Archive through June 04, 2005
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Archive through June 04, 2005
The original background material for the Trade Wars talked about there being hundreds of little conflicts. That sounds pretty interesting to me, and allows for all kinds of confrontations.
The trades wars "hundreds of little conflicts", maybe some not-so-small conflicts "mini-campaign" does sound interesting. Just when you think you have your trade roures secure the Xorks show up and start blowing up everyone. It would be nice to have a new F&E scale map or overlays for the current map to depict the NZs and areas of independant space/providences/planets.
I would expect freighters would start arming. Perhaps a tramp Q ship with XP tech. Besides pirates there may be letters of Marque.
Tos, on the contrary
Quote:Change the history around to suit your needs
is what is causing problems for this project.
Instead you adapt your ideas to the limitations of history.
"Trade wars" has never been more than a name.
To try to shape the history to enable that to happen, whatever that is, is a way to get yourself a serious headache.
But don't feel annnoyed, there are other things to look forward too.
What is likely to happen after the OpU is a race towards the original borders. Tos thinks the races would no be interested in that, but I don't; 1) they have an obligation to contact survivng colonies. 2) if they don't reestablish the original border the enemy might try take a bit of their terrority ( I can see the Lingons and Lyrans use seize that opportuniy after OpU to expand their terrority into Hydran space).
Sorry for this being brief
gottsa go
Carl,
That's true, but they may not be able to. One of the questions that hasn't been answered about established history - that is, part of the timeline that has been written and published and isn't negotiable - is what the Organian "Era of Tranquility" entails. It is put into place right after Op Unity, but the specifics are vague. Is it just a name the Organians use because all the wars are over? Or, do they enforce it? And if so, what are the rules? Does everyone go back to pre-war borders, or do they stay as they are when the rule comes down? We don't know, and we need to.
If, for example, the Era of Tranquility is simply a name, with no set of rules and limitations by the Organians themselves, then there is room for all sorts of interpretation. But if it is not just a name, and they chose to freeze the borders as they were at the end of Op Unity, then we have all the makings for the Trade Wars to be really varied and fun; lots of open space with free, independent systems that no one can just go gobble up and annex. You'd have to trade for whatever they have that you used to get for free, or as tribute. And, since everyone else can try to trade with them too...well, you get the idea.
Personally, I prefer that last interpretation the most, because it leads to the most possibilities. Everyone can end up having a little scrap with anyone else, allies or not. You can have a Kzinti fighting a Fed over a mining planet, or a Lyran blockading an agro world against the Klingons; no limits, really, and when combined with a new generation of technology, you have the makings for one of the more dynamic periods in the game, with endless possible scenarios with unusual or different objectives than just kill the other guy.
Carl, my concern is that every independent industrialized world that survives the General War, the ISC and the Andros is likely armed to the teeth. They won’t have X-tech, but nothing is stopping them from significant production of Bombers, Fighters, PFs, Defsats, ground bases and a standing army. If they are advanced enough it’s even possible for them to produce freighters and police ships. From there it’s not much of a stretch to start construction of a Frigate or Base Station.
Even if an Empire were to invest the resources necessary to militarily annex a world, how many small worlds could they occupy while keeping a billion locals under their thumb? Revolution would be rampant, even in the core. Sure they would try it on a few strategic worlds, but I don’t think they would get very far. Think of how much fun Great Britain would have trying to militarily and simultaneously re-establish governmental control over all its (non-US) former colonies. British technology is clearly superior, but good luck controlling Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. Possible? Maybe. Practical? Nope. Not even close.
Its better for all involved to negotiate a settlement. In exchange for favorable trade status and a mutual defense treaty, here’s a bunch of surplus ships. Why are their surplus ships if the Empires were pushed to near extinction? I could give you the long technical explanation of why it requires many, many ships to defend against an anytime, anywhere Andro incursion; but why bother. The game reason there are surplus ships is we need to give them to the free colonies so we can generate interesting scenarios.
Mike, yes like the "trade wars" that is also an unknown factor. Myself I like the the view of the Organian as being powerful, but with limited reach, as was mentioned in the history of the GW (in CL 17), IIRC. They failed to stop either the GW, ISC pacification, or the Andros war. Quite possibly they were only concerned over keepin the peace were they lived on the Fed klingon border.
(It's funny but the name "era of T" makes me think of the "Thousand year Reich". Orions and Organians are definitely on my list)
Also I suspect the last interpretation of yours also would have other consequences; The orions would probably grow dramatically while preying on trade in the NZ. GP would have serious difficulties stopping that if prevented form having bases there. If anything I want to see no orions I X2. (IRL pirates have never had their own weapons research as I have heard of.)
I don't mind them getting behind in the arms race and gradually disappear.
Tos,
Quote:my concern is that every independent industrialized world that survives the General War, the ISC and the Andros is likely armed to the teeth.
Yes, Satelites, phaser-IVs, fighters, etc.
(I am asuming you are talking not about a big colony hear, but of minor races, right?)
But so what? all their power doesn't matter if they got no fleet. A planet could even have twenty times the economy of the Federation, they would still be totally impotent if they have no warships. (which is another, of several, good reasons not to sell any to them)
Military annex a world? No, that is NOT the way to dominate any independent world. "Your planet is inside our borders, mate! Make us happy, or..."
There is a reason many races like Kzintis, Romulans (IIRC), had subject races inside their border that was prevented from reaching space; it handed the major races total control over anyone else inside their borders.
Quote:Also I suspect the last interpretation of yours also would have other consequences; The orions would probably grow dramatically while preying on trade in the NZ.
Very true, and a good point...and good for the game, too. More pirate activity = more cool pirate scenarios. How about a joint operation between a Fed and Klingon XDD against some X1 pirate raiders? Lots of possibilities there.
Heh, they will grow too strong with a LargeNZ scenario. The GPs will lack the range and base facilites to conduct the neccessary patrols to keep them down. Eventually the pirates will move into the GP races territories in force.*
The Pirates = the new enemy?
Perhaps the source tapes was damaged and it should have been "PROTECT THE Trade, wars" actually? 
Hm, now when thinking on it it makes some sense. The Pirates certainly preyed on colonies and vulnerable worlds during the heydays of the Andro invasion. They grow and then they need to expand. I don't think that they conciously decide to invade other races, they just multiply to fast, and when trade goes down they need to move to greener pastures. It is quite possible the cartel lords would prevent this, if only the could. But control over independents would be difficult to excercise if those choose to flee the enforcers 'en masse'.
Carl: In some of the old history of the SFU many pirates went legit when profits for doing so grew larger than Pirating profits. The oppertunities in the new NZ's were too alluring so pirating actually dropped.
Why command a few ships when you can command a whole world and not hav anyone after you for it?
Of course, that is why many of these worlds are not too quick to re-up in their local Empire. Now we have many merc/pirate units defending independant worlds.
The Feds can't attack their old systems but can leverage them in other ways that would promote conflict and they can guard against other Empires from taking them (which is what they want to have happen so the independant system will see they need the Federation so why not join up?).
Many of the other Empires will just use the frontal assault except for those planets that prove to perhaps be more useful as independant systems... for the time being, anyway.
That, and the fact that many of these independents may have their own local defense ships to help protect against pirates. You know; planet X has lots of dilithium. They used to be a Fed world, and now aren't, so they can trade dilithium to the highest bidder. They buy surplus warships from the Klingons, along with defsats, and maybe a monitor or two.
One thing about this, though, is that there will be a need for faster freighters, and better escorts. If you're having to go two hexes into a big NZ to get something that used to be in your territory, the trip is gonna be a risky one. Faster freighters and more capable escorts - like X2 Frigates - would be very popular.
Indeed... and it just so happens...
You all know what Letters of Marque are? An example: The Federation directly, or maybe indirectly through another party, gives legal authority to a private vessel to conduct privateering (raiding) in an area. In a way it is, from the Federation side, legal piracy. a historical example would be Sir Frances Drake. He was a privateer working under the authority of Elizabeth the First and raided Spanish settlements.
My though or opinion is, many races would resort to this type of clandestine warfare. You would have privateers, warlords, independant systems, pirates, the races governments all involved in the "Trade Wars". The larger NZs makes it easier for these conflicts to occur without igniting another limited or general war.
The US passed the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act in 1976. It created a 200 mile EEZ. The USCG and NOAA Fisheries enforced provisions of the act. A really popular ship patrol was the ALPATs into the Gulf of Alaska. In a similar fashion Races will, through patrols and unilateral acts, attempt to control, regain control, and/or annex regions of space. All these other parties mentioned above will resist. Yes I think the "Trade Wars" will be very interesting.
Quote:But so what? all their power doesn't matter if they got no fleet. A planet could even have twenty times the economy of the Federation, they would still be totally impotent if they have no warships. (which is another, of several, good reasons not to sell any to them)
Military annex a world? No, that is NOT the way to dominate any independent world. "Your planet is inside our borders, mate! Make us happy, or..."
There is a reason many races like Kzintis, Klingons (IIRC), had subject races inside their border that were prevented from reaching space; it handed the major races total control over anyone else inside their borders.
Yes you can capture territories more easily if the neutral worlds don't have a fleet...but:-
• If the neutral worlds have a fleet then they can signal news to you concerning pirate opperations and indeed Andro resurgence if any.
• If you sell just enough vessels at the right price ( too low and they become a threat to you by buying a lot of ships, too high and they look to building their own ships), they won't be powerful enough to gain power for themselves in a straight out fight ( particularly if revolt only gets stirred up in a few planets at any one time )...If they have your worn out DWs and CWs and you have DDXs and CXs and new XDDs and XCMs comming on line, they won't be able to gain their freedom.
• If they have a few ships of their own then you'll save money as they fight priates instead of you.
• By training their crews on your homeworld you can keep an eye on potential trouble by talking to them about their local political situation, plus you cause them to need to turn to you to keep their fleet opperating which strengthens their ties to you and weakens their ties to potential enemy empires.
The trick is to be like a drug dealer.
Sell just enough to get `em hooked on your product but not so much that you'll O.D. (as they try to smash your empire).
On privateers.
Yes, the Empires will use some pretty dirty means to gain control, politically and militarily.
The TRADE WARS should be a very interesting time.
Heck you could even have Orions profiteers going mercenary and defending the highest bidding worlds against an enemy nation, or even their own former nation, or even fellow Orions. I've said before there's room for insurgencies as well, and dare I add terrorism. Again, all kinds of opportunities to keep Guard, Police, and Frigate forces busy.
Another potential monkey wrench is that SVC at one point suggested the possibility that there might not be any Trade Wars. Granted he might've just been mulling over an idea and has since discarded it, and may not even remember suggesting it. We don't know what he has in mind for the X2 era, other than:
- no Supplement #2 redux
- must play nice with GW-XP-X1
- semi-vague threats of Xorks later on
An Orion mercinary vessel defending a planet from becomming some other Orion captain's personal theifdom...it's getting cooler by the minute!
MJC, that is exactly why a neutral planet would not want to buy used warships from you; once they do they have to go to you for training, maintenace, repairs, refits, intelligence etc.
They would become an 'de facto' ally in everyones eyes, which what YOU want of course.
Stiil, I doubt there will be hulls to spare for sale.
The only objection here is that this state of affairs won't last; the major races will want to reclaim their original territories and they als ohave the muscle to do that eventually.
Quote:MJC, that is exactly why a neutral planet would not want to buy used warships from you; once they do they have to go to you for training, maintenace, repairs, refits, intelligence etc.
Sure they would; they already have. There are lots of national guard ships (R8 is full of them), and in the EY period before Star Fleet, several planets had their own ships; the Andorians, Vulcans, and Alpha-Centaurians and Rigellians to name the ones I know of. No reason a planet that is both A) wealthy enough to afford them and B) angry enough at their "protecting" empire for getting them behind enemy lines wouldn't opt for having a small defense force of their own. Granted, not all would, but some could and would. It makes sense, and provides lots of opportunities for good game play. The need for protection could lead to all sorts of neat scenarios. Mercenary pirates, small fleets of up-gunned GW ships meant for local defense (like the WYN and their up-gunned ships), double-dealing with multiple empires to play them off on one another...heck, even a captured monster might be a fun option.
As for the state of affairs lasting, we don't know how long it will last. It again depends on the Organian question; how much control are they exerting during the Era of Tranquility? If it's enough to absolutely stop anyone from re-expanding their borders, well, the trade war period could last a really long time. I think that's a question we need answered from SVC before we can shape the Trade Wars; the EOT is going to occur, and is already part of the official time line. We just need some more detail about how impact it will have.
Quote:Still, I doubt there will be hulls to spare for sale.
One group that will go on the market are all the hulls that can't gain the XP up-grade ( NCLs and DWs ).
Quote: The only objection here is that this state of affairs won't last; the major races will want to reclaim their original territories and they also have the muscle to do that eventually.
One part of the TRADE WARS that I have always seen is that some of the wars are indeed THE RECLAIMATION WARS.
I don't see a probalem with a neutral planet buying obsolete hulls from multiple empires...SVC might see it differently but new an interesting match ups of fire power should be fun, like a watered down three way fight.
Mike, my point is that a "neutral" planet is neutral only so long as it do nothing that can be interpreted as abandoning their line of neutrality; like buying a warship from anyone.
If they got warships all ready they are probably of indigenous design. I don't have R8 or EY, but IIRC from scenarios in CL they use their own Rigelian and Vulcan ships, right?
I know exactly how long EOT will last. Plain and simple; as long SVC think EOT is good for the SFU history.
MJC, considering the low rate production of X1 ships those hull types, DWs ans CWs, are needed to flesh out the fleets and make the reclaiming the old territory possible.
They would probaly consist of non-combat variants mostly, like scouts for survey duties.
There will be a time when those ships are not much needed anylonger, but that will not happen until long past the reclaimation period.