Archive through June 01, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: General synopsis: Archive through June 01, 2005
By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 06:16 pm: Edit

I think that much of the major technical components needed to be ordered in advance (the so-called "long-lead-time components"), things like engines, reactors, heavy weapons, phasers, computer systems, major load-bearing structures, etc. Not to mention making leadership, crew, and logistics commitments. Could they be whistled up in a year's time? I suppose they could for one or two ships, but what if you're trying to build more than that? What if you have more than one "family" (i.e. GW v. X1 v. X2) to consider?

At some point, the Federation (for example) had to make the decision to go with a particular "style" of X2 ship and had to actually make the decision to commit to and fund X2. The technology itself was already maturing in simulations and prototypes, but at some point they had to say, "okay! This is it, make it happen!" At some point they had to solve the "greasy engineering problems" that turn simulations and prototypes into production units that a ship could be built around. When were those decisions made?

Was it made before, during, or after OpU? For that matter, if it was made during OpU was it made before success was apparent or after? This would determine not only when but what decisions needed to be made on implementing X2 technology.

So there are two decision points that SVC asked for. I presumed he was asking for decision points he (not we) would have to make.

These are fundamental questions, everything else kind of falls into place after that.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 07:19 pm: Edit

RBN,

Good examples of "key decisions".

The conflict with the ISC and Andromedans would be studied by each race differently. Each race would look at how well their ships and weapons did and then incorporate this information along with their GW experiences into the design process.

Will the strategic distance between refueling stops increase for X2? GW =6, X1 =7, X2 =8, Fast X2 =9.

P6 mentions a small dangerous X2 ship. This is possible because of X2 technology. Who will build these types of ships?

After OpU the Alpha Races and Omega Races will probably meet. Will that be via crossing the void or through the LMC?

What classes of X2 ship will there be?

Are there X2 Aux ships and Freighters?

Do carriers and attrition units progress technology wise past the GW? There are no X tech fighters besides the Hydrans. Will there be X2 tech fighters and shuttles? The same question for PFTs and PFs.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 07:41 pm: Edit

Consider too that even if a handful of X2 ships are commissioned in Y205 (and that likely late in the year), they probably won't exist in numbers to make a sizeable impact on "the way things are" at the time. There will be a period after OpU where the GW and X1 forces are still the key players in the Galaxy.

This presents a great opportunity for new X1 products and even some post-OpU refits (e.g. to cost-saving "peace dividend" standards) for existing GW forces. As war-class ships are retired, they could be cannibalized to help revitalize the existing Fleet. The Guard and Police forces will be very busy during this period.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 12:06 am: Edit

Quote:

At some point, the Federation (for example) had to make the decision to go with a particular "style" of X2 ship and had to actually make the decision to commit to and fund X2.


I was looking through the R section in X1 last night and have a couple of points.
1) R0.200 say CXs came first because of the war and 2) X scouts came latter with the rise of X squarons.

I would argue that X2 goes the same way or a similar way.
There is a long lead in of development and the X2 cruisers are built being able to beat the pants off the Andros ( by being as powerful as CXs in firepower and tougher ) and then the war ends in Y202 and X2 ships start arriving in Y205, which probably means they are built to be the equal of the CXs in fire power but no more so but still have a refit ability to be as bristling with these new weapons as CXs are with their's.

But since the war is over there is probably no money, so each race might build 1 XCA or XCC because they want to keep up their shipyard skills and they want to prove they can do it, and because ( particularly if X2 ship have a strategic ability over X1 ships ( even if it's just more DASH )) X2 ship will have a better functionality in aiding the newly neutral and deeply neutral planets that the empire would like to bring back into the empire/federation, by hook or by crook and that having ships that can whisk over there and "help" will be of greater use than the X1 and GW ships.
This then becomes the basis for your fleet construction. You build advanced XFFs that can beat the pants off of FFXs and you build XDDs that can beat the pants off of DDXs and then you send out those XFFs to perform the role of the DDXs and you send out the XDDs to perform the role of the CXs.
Net result, you have a better fleet for doing the stuff of empire ( without needing the hugely expensive XCCs that you would have needed if you were fighting the Andro' still ) whilst still not bankrupting your ecconomy.
Just because the war is over does not mean their won't be; disputes between neutral planets ( one can capitalise on ), Piracy, the possibility of war, plague outbreaks ( where rapid responce of a ship with the antidote will save lives ) and monsters, so the navy will still be needed and the Admirals will get the funding for new construction of these X2 ships if they say ( and say quite rightly ) that the X2 ships can perform the roles of several ships ( on account of the higher strategic speed and/or dash speed ) with fewer men ( and fewer spare parts ) saving money over the long term. "Build a few new - save on the spares & wages of many old"; will become the new funding cry of the varrious Admiralties.


Quote:

Was it made before, during, or after OpU? For that matter, if it was made during OpU was it made before success was apparent or after? This would determine not only when but what decisions needed to be made on implementing X2 technology.


Again I think the Admiralties will take a different approach to what is being put forward.
Why redesign the XCA when the war has ended, when you can just flood the trickel of money you are getting for XCA construction into XDDs (Or XCMs or XCLs ) and replace the fact that you would otherwise have had a meaningless production schedule into having a better ship for the job at hand ( peace-keeping/antipiracy/anti-monster/diplomacy ) and a meaningful production schedule.

You don't change your designs if changing your production-schedule/purchase-criteria solves the problem.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 02:23 am: Edit

Basically, the above boils down to, you might have 10 NCLs, but since the higher strategic speed of a XFF means that 7 XFFs can cover what 10 NCLs did and since each XFF has the firepower of an NCL it can cover what those NCLs did but you're not at war so you don't need the fire-power of 10 NCLs, but the spares and crew costs of 7 XFF is quite a lot less than the cost of 10 NCLs, the Admirals in the purchasing office would be quite willing to talk to their government about selling off the old NCLs and buying new XFFs.
It seems counter intuitive but fiscal thinking often is.


So I don't see peace-cruisers as being the design but, rather destroyers being sent in place of cruisers and frigates in the place of destroyers as being the solution to the question, of what shall we build if we don't have a war to provide a reason to build.
And no one is entirely sure that war won't break out in 5, 10 or 15 years time.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 10:19 am: Edit

Loren,

Quote:

I think that the designs would have been adjusted after the fall of the Andros and that it would not have taken a lot of effort to do so. OR there were several designs in the works. This actually seems more logical. One of the designs would have be excelent for fighting Andros and would have been a pure fighting ship. Another design, with a few adjustments might have anticipated the victory of OpU and been designed to manage the LMC. This design with modification was the last minute choice.



Brodie said it well in his post above. I only want to add that what you are talking of is actually the pre-design process; First the military considers their needs, and issues requests for proposals, and then the competing firms tries to win contracts with their concepts.
Once a contrac has been sgned you have also choose the desirable design. There will usally be a few changes early in the design process, but only small ones at later stages.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 10:35 am: Edit

Tos, naturaly the GP would start study ways to counter the Andros as soon it become apparent the Andros are a threat. When the first Dominator appears I think a sense of urgency would speed those projects up:)

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 06:00 pm: Edit

And here's where I throw a monkey wrench into the works (maybe).

The simulations and prototypes I mentioned were being developed during the war period, therefore logically they're being created to fight a war (and an attrition one at that). Then the ISC show up, and then the Andros, and finally OpU kicks off which will determine the fate of X2 (amongst certain other things).

The Galactic Powers had a potent enough force to not only defend against the Andros but actually take the fight to them. Think about that. They're rolling the dice with OpU, but they're doing it with a great deal of confidence. To me that implies they believe they can control their losses if OpU doesn't go well.

Regardless of what happens in OpU, the Andros would be dealt a serious blow which would let the GPs catch their breath and prepare for "the next move." Consider that X2 would be the answer to the Andros' "next move." So, the GPs wait to see what happens.

As it turns out OpU went as well as was hoped (if not better). The Andros were defeated and all that was left was mopping up the stragglers. The "breathing room" just got a lot larger, and it became possible to exploit that. There's a bunch of X2 sims/protos awaiting a decision.

I think the decision was made to implement the new technology, and in such a way as to create the post-war empire-(re)builder Fleet that matches the "mission statement" I wrote a few days back. Now the engineers have to figure out ways of turning the theory into fact (e.g. Y203-204 period) in order to wrap the existing spaceframes around the new technology (with a hoped-for goal of New Year's Y206). The "Skunk Works" went into high gear.

Although the theoretical technology was designed for war, the practical application will be post-war. The end result is tough ships (can take a beating) with a great deal of flexibility (can react quickly to changing situations).

Their firepower is a logical progression; weapons have become ever-increasingly more powerful since Y1 and indeed one might argue that wartime economic constraints actually slowed that particular progression. For example, phasers become more flexible and defense-oriented (e.g. Ph-1X/Ph-5) rather than become "flying Ph-4s."

So to boil it down:

And I add that I think the Y205+ X2 ships will be "transition" hulls (much like the U.S. Navy's CVX concept). A few years down the road (say around Y210) the "finished concept" hulls will be built.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Quote:

X2 technology was originally conceived (before OpU) to defeat the Andros but in the end went into production to rebuild the "empires" (after OpU).


On that we're all singing from the same hymn book.


How the above happened is where the debate begins.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 10:44 pm: Edit

There's a very basic and key decision point that needs to be discussed more.

How different should X2 tech be?

The problem is that making X2 radically different from X1/GW tech makes it much more difficult to satisfy the requirement that X2 BPV be compatible with X1 and GW BPV. The more radical and different the capabilities, the more likely that RPS or scaling issues will intrude which cannot be fixed by simple BPV adjustment.

I doubt that Phaser-5s or 10 point (or even 12 point) photon torpedos will pose insoluble problems. A Ph-5 is ultimately just a Ph-1 on steroids but it plays by essentially the same rules. Same thing with a 10 or 12 point photon versus a standard 8 point photon. These powerful weapons would lead to high BPV ships and it might take some trial and error to determine how high, but I don't see them "breaking" the BPV system the way more radical improvements might.

As an example of a more radical system, consider weapons that "leak" through shields. These have do have the potential to break the BPV system when used against older ships that don't have weapons which will leak. And the current "leaky shields" rule for SFB doesn't adequately spotlight the problem, because the people who use that rule (a distinct minority of all SFB players I suspect) use it for both sides. It's when my weapons leak through your shields, but yours don't leak through mine, that we have the potential for something that will never be well handled by a BPV system. And Spearfish drones are too few in number, have too low a damage potential, and are too easily countered, to illuminate what might happen if X2 broadly deploys weapons that leak through shields.

None of the previous is meant to argue that X2 shouldn't have "shield leaking" weapons. It was used as an example of a much more radical change than a "Phaser-5", and one with potential major implications for BPV compatibility with older technology. To continue with that specific example, we can consider 3 broad cases.

1) Phaser-5/10 or 12 point photon torpedos/etc. - X2 weapons are more powerful but work according to the same basic rules. Little risk of breaking BPV system but X2 tech (or at least weapons tech, leaving aside other goodies) isn't all that different.

2) Widespread deployment of X2 direct fire weapons with radically different capabilities - Much "cooler" but much greater risk of introducing something that can't be covered by a comprehensive BPV system.

3) Radically different weapons but with major tactical limitations - An example of this might be a "shield penetrating mode" for X2 phasers that can only be selected at very close range and which also does less damage than the "standard" mode. By allowing the shield penetrating function only at close range, you at least solve one of the major balance problems of leaking - long range bombardment.

Again, the above isn't really about "leaking" weapons. That was merely an example. Personally, I kind of like case 3), introducing some radical but also tactically limited capabilities. I just don't know if even that is sufficient to ensure BPV compatibility with X1 and GW. In any case, the question of how different X2 should be is a major decision point that needs to be carefully considered.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:53 am: Edit

X2 Spearfish style drone proposed in the appropriate topic based on the requirements that Alan has outlined.

When an X2 ship gets to close range we won't have to worry much about the shields 'leaking'.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:48 am: Edit

Brodie,

Quote:

The Galactic Powers had a potent enough force to not only defend against the Andros but actually take the fight to them. Think about that.


Actually what happened was that the galactic forces were not enough to stop the Andros from dominating. According to the SFU history most empires were reduced to small areas around their home systems. There were some exceptions; the Klingons, Feds (and possible the Lyrans and ISC) was hard pressed but still had some of their territories left. What then happened was that they found out about the RTN and started killing andro bases. By doing this they disrupted the logistics of the Andros, which has alwaus been a good way to get a strategic advantage.
In other words, they found the andros only real weakness and could exploit it to make an offensive.
OpU was not so much of show of strength as an unavoidable neccessity; the Andros would eventually have come up with a counter to the attacks on their bases, unless the GPs used their advantage to finish the Andros off.
Yes, it was a gamble, and the GPs were forced to play..

BTW. OpU was a joint effort. I doubt any race had forces enought to pull it off alone, but together they could do it. Even the weakest and hardest hit races could contribute with a few ships (it would help them reduce the pressure on the home front).

[edited]

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:56 am: Edit

I agree with Carl-Magnus Carlsson on this one. If the Alpha races hadn't discovered (at least partly by luck) the Rapid Transit Network, X-ships wouldn't have made any difference. The Andros would have won. Their strategic advantages based on the RTN were simply too great.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:26 am: Edit

Alan, how different X2-tech is going to be is answered by the historical background, and some common sense.

First is the needs; what is needed to fight the any improved Andro X-ships? Perhaps a range advantage? Improved phasers would fit the bill.

Would the total firepower be improved?
Well, X1 weapons are both more powerful and can fire more often than non-x ones. I haven't made any calculations but i think, the improvements is up towards 100%.
Is it likely they would make another leap in lethality in just a few years? Perhaps not.
Their efficiensy vs. Andros could be improved.

Also if we did improve strength of defences, and power of weapons, there will be no Bpv room for new abilities and gadgets.
Common sense says suggets that will make for boring ships.

I think X2 outwardly looks a lot like X1, but with not all of the weapons and abilities.
This to save money. For example, what use do you have of Aegis when fighting a race not using any seeking weapons???
Another thing to save money on is seeking weapon control; giving that to the plasma races was a joke.

Number of phasers could be reduced, but compensated for by increasing the number of phasers in the phaser banks that has the best fire arcs.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Quote:

how different X2-tech is going to be is answered by the historical background, and some common sense.

And game balance. In several incarnations of X1 there were balance issues; and I'm far from sure we have resolved them all. X2 ships will have to compete on a level playing field with NX, XP and X1.

During the Trade Wars I suspect most Empires will seek to avoid direct confrontation, preferring instead to wage a proxy war of containment and economic sphere of influence. It will be fun to see everyone see the Feds as the bad guy for their predatory trade practices.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:35 pm: Edit

We all ready do!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Quote:

I agree with Carl-Magnus Carlsson on this one. If the Alpha races hadn't discovered (at least partly by luck) the Rapid Transit Network, X-ships wouldn't have made any difference. The Andros would have won. Their strategic advantages based on the RTN were simply too great.


I think we're all agreed that the S-Bridge should be able let X2 ships hunt down the RTN even if all of it is destroyed before those ship are launch because no one wants a nasty Andro surprise spreading in their territory.


As for flavour changes rather than magnitude changes.
• ASIF
• S-Bridge
• Any box
• speed 32!?!
• Modular ships???
I don't really think well loose out if weapons get changed in magnitude and not flavour.


Quote:

During the Trade Wars I suspect most Empires will seek to avoid direct confrontation, preferring instead to wage a proxy war of containment and economic sphere of influence. It will be fun to see everyone see the Feds as the bad guy for their predatory trade practices.


Yes and X2 design will aid that ( by luck more than design ) through the lower rate of weapons per ship and padding of the ASIF.
The GPs would rather sell 2 NCLs to a neutral world than send a CX because if two CX bump into each other, one ship explodes around the time her captain considers the possibility that his initial volley didn't have the desired effect and that perhaps disengagment might be in order.
Sending an XDD that meets another XDD will at least buy the captains time to think about disengagement, without loosing all men and material.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 02:15 pm: Edit

heh, after the GW, the Pacification program, AND the Andro invasion there will be NO hulls left over to sell to anyone. Selling arms to allies is something you do in peace time, when you have the fleet size you desire, and spare production capacity.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 02:17 pm: Edit

MJC,

Quote:

I don't really think well loose out if weapons get changed in magnitude and not flavour.

eh, you mean the opposite, right?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 02:22 pm: Edit

MJC;

Speed 32 worries me a lot more than the other suggestions, and also more than the issue of 10 point versus 12 point photons. My favorite race is the Tholians, who are the only race with standard tech in the early years. And the humble Patrol Corvette is much more powerful against an EY opponent than the BPV would indicate.

In my opinion the issue isn't overloadable weapons (the Tholian PC is phaser-only) or superior EW capability (the PC doesn't really generate enough power to use its theoretical EW advantage) but the synergistic effects of an absolute speed advantage coupled with phaser-1s - when everyone else has phaser-2s and non-overloadable torpedos. The combination of these two advantages allow the Tholian to play "range-5" games, where its ph-1s allow it to outgun much larger ships. And if the Tholian is careful there really isn't much the opponent can do about it.

And I don't think this can be fixed by fiddling with BPV. For example, I think the BPV ratio for the Tholian PC and the Klingon E4 is probably about right. And the E4 BPV compared to the D3 or D4 Early Years cruiser is about right. But PC versus D3 or D4, the BPV doesn't work.

This doesn't mean speed 32 can't work for X2. For one thing, the absolute speed superiority is only 32 versus 31, a much less dramatic advantage than that which an MY ship has over an EY ship. But I think speed 32 needs to be approached very cautiously, and examined as part of the entire X2 package.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 04:06 am: Edit

CMC:

1) When war ends you tend to start selling hulls because you've ot more ships than you need ( assuming you won ).

2) I said what I mean ( although I did mean we'll and not well ) in that with a whole bunch of wacky non weapon things, we don't need wacky weapons.


A.T.:

Playtest be the judge.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 03:20 pm: Edit

MJC,
1) true for some wars, but not as a general rule.
If you win by out-producing your enemy and crush him by superior numbers, as happened in WW2, then yes, you got surplus stuff to sell.
But the GP was not in that position. Being pressed back to their all the way to their home systems they got lucky to dicover the RTN, and then used their last bullet to win, so to speak. After OpU they had territority to reclaim and definitely fleets to rebuild.

2) new abilities for old weapons is ok with me. But not actually improving the basic damage of those weapons.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Carl, ignore what you think for a moment and consider what we want to see happen. We have to set up something called a Trade War, but what that is isn’t clear. Between the GW, ISC and Andros the Neutral Zones are huge. Some planets have been behind enemy lines for 30 years. No taxation without representation and all that. After a generation of fending for themselves the idea of fealty to the Emperor is simply quaint. These are independent worlds now. They may eventually rejoin the Empire, but by choice, not by force of arms. The Empires lack the will after 30 years of war to militarily annex thousands of former colonies. Instead they sell their war surplus to these newly independent colonies and various politically connected trade cartels.

Why is it set up this way? Because we want to create an environment that encourages multi-generational conflict between any combination of (surplus) races in a historical context. Change the history around to suit your needs, but let’s keep the objective intact.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 05:05 pm: Edit

"The regional governors now have direct control over their territories."

Anyway, Tos, I usually see it rendered as Trade Wars, plural. To me it implies several localized conflicts.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 05:07 pm: Edit

I have no objection to the use of the plurl.

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