Archive through May 29, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: General synopsis: Archive through May 29, 2005
By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Thanks RBN.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Ummm...question. I've seen X1 ships mentioned 'in use' a few times in this topic for the X2 era, but...

Well, maybe I'm wrong and the flavor text changed along the way, but I was under the impression that X1 was built in the same way that the CWs/DWs were - designed to burn brightly and burn out. Not long-term hulls like the pre-GW-era ships were.

Is this not correct?

If it IS correct...won't X2 ships be across-the-board replacing all pre-Y205 ships as rapidly as possible?

Dunno, just throwing the idea out there. (FWIW, my only hope for X2 is that point defenses get beefed up enough that a CVA group w/ SWACS, megafighters, etc point-matched against a pure X2 warship fleet is an even match. In the GW era, it's *not*.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Xander: SVC has clearified this way back early on. GW and X1 operate long into the X2 era. Now I do think that eventually all the older ships will retire and they will be replaced by X2 versions (I also think X2 should be built in all classes as opposed to how X1 was only built as those classes most suitable for war).

But replacement as quickly as possible won't be the thing, I believe. The races will try to get maximum use out of what they have. Wile X2 will excell at all it does you still need numbers of hulls to cover the expanse of empire you have. There won't be enough X2 units to cover all the places where a starship is needed. So ALL the old ships will be used until they must be retired.

I'm pretty sure SVC also said that X1 ships were designed for full service lives and not like the CW's and DW's.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:24 am: Edit

I would also venture that the "Neutral Zones" are MUCH MUCH wider due to the ISC and Andro pressures on borders. A lot of these "New" neutral zone planets are going to want to stay OUT of the big empires and their problems/ issues.

So you have The Bargantines/ Vudar/ Tholians/ WYN etc. In fact, I would bet there are several MORE mini empires formed in the aftermath.

Some more attached to their favorite neighbor, some more "Swiss." Kinda stinks for the Klinks and Vudar who have no where close to expand to though...

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:31 am: Edit

As another aside.

The Lyrans have the BEST fleet tug and with a pallet a darn good BCH. I would think the Lyrna XCA and XSR would be tug (like). So your XCA(tug) could go pick up a Battle pallet for serious combat, a SR pallet for explorin'...

In a similar manner, the Romulans would be complete idiots if they scrapped their Plug and Play system (though they DO need a true full size tug).

The Gorns have already been shown able to plug in rear discs to upgrade their ships and that ability should be saved (maybe with a few NWOs?)

In fact, ALL X ships should have an ability to swap out a "standard patrol" module and get a "combat module" as a regular thing.

Hydrans could swap 4 labs or so for Xstingers, Klinks a couple of transporters and barracks, Feds Lab ot AWR etc.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:53 am: Edit

Couple of things:

Wider neutral zones. That's a given, pretty much, unless SVC chooses to alter the history. The wide neutral zones directly lead to the Trade Wars, where empires have to trade for and buy goods that they used to get for free. There may not be new empires springing up (though its an interesting idea), but there will be lots and lots of little independent worlds or systems who will sell to the highest bidder.

Plug and play. Be very carefull of this. Too much modularity can be a problem and lead to cookie cutter ships, and worse, reduces racial flavor. Roms have modules; that's a Rom thing to do. Not everyone else has or needs them even though it might make sense to do so. One of the big gripes with the old supplement two was the fact that all the ships had that weird "hold" system. One of the things SVC proposed was for X2 ships to have an "any" box; a system box you could make into a given number of systems whenever you needed it. So, on one turn, the box might be a transporter, then on the next a control space, then a lab, etc. There's been some playing around with this, but nothing too deep yet.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:28 am: Edit

Sorry folks, IMHO it's a contradiction spending >100 Billions dollars on designing a "We won the war" boat when even the survival of your species is in doubt. Not even the German were that crazy when they realised the dire straits they were in.

I am not at all against the "Peaceboat" (no, not the ISC TCC:)) but realisticaly (yeah, I know:)) it will appear some time after the Andro war. Assuming a 10 year design and construction period the first prototype could leave the docks ca Y213.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:32 am: Edit

Loren, blueprints is what you have to guide you when building your ship, fighter, anything.
But it's, among many other things, the making of those blueprints that take time. In other words the idea of switching blue prints would work only for empires designing two different ship series at the same time! I doubt even the Feds could do that without going into bancrupcy(sp?.:P

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:39 am: Edit

X ANDROS. [sound of the crowd stampeding]

This is the main reason the races would build X2 ships to fight the Andros. While X1 ships work for the moment, well, everyone was waiting for the X Andros to turn up, weren't they? (The Andromedan Threat file remember?:))
One always design a new system, using past experience, to fight a future threat. And occasionaly you find events and/or the armsrace has overtaken you. As happened to the F-22.



The Ph-V would be good for fighting Ph-1 armed X-Andros. But prsonally I think the range brackets I have seen make the weapon too powerful.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 11:10 am: Edit

Carl: Trust me, I KNOW about blue prints. It's part of my business, after all.

What I said was that designs to fight the Andro surely exist but when the Andros were defeted the Empires would have changed their designs and went with one that fits the role of security and empire rebuilding. So X2 ships would NOT to pure war ships.

IF the Andros had NOT been defeted then X2 certainly would have been designed to be pure warships.

And the survival of each species is not a grat concern imediately short of being attacked and taken over. All the core areas are intact which the ISC made sure of. And the Andros never hit the core areas too hard. So security is the big concern.

And Carl, ship construction take six months to a year depending on size. I be willing to accepts that the first X2 units took two years. But this is fairly established in the SFU.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 11:41 am: Edit

Quote:

Sorry folks, IMHO it's a contradiction spending >100 Billions dollars on designing a "We won the war" boat when even the survival of your species is in doubt. Not even the German were that crazy when they realised the dire straits they were in.



But that isn't how things work, Carl. Builders don't design a new ship, then start figuring out the new systems to go on them. The have the systems developed, and then build a ship to use them for whatever mission they want. New weapons, phasers, labs, etc. all get developed during the war, and then a ship is built that uses them. But, the war is over, so the new ship isn't built with a maxed out weapons load because it isn't necessary; for one, it's almost as good as the CX with what it has anyway, and two, it needs to be more flexible. I know what you're driving at, but if we start out X2 with ships made to whip up on Andros (i.e., armed to the teeth) then the new X2 module won't be any better than supplement 2.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 05:05 pm: Edit

LoL Mike! You know I thought YOU guys were in danger of going the Supplement #2 route.
It's not I who has come up with Z-torps and SIF things, after all:)
Did you read what I wrote in X tech for BIG players thread? I don't think X2 ships should have, or need, more firepower. Heh, a TFH allready got a 40% plasma improvement. More if you consider the increased abilities and range of the Pl-S that replaced the pl-Fs. But the X2 ships can get more abilites for the systems they all ready have, and the new phasers of course.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Well, not really. Yeah, there is a z torp in the works, but only one ship carries it, and only one. It's only 50% more damage than the R, which is nothing compared to the increases seen in weapon damage from GW to X1. Tell you what, Carl. I'll email you the XCA I've been toying with for the past year, and see what you think. If it looks too powerful, tell me why, and we'll go from there. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. I think we have similar ideas, but aren't getting them across.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Tnx Mike. Unfortunately the PC I use right know is locked against downloads :(
This to protect the integrity of the internet cafe'. I'll try to look at it ASAP.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 01:03 am: Edit

Loren,

Quote:

Carl: Trust me, I KNOW about blue prints. It's part of my business, after all.


Yes, I see you are into house building?
In a way it is all about planning and building. However designing a ship that dwarf a Nimitz carrier, and is many, many times more complex, takes many years.* here is a informative link on the CVX future US carrier
Note the building time; the project started in 1996 and the first ship will be commisioned 2013. I doubt the navy could change their minds in 2012, since that means they would be stranded with no successor to the old carriers.

I knew before hand that the B10 had a mass of more than 100.000 metric tons, but still it was of a surprise to see in Gurps Klingons that the mass of impulse engines was equal to the mass of a modern day destroyer! Just imagine the complexity of it all! One destroyer imp there, andother there. A cruiser sized warp engine to the left, etc. Heh, I wonder about the mass of a PL-R torps...


Quote:

What I said was that designs to fight the Andro surely exist but when the Andros were defeted the Empires would have changed their designs and went with one that fits the role of security and empire rebuilding. So X2 ships would NOT to pure war ships.


Actually by design I don't mean making blue prints. I mean the entire process from the first discusions about specs. till the building AND testing of the first prototypes. (A modern word for this is 'project'.)
This takes much time, and it is, IMHO, not possible to compromise this if we are to keep some realism in this Sci-Fi game.
Since the basic design of new weapons systems, be it fighters or ships, also is locked early, any late changes is possible only if one accept the cost and delay thiw will cause. Since the ships will work well once in service I don't think the GP races will make that effort after Op Unity.

But one can do two things:
Design new ships post Op Unity, and accept delay.
And also design refits for the first X2 ships (designed during the Andro war). Refits would still take time, but not like a designing a new class would.

Quote:

IF the Andros had NOT been defeted then X2 certainly would have been designed to be pure warships.


This is not how it works. You can't wait to see IF you need them. If you wait till you see you need them, it's allready too late. You have to assume you WILL need them, or else you are going to whish you HAD. This is how any army reason when they plan for the future. This because of the time it takes to get new weapons and weapon plattforms into production.

Quote:

And the survival of each species is not a grat concern imediately short of being attacked and taken over. All the core areas are intact which the ISC made sure of. And the Andros never hit the core areas too hard. So security is the big concern.

Considering that a single race could do what entire alliance failed in the GW I think the Galactic powers had reason to worry.
This is a matter of how one read the printed SFU history, of course. As I read the history it was simply a do or die situation with Op Unity. If they lost the Andros would eventually have conquered everone. They did crush the LDR, remember.


Quote:

And Carl, ship construction take six months to a year depending on size. I be willing to accepts that the first X2 units took two years. But this is fairly established in the SFU.


That is IIRC actually a fudge(w?) to make the producton system in FE practical. I know they have been experimenting with a production wheel were you plan ahead, and then live with what you get (even if the situation may have changed).
I think the start of that was that some players wanted a more realistic system.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 01:04 am: Edit

Ops! Sry for the long post.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 01:50 am: Edit

I am no Vulcan, although it may appear so:)
But I do want things to be logical and consequent.

Godnight!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 03:35 am: Edit

Carl, I'm sorry but I think you have a lot of misconceptions about things in the SFU. I'll try to address each point.

Yes, I'm a Master Craftsman. I've been building stuff since I was a kid. I was a journeyman carpenter at 18 but went into ciramic tile and stone. After a full aprinticship I did what real jouneymen do, I journied and learned from other masters of the trade and became one myself. I since have been in the business of designing and building bath and kitchen remodels and new construction. Also quite a lot of comercial construction. I am also a journy level plumber and framer. I've been building high end cabinetry during the last 6 years but I'm giving it up since I just don't enjoy doing it as a business.

So I do understand the process of building thing. And ship building is something I have an interest in. Actually the building of many large things. I'm a fan of Bectel Inc. accomplishments.

ON TO THE SFB STUFF:

The thing about ship building in the SFU is that they have many advances beyond what is available now. There really is no comparison to todays ship building techniques and schedules. In the SFU they have super computers that allow them to fully design and build a vurtual version of the ship and test it to a high degree. This sort of technology is being used today but is primative compared to the computing power of the SFU. Also, by Y200 all the races have been building starships for 200 years. We've been building naval warships in the computer age for 30?

In the SFU they have tractor beams, transporters, matter reformers (that can forge parts and materials quickly and of super high quality). By the way, I don't know if you've read GPD4e but I wrote the article on replicators. There was a mistake and I didn't get credit in the early printings.

Anyway, all these things mean that building a Starship in a year is entirely possilbe. The problem with the B-10 is clearly spelled out. While it was a huge project it took so long because of changes, redesigns, mistakes, engineering problems etc. They ripped out entire sections and started over, thing like that. It was a whole new thing to build a starship that big.

X2 ships were no doubt drawn up, tested virtually and retested etc before Y204. But changes in the construction schedules could not be made at a time when everyone was building maxed out to keep up with the need of fighting the Andros. And there might have been some things holding back X2 a bit. Research was probably held back during the Andro war in order to focus on the immediate need of the war.

Like I said, they probably did plan to build ships to fight the Andros during the Andro war but when the war was over X2 was implemented as a different design. One that better fit the needs of the new era. This would not take long to do with the super computing power involved. Starting with one the original designs (of which there were likely many) they make a few changes to the layout and test it and get approved. They lay the groundwork in late Y203, about the time when all the races are talking about what next and what sort of peace we will all have. Yards are converted in Y204 and construction begins shortly after. So in Y205 you see the launch of the first X2 unit. Not a fleet of new X2 ships but one of a couple classes at most (and not all eventual classes either).

And ya, the races will all be considering that most Andros might show up. That's one reason X2 needs to still be pretty tough. The Tholians were a hint that races could come from anywhere but the Andros were a wake up call that devestating threats can and will come from anywhere. Also the fact that the LDR was crushed isn't that great a statement. The LDR was small and limited in ships and resources. They really didn't have any war machine to speak of. I believe it was their independance that got them killed. Had they been still firmly apart of the Lyran Empire they would not have been so devestated.

ANother issue is that the races are going to be unsure about each other. Everyone has recently fought together to defeat and terrible enemy and this was very good to galactic relations. But then old attitudes die hard. A common belief about the Klingons and Romulans among the people of the Federation is that peace confuses them. And the Klingons and Romulans are wondering if the Feds will suddenly annex more territory like they did when they set of theri modern borders. (I made those two last lines up but they seem to fit... my view anyway.)

In short, the races would have designed ships to fight Andros but with their defeat other designs were implemented that fit the new situation instead (the new situation being one of uncertainty and broad. Not of a single minded direction like during the Andro war.)

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 06:33 am: Edit

Loren, cool, and I wonder if there are any other craftsmen here on the BBS.

The argument about future skills in construction techniques was one I anticipated, but it is a flawed one. My reply to you is: Deux ex machina.
No offense, but by pointing to assumed technological advances you make anything you want plausible. As I have said even fiction need anchor points in reality. (You should note how SVC use his engineering skills to keep SFB development in order. How often haven't I heard something proposed being shot down because the engineering won't support it!)
Myself I stick hard to those anchors, and that is also to my advantage! When thinking about things like X2 it give my work structure! Most of my ideas turn up because of the structure a realistic view imposes on my imagination.

(Speaking of construction; the trend in construction (of fighters at least) is constantly towards more capabilities, complexity, cost and construction time. This despite an increased skill in construction and management techniques. *)



I any case I don't think we are very far apart in our view on X2 foundation

Quote:

In short, the races would have designed ships to fight Andros but with their defeat other designs were implemented that fit the new situation instead (the new situation being one of uncertainty and broad. Not of a single minded direction like during the Andro war.)


Perhaps you can accept replacing "other designs" with " programs for refits and variants"?




*The world record in making a fighter is held by the Heinkel company. The time from request for proposals to flight of the first protoptype was only 80 days! That was the He 162 in Decemeber 1944. The first active fighter wing with this jet fighter become operational in the last few weeks of the war in Europe.
Today you can expect at least a development time of a decade.

[edited]

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 07:50 am: Edit

Now I just need to convince Loren to come remodel my bathroom, with payment for labor in the form of minis. (And if you think I'm joking, you haven't seen my sad little bathroom.) :)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 08:21 am: Edit

J.O.:

Somewhat off topic.
Did you model for the front cover of GURPS ROMULANS?


Speaking of which ( although totally unrelated to J.O. ), am I the only one who thinks the chick in the picture looks like she's trying to cut her own throat!?!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 08:37 am: Edit

Quote:

Sorry folks, IMHO it's a contradiction spending >100 Billions dollars on designing a "We won the war" boat when even the survival of your species is in doubt. Not even the German were that crazy when they realised the dire straits they were in.


Conversely, spending 99.4 Billion dollars on R&D and then not spending the remaining 600 million dollars on actually building the ship is crazy.


I see money causing the X2 ships to be built to be XFFs so that the shipyard workers can keep up their skills and then go and be the foreman on other X2 construction as/when/if construction rates pick up.


Don't get me wrong when I'm talking about XFFs, I personnally think they are the equal of the MY CAs so they are pretty powerful. 3Ph-5s, two 24 point Photons ( maybe ), twin GX-racks, 8 EW, 30 all round shield boxes and an ASIF and about 20 points of warp engine power ( on an MC 0.33 hull ) with room to refit for even more; really can compete with the NCLs that are being phased out as the XFFs are being phased in.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 09:06 am: Edit

Quote:

Did you model for the front cover of GURPS ROMULANS?

Not that I'm aware of.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 10:26 am: Edit

Building X2 during a shooting war presents the same risks the Klingons took with the B10 (begun at a time when the war was going rather well for them). From the descriptions of the Andro War I’m inclined to believe that the various Empires were not in a position to take risks on an unproven platform.

As an opposing viewpoint, what if the reason that X2 was not released before the Andros were defeated was due to the new designs being incapable of the combat density of the tried and true? Consider, if you were the Feds during peacetime and you had the choice of switching your cruiser builds to all CF designs would you do it? You’d at least consider it. During a war? I’ll take the ship with the four photons if you please.

Look at the order of battle for OpUnity. The reason they took so few X ships was because supporting this temperamental technology so far from home was a logistical nightmare.

I’m currently toying with the idea that X2 ships were designed to fight the Andros. Not just any Andro, the Andros OpUnity style. In my scenario X2 is designed to be long ranged, easy to maintain fast vessels capable of bringing the fight to the Desecrator. The fact that OpUnity succeeded before these ships could roll off the assembly lines was sheer good fortune for the Galactics. Once designed and on the production schedule it was found that having a long range, easy to maintain yet fast as an X-ship design was of benefit during the era of Reconstruction. Should the Andros return to try again it would be these ships that would form the tip of the OpUnity2 spear.

All this comes at a cost. The X2 ships were designed to support the P5 long-lance, but gaining the required strategic speed left these ships unable to mount these powerful weapons in the quantities that previous generations could. X2 was designed to be effective in combat, but not the uber-ships some that some have predicted. In my experience uber-ships tend to have problems playing nicely with previous generations; a fate I hope to avoid with this X2 design.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 12:36 pm: Edit

I think that the designs would have been adjusted after the fall of the Andros and that it would not have taken a lot of effort to do so. OR there were several designs in the works. This actually seems more logical. One of the designs would have be excelent for fighting Andros and would have been a pure fighting ship. Another design, with a few adjustments might have anticipated the victory of OpU and been designed to manage the LMC. This design with modification was the last minute choice.

From race to race all designes were either one of several choices, modified o completely reworked. The basic hull form remained the same, it was really a matter of adjusting the internal layout.

TOS: All all the talk in the last few days I have to say you propose the one thing I absolutly love and that is the name for the Ph-5. Long Lance. I don't know why the heck I didn't think of it but it perfect and as far as I'm concerned it is the official Fed code name!

Jessica Orsini: You are aware you are a Romulan House though, right?

Regarding you bathroom, I'm afraid you're a bit out of my comute range, sorry. Also taking payment in minis would most certainly result in a packet of devorce papers on my lap and I'd lose half of them anyway.

However, you are welcome to e-mail me and I would be happy to give you advice on what to do. Send pictures and/or floor plans for best results... of the bath room. (sheesh guys, get out of the gutter!)

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