ships can be very nearly as effective if you leave a few things off. Indeed some ships will bennefit most than the cost by just adding a couple systems.

How many ships can now move max speed and HET on reserve that couldn't before? How big of a suprize will it be when a Fed DDL fast loads it's Photons for a second turn shot!

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:04 pm: Edit

[Processed, and I agreed to free drones. We may want to increase the rack conversion cost.]

Well, the problem with that is that it's disproportianately unfair to drone heavy ships; the Kzintis in particular. A Romulan pays some points for an infinite supply of x-torpedoes, while the Kzinti has to buy the racks AND the drones. So, a Kzinti BC ends up with a gargantuan cost, where the Rom doesn't...but they both are "maxed out" and have the same capabilities. It's too expensive for the drone user to fairly compete. Just as an example...

A Romulan FFHK with all the XP it can get (all x phaser 1's, plasma M's, shields, XPR, batteries and X-cloak) costs 248 points; sixty for all the XP stuff plus it's base cost of 188. That's roughly a 32% increase.

Now, a Kzinti BCF with the same stuff (all p1's, CX racks, shields, XPR, batteries and disruptors) costs the same 60 points...with not a single x drone purchased. After buying those, you're well ahead in points just to keep parity with the Rom. I'd rather see conversion of the racks themselves be more expensive, and just give the x-drones to the ships that do the conversions. Otherwise, they'll be behind the curve every time.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:18 pm: Edit

[Processed, and way too complicated]

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:35 pm: Edit

[Processed] What is the (XR5.2) drone cost?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:12 am: Edit

[Processed, and I don't really agree with the direction]

I'd prefer that the various empires have "standard" refits to the ships that most deserve/need/benefit.

I'd really limit the application of more than a battery and phaser refit.

The Empires should be building new X ships with the "X points" and converting all the rest to National Guard ships, Convoy escorts (Pols get swapped out for FFs and DWs). A FEW ships might be deserving of XP refits, like SRs, Scouts, and such rarities, but generally, get the new ones out there!

There are a LOT of relic classes that should disappear (Fed DD, CL, FF/ Klink D6, F5, E most everything/ Rom Chickenhawk, Wareagle/ Kzin CL, FF etc). FINALLY, the entire NCA concept is pretty much a failure IMHO. Many of them have about the same BPV as a CWL of their race. So are the BPVs off, or the designs. Look at the Lyrans for example.

I am still trying to figure out WHY the Lyrans haven't put swivels on their disruptors, or put them on the engines like the Klinks... They also need a 1 space version of the ESG, so they can have more flexibility in use...(1 space, 4 max in cap, 2 max power per use, 1 or 0 radius, duration 16 impulses, 16 impulse cool down). AND the Lyran CLX is totally crappy compared to the rest of the universe. So you have the CX, CWX and DWX classes...

The Hydrans need to clean up their classes and standardize a bunch. Like make the DW have Opt weapons and APR. Fusion and Fighters or Hellbores and APR? They really should consider SCRAPPING the entire fusion concept and replacing them with Phaser Gatlings anyway (hold for free, usable every turn, flexible, more efficient for the energy used, and MORE DAMAGE at a lot of ranges). Maybe a HellFuser, able to fire as a fusion or hellbore? Fire Hellbore, close and fusion them, then run to range and hellbore them to death...

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:29 am: Edit

[Processed. Perhaps he is right but we're not debating changes to X-rules.]

What's broken is X ships don't pay for their drones.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:45 am: Edit

[Processed] I thought I used the values listed in (XFD2.11) "Extra type-VII drones cost 2.75 points. Extra type-VIII drones cost 3.5 points. Extra type-IX drones cost 1 point." with me subtracting out 1 point for the value of the IS drone priced into the BPV.

But it turns out the rule changed with the printing of the MRB and I didn't catch it. The old rule, the one I used when I made the charts, was that a VII drone cost 2.5 points. The new rule is a VII drone costs 2.75 points. Thank you for pointing this out.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:46 am: Edit

[Processed] But that's the point, Tos. X ships don't pay for drones, so making Xp ships do so jacks the price up. x plasmas are good to; so why should a Rom spend a measly four points and get not only an unlimited supply of x-plasmas, but the extra PPT to boot? It comes down to this; anyone that wants drones will be forced to either make choices or pay an exorbitantly high cost for the refit. Anyone without drones can have whatever they want for far less. It's tantamount to making all drone-carrying x-ships suddenly cost 10% to 15% more in BPV without touching anyone else. Since that wasn't done, it shouldn't be done here, either. Otherwise I guarentee after a few rounds of testing your Kzinti players are going to be howling about how their XP ships suck because they cost too much.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:50 am: Edit

[Processed] The interesting impact of this is that now a Kzinti FH+ costs 100% more with the XP refit. The CM is only a 98% increase to 232 BPV, but the it was restricted from receiving the disruptor and UIM upgrade.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 09:00 am: Edit

[Processed] Mike, your point is overstated.

On a Kzinti BC I can upgrade to a pair of C racks for 4 BPV. I load those racks with 1xIF + 3xVII. The incremental cost over the IF drones I would have used is 4.5 BPV. I have double reloads so I have 12 VII drones in storage. I place these 12 VII drones into my two scatter packs. Total cost 8.5 BPV. Look on opponents face? Priceless. The Kzinti didn't pick the short straw here.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 09:06 am: Edit

[Processed] My CM opts to just upgrade his 2xADD to 2xGX for 8 BPV. I now have a fully armed war cruiser with 6 drone racks and the ability to launch 8 drones a turn. Even if none of them are X drones (and at least 6 will be so I can load the scatter packs) I have just dramatically improved the combat capability of this ship.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:18 am: Edit

[Processed] Great example...of not buying the one system they benefit most from. All you're showing is that it's cheaper not to buy X-drones. We know that. The problem is that it shouldn't be so expensive. Look at the math. Why should an XP cruiser cost more than a full X cruiser? It will by the time you tack on the cost of fully upgrading all its drones and racks, and that just isn't right.