I don't think even four Fighters can deal with an Orion LR.

If the Orion has two G-racks and a Photon as her arms, she'll have three 360° Ph-1s and using the last reloads as ADDs she can mount a number of defenses depending on what the Freighter has.


If the Freighter launches F-16s then the LR can simply take type VIF hits or out run their 12 hexes and kill fighters from R5 with her Ph-1s and keep moving to stay out of effective gatling range. She can even launch type IF and IF-a drones to kill any F-16 cripples. The Photon could be fun for hitting F-16s too.

If the Freighter launches F-18s and the F-18s launch all their drones, then the LR can run away, ED-WW and whilst she'll spend a turn at speed 10 before she can get back up to attack speed, the fighters will need to return and re-arm ( 2 deck crews by two spaces of drones by four fighters ) in four turns before the fighters are back at full strength...an over run with four pairs of Ph-3s and four pairs of type IVFs is actually survivable and there's no garrenttee the fighter will get that chance if the LR does ED-WW.

If the F-18s launch half their type IF drones then the LR, can kill 3 with phasers, has 2 tractors, and will plow through 1.5 drones per ADD-8 per wave for a total of 6 drones, meaning she can really deal with 11 drones if she has to and they come in different waves...she can still deal maxing out with 8 drones if they all come at once, which is exactly what the four F-18s have ( with reguard to type I drones ).


Basically an LR won't be harmed by four fighters to a degree that will cause the LR captain to want to leave, they can only set up a stalling pattern until it becomes time to re-arm or the F-16s-18s are all crippled.

Now 8 fighters, that might actually be able to inflict enough damage on the LR to buy time to go back and re-arm.


Now an AxCVL has advantages if you are going to have 8 fighter why not go the whole hog, gain from having deck-crews and BPs in large numbers ( 2 BPs instead of none ) and can loan EW.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 05:13 am: Edit

MJC: If you could guarantee that pirates would switch to such a defensively minded weaponry suite, I would immediately order fighters deployed on the ducktails. No, the fighters would not generate damage but the pirates lack of offense will shorten raids as the pirate reduced to ADD rounds will not want to attack any convoy or risk encountering a fleet unit. Sometimes, one's cleverness can backfire.

The problem with a small number of fighters on a suspected freighter is that the raider will retain a number of weapons able to kill fighters in their very vulnerable stages. (Certainly, my experience with Hydran or Kzinti Q-ships operating alone has not been favorable.) A full convoy can provide sufficient targets that the raider can't reserve weapons just in case fighters are available.

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 05:47 am: Edit

Something interesting to throw into the discussion is SG4.0 "Basic Piracy"... the convoy (and escorts) start at WS-0. So two fighters may be armed and ready for launch on each carrier, but no more.

If we take this as a 'typical' pirate attack scenario - then the fighters are perhaps useful in that they can be ready turn 1, giving the Orion a little something to deal with while the convoy warms the phasers up... Of course if the pirate starts too close the fighters will be dead before their fire control comes online. From SG4.0 it seems pirates regularly sneak up on freighters!

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 07:51 am: Edit

David: You skip the minor problem that these ships should be counted as "casual carriers" and therefore have no fighters ready at WS-0. Designing groups of "true carriers" with tiny flight groups so all fighters are always fully armed seems to be trying to exploit a rule simplification.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 08:19 am: Edit

I like RWW's comments that adding these fighter ducktails to armed freighters makes them almost the equivilant of Q-ships. I see this as being a HUGE benefit. Converting a freighter to a Q-ship is expensive and you lose a lot of cargo space.

Given the choice between having a large Q-ship, a small armed freighter, and 2 large armed freighters carrying the ~150 cargo boxes of cargo or having 3 large armed freighters with fighter ducktails, I'd choose the latter every time. It's cheaper, more efficient, and will fight off the same level of raider.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 10:16 am: Edit

First, I doubt you will get F-16s, more likely F4s and such.

Cost is skewed because in SFB fighters are bought at COMBAT bpv tactically, while in F&E they are replenished eternally for free.

The point is that the skid I am advocating costs the freighter NOTHING, it comes from the organization providiing it, Starfleet, ploice, NG, insurance company, reinsurance broker.

Second, the fighters are NOT going to be BETWEEN the freighters and raiders if they are ust 2 or 4 in number. They will sit a couple of hexes back to avoid the zone of death for P1 and Disr. Their contribution comes when the LR comes CLOSE to the freighter to tractor/board the freighter.

I would expect a LR to have about as much trouble with 4 fighters as he would have with a pf. Maybe a little less if he chooses option mounts perfectly. But the point is that a standard convoy battle is NOT LR vs 1 freighter and 1 POL, because the police cannot afford to convoy every singleton frieghter wandering around.

Perfect, no. Better than nothing, yes.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 11:29 am: Edit

Quite frankly, such units aren't even going to get as good a fighter as the F-4. They are probably looking at F-8s or F-20s. If they are being stocked for a very special purpose, they might get temporary access to F-18s.

But their normal loadout would be F-7s, F-8s, or F-20s. (If they are really, really lucky, they could get F-20Cs.)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 01:29 pm: Edit

The idea of a government allowing carefully vetted private corporations to establish fairly substantial military forces (much more than some ex-military security guards with small arms) is historically supportable. A prime example would be the British East India Company. For a significant portion of its existance, the Company (though established by Royal Charter, it was privately owned) effectively had what amounted to its own Army and Navy.

The history of the British East India Company (other countries had similar organizations) and its relations with the British government is complex. Sometimes Parliament attempted to restrict the powers of the Company and bring it under greater governmental control. At other times, especially when the government was financially strapped or facing some sort of crisis, the Company acted almost independently and with little government oversight, as long as the government got its "cut" (i.e. taxes, duties, and the occasional well placed bribe).

The problems the British government sometimes had with the British East India Company would be an object lesson why a government in the SFU would be careful about this sort of thing (see comment about vetting in first paragraph), and might decide the risk/benefit calculations made it inadvisable. And different governments might come to different conclusions on the matter. Though the proposal was first made regarding the Federation, something like this might be particularly appropriate for the Hydrans and their guild structure.

But in any event, the notion of governments allowing private corporations to deploy substantial military forces under quasi-governmental control is not intrinsically absurd.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 01:17 am: Edit

R.W.:

1) Only the last Reaload was ADDs ( although there could be more if the ducktails and skids are likely to provide more fighters ).
2) The single Photons does good damage when directed at the large Freighter and backed up by 3Ph-1s and the LR has effectively unlimited time before rescue.

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The point is that the skid I am advocating costs the freighter NOTHING, it comes from the organization providiing it, Starfleet, ploice, NG, insurance company, reinsurance broker.

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Second, the fighters are NOT going to be BETWEEN the freighters and raiders if they are ued 2 or 4 in number. They will sit a couple of hexes back to avoid the zone of death for P1 and Disr. Their contribution comes when the LR comes CLOSE to the freighter to tractor/board the freighter.

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Perfect, no. Better than nothing, yes.

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A prime example would be the British East India Company. For a significant portion of its existance, the Company (though established by Royal Charter, it was privately owned) effectively had what amounted to its own Army and Navy.

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By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 02:02 am: Edit

"It can't cost nothing.
1) You have to stop making runs to be in dry dock to get the skids and ducktails fitted.
A Fighter can not just opperate from an Admin skid or duck tail as the hull repair patches need to be replaced ( a long with about 5000 other spare parts ) and stopping to refill the spares bins costs time that could otherwise be spent making trade.
2) It costs money in dry-dock fees and welders wages to attach the skid and duck tails"


DO YOU EVEN READ what I write?
1) I am NOT ADVOCATING ducktails, that is from other people.

2) I advicate a skid, and they do NOT require dockyards to attach, just like they attach cargo pods. SFB has never quantified the time needed for a freighter to attach a pod, but the impression I get is a couple of hours. Look athe rules fdor LTTs and Tugs.

3) The cost is NOT borne by the freigher, it is borne by whomever decides THIS cargo needs some extra portection. So the insurer crunches some numbers and decides... Or the local NG batt decides to send a couple of fighters to "Topgub" competition, or whatever.

4) Weapon status zero? Well, that should be VERY unusual. Look at the SFB tacticla intel rules and even if a freighter has only the detection ability of a pf, it should have a few turns to prepare before the Orion reaches range 30.

5) Cloaks would alter the above, but they are expensive.

6)The reason sccenarios have the convoy at WS zero is so the LR has a chance.

I wish SPP could weigh in here...

I see the fighters (say F6 or equal early fighter with minimal capacity and very obselete.) They launch when the LR is 30 hexes out. Enter EM and lurk on the far side of the freighter from hte LR until it decides run in. Fighters HET to FA, drop em and fire a type 1 drone and resume em.

The point is that a LR vs large freighter is REALLY unbalanced. Let me look at some ssds and BPVs and I'll post a "fair fight." The point NOW is that a freighter or two MUST have an escort (or a passel of other convoy ships) ot have ANY chance against the smallest of pirates.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 03:24 am: Edit

MCG: There is still a cost. The single skid with a pair of fighters (assuming drone speed upgrades) has a similar economic cost to the standard small freighter; much the same applies to a large freighter and the pair of skids (with 4 fighters) it might carry. Someone somewhere is paying that cost. Is equipping a freighter this way worth the other freighter that won't be built? Is equipping 4 large freighters like this worth the colony whose defenses have been stripped away?

Historically (real world), convoying lightly armed freighters has worked better than relying on well armed independant sailers. In a SFU context, a handful of fighters launching a smattering of drones are not much of a threat to a mobile opponent. (The Kzinti Q-ship relies on the surprise value of its own drones and the possibility of a surprise tractor preventing the raider from running away.)

Thus, it seems we return to the original notation; fighters on skids or ducktails will be rare. One can justify it for a one-off scenario. Should fighters carried this way appear in every convoy fight, standard campaign methods for expressing displeasure with unimaginative lack of realism should be followed.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Pirate story:

A few assumptions

1) We will use tac intel. Freighters use it at pf effectiveness (as required in the rules), S5 is range 75, S4 is range 100, S3 is range 150, S2 is range 200 and S1 is range 300. (if I have the S 1 to 5 numbers reversed, oops, you can figure it out...) These seem like reasonable (and beneficial to MJC) assumptions.

2) MJC has declared he wants a photon and 2 g racks on his LR (or whatever, feel free to buy another Orion ship). He is the Orions. He has 100 BPV total to spend on his ship, cloaks, weapons, drones, t bombs, whatever.

3) ANY BPV used up by firing/ destruction/ whatever it off is COST: Subtract 5 cargo spaces from profit per economic BPV used up. (gotta love split BPV) Subtract 50 cargo spaces for each engine box destroyed (even if repaired during the scenario) Engine boxes must be paid for PER destruction, including repaired and used up again. (well, it is just harder and harder to fix 'em, thus more expensive, the more you push 'em) MJC is at break even (after paying salaries, food/ environmental expenses, bribes, fuel, maintenence, ship purchase and Cartel operating liscense fees) if he captures 300 cargo spaces (this is 6 boxes of 50 spaces each on the freighter, but will require 12 orion sized boxes on MJCs ship to hold).

4) MJC has to ESCAPE with his loot for it to count. So we would have to play out the escape (includeing die rolls for the response as below).
5) MCG has chosen a large freighter with 2 skids, and 4 Zorans. (note that MJC has a better network of spies than I do, or at least MJC thinks so) I get to be the Klingons. NOTE: a sting might substitute a Q ship, add a PF in "ready to use" per the cargo rules, etc etc. I will play fair and will decide in advance what I am doing, but this is supposed to be a fair fight! A fighter skid costs the same as other skids, PLUS fighters, cost to rent it even if it is undamaged is 10% of purchase price. The NG is "renting out" the fighters for free, but expending them will cost the same as if a pirate had stolen them.

6) As the Klingos I do NOT get to call for ISF or DSF rescue until I get tac intel confirming his Identity as an Orion, detect active fire control from MJC, detect a cloaking device (there is no honorable reason for anyone to have one of those things) or MJC fires. A response force (say a D5 or a couple F5/E4's or equal) will appear 30 hexes away (from a point midway between MJC and me), WS 3, Speed max, in a random direction. I get to roll each turn before EA, starting turn 6. A 1/6th chance of the response force arriving at that instant.

7) As usual, BPV difference between the forces is awarded as a bonus to the side with LESS BPV at a rate of 1 BPV costs 5 cargo space.

8) There is no way to win as a merchant/ export ministry/ insurance company/ National Guard here, whatever happens will COST me money, unless I capture MJC or get a destruction bounty from the ISF. I'm not betting on it.


Stardate 175.10.2 "Digger" MaJiC, Captain of the infamous Orion pirate LR ‘Love Ewe’ was very pleased with most of the reports he received from his “sources” at the Sector Ministry of Trade and Export Finance on Shagistan III. This one was no exception.

“Large freighter Weary Donkey is scheduled to arrive at Kris Kringle IV (hereafter KK) on Stardate 175.11.4 with a bulk load (approximately 50 cargo boxes in size, another carrier may be substituted for the usual array of reasons) of dried fruit and nuts and leave KK on 175.11.8 with a load of fruitcake. Delivery to Shagistan is scheduled to be 175.11.18. Scheduled return to KK with a load of toy fabricators is contingent of the receipt of the fruitcake as trade payment. NO escort has been scheduled by the ISF despite several requests.”

“Digger” smiled and plotted where to best intercept the Weary Donkey with holds full of fruitcake. Fruitcake, with it’s dense composition and sticky texture, is a key component of the Orion “stealth” coating on every pirate ship. “Aye, we ockers will be ready,” he mused. With a photon in the nose and 2 g racks he outgunned any lone freighter.

Sector NG coordinator, Senior Commander Krafton looked across the table at the representatives of the Shagistan Fruitcake Marketing Kollective and the KK Bakery Kibbutz. By meeting over lunch "informally," each side was preserving it's options. Waving a drumstick, he summarized the request from the Kollective, Kibbutz and and, more pointedly” the regional governor. “OK, you are worried about losing another cargo of fruitcake. Ever since the last cargo was taken cargo insurance rates are too high to make a decent profit. Ship owners are getting squeezed by the Maritime insurers and are raising rates, thus cargo costs more to ship. All these mean lower profits, which means no money to pay taxes, so no tax money coming in means Army and Local Defense Units will have to defer some equipment upgrades and pay raises.”

After a moment, he looked at the representatives across from him. “If the governor approves (pretty likely, the Kollective was a major contributor) I will see about getting you an escort from the resources available from the Klingon Army. Maybe some fighters and a boarding team if YOU charter a couple of CVE skids. Maybe we can get the ISF to send a Qship to tote the cargo, or a fast freighter. Might be that we can get an escort ship from the ISF or DSF by sponsoring a "training exercise" with a bit of sponsored R&R afterward. NONE of these means to ensure your cargo gets special protection are free. You have to pony up some of hte cost, some I can underwrite as training etcetera.rty for the With a chorus of agreement the leaders stood and headed out.

When the Weary Donky slowly pulled into orbit (on impulse power) above KK with sheilds and fire control down, as usual, the entire planetary defense force was on high alert, as usual. Between a couple dozen old fighters, a half dozen older model medium bombers, some absolutely elderly ground bases with active targeting emitters, a customs skiff, the Orbital Transfer Platform (little more than a place to stockpile surge cargo loads, house the customs people and dock), minefield sensors and the ring of defense sats, near space was almost full of sensor pulses.

He had brought his cargo TO the planet and now he and his crew had to ferry it down to the surface using his and the civilian transporter network. A day (staggered) groundside leaves, another reloading and he and his crew would be off to Shagistan. He was glad that somebody FINALLY realized what an attractive target the annual “Fruitcakes for Funstuff” special cargo round trip. At his last stop he had picked up from the ISF a pair of defense skids, each little more than a couple of bays for fighters, a few bunkrooms and a pair of common rooms for meals and recreation. ISF rents tehm out for a nominal fee (and a huge deposit), but others had to see to manning them.

On KK, Major Mrafton was briefing the “away team” leader for the final time on his grand father and father's plan. (Nepotism is pretty common in the NG of every races) “M2 Mrafton you will command the Special Operation Combat (SOC)team. You have four fighters and their deck crews and you WILL make sure the freighter performs up to standard. M1 M'appy M'oyington is flight leader, but YOU are in command. DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR?” The entire staff leaped to their feet “SIR, YES SIR.”

As the team wandered out of the breifing room to get their duffel bags, they had to wonder at Major Mrafton's comment early in the breifing "If we can make this trip without ever firing a shot, we win..."

By Andrew C. Cowling (Andrew) on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton: while I like the concept of fighter-augmented freighters, I feel that some of your assumptions are off-base.

I feel that the more likely approach is to take a freighter whose owner has already fitted a standard ducktail, and reconfigure the existing shuttle bay to accomodate fighters.

This would tend to occur either during the General War, or later during the Andromedan Invasion, as a response to the increased risks to commercial freight.

For an unescorded single freighter, two or four fighters are of little use except to buy time or to fend off a swarm of bombardment drones. On the other hand, as part of a convoy with a Pol or two and possibly an Auxiliary Cruiser escort, the fighters can augment the existing defences - possibly turning the tide of an otherwise closely balanced engagement. There are never enough escort carriers to go around, and the nearest available auxiliary carrier may have been pulled off to ferry fighters to a base or CV group.

One corollary of these assumptions is that the opponent is unlikely to be a lone LR. I would suggest that a convoy battle involving a BR and/or one or two DBR, or against an Andro Python, is a more likely scenario. If you want it particularly nasty, assume that the Orions have brought along a CVL and a DBR - the convoy's fighters will be outnumbered and outgunned, but if they can tie up some of the pirate fighters, they may allow the convoy and escorts to fend off the attackers.

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 02:29 am: Edit

OK lades and germs.
Would it happen??? R1.59B (P6 col2 par7)in Mod R8 clearly states that it DID happen. That is enough for me.
Why is fine to discuss. I have seen some plausible and implausible reasons in this thread. What it boils down to is that for whatever reason (legal or illegal of the ships' crews) we have it documented that both fighters and GAS shuttles were used on ducktales. If on L-DTs why not on LASH or other SHTL equipped skids eludes me. I'm out of this discussion. Knock yourselves out if you want.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 04:48 am: Edit

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One can justify it for a one-off scenario.

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By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 08:51 am: Edit

Steve Cain (Stevecain), I didn't know you were IN this discussion. But I appreciate your input.

Andrew C. Cowling "... little use except to buy time or to fend off a swarm of bombardment drones..."
EXACTLY! BUT a ducktail is a permanent arrangement, this allows a ship to increase it's self protective value... A ducktail is nice and it would be nice to have one and get fighters assigned, but the freighter Captain leaves HIS shuttles behind? Besides, this could be IN ADDITION. Frankly given MJCs weapon choice, I would suspect a scatterpack, so a weasel might be nice. I might want to use a scatterpack too. Remember, the cargo ship/Qship/AuxCVL/whatever captain has a distress call out and the fleet SHOULD be coming sooner or later. I used the time and probabilities of arrival from the Basic set convoy raid scenario.

MJC, if there are enough ships, SURE you might stage all the convoys fighters over to the local "true carrier" and get them refitted with a single squadron chip (it tells us this is legal in Module J iirc).

ANYWAY, MJC, given the above, what will you do as the orion? I need to know if you are going to be cloaked until I detect you, fading in at range XXX or coming at me at dash speed as soon as you detect me????

Some thoughts to chew on, 1) my skid detachment is in ADDITION and totally seperate from the ships crew. So they might have abilities not normally associated with merchants. 2) While I am plodding aboard the Weary Donkey I have ONE of my flier types making sure the sensors are being watched. (well I have 5 pilots including the flight commander, so 1 can sit in the control room, 1 on deck ready to man the CAP/ready 5 fighter while the others...). 3) I am a Klingon WARRIOR, not a civilian, so I take pride in winning and my duty, and will not let a few false alarms put me off vigilence. 4) You do not know my EXACT course, generally yes, exact no. 5) for that matter, you don't know EXACTLY what is in the skids yet. Might be something besides a few zorans...

I will give you a hint, ANY ship on a "collision course" will be challenged by subspace radio and a course change made to confirm if you are coming FOR me, or just happen to coming in my general direction. As soon as a ship seems to be approaching, the SKID people are going to go to alert status (well, we get bored easily in this can) while the SHIP will wait until more is known...

Remember, look at the tactical intel levels and game out what YOU'D do in my position. And a further hint, you STILL don't know what kind of ship I ACTUALLY have, just what you spies sold you as true. The Weary Donkey MIGHT be a Large ARMED Freighter. With a couple of skids and 4 fighters, about the same BPV too...

For a a glimpse of how my twisted mind works, search for "Q'Lever" and read my silly story. I sometimes think that NAMING ships is almost as much fun as working out their drone loads.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 09:08 am: Edit

Just as neat for me would be a skid with a couple of drogues (NOT likely, I admit).

Heh

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 09:46 am: Edit

Well, I come up behind you.

Most any freighter will turn an run when it detects a vessel during wartime, just to be on the safe side.


I'll probably go for a high battle speed and oblique you fom the rear at R4 with Phasers and Photons, planning on changing my fire ( and attack run ) if you launch something unexpected ( be it a drone or fighters ).
I might assume that you don't have fighters and therefore just have my drones loaded as 3 type IF and one IF with half a space of internal armour. I can always load up on ADDs from my last reload if you suddenly pull fighters out on me.


Assuming the fighters are already out, I would move to oblique them ( whilst staying out of R3 of the Freighter) at R5 with Phasers.
I might load up a WW, it depends on the battle speed I can make.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 10:04 am: Edit

OK you are blazing in at max speed from astern. Are you doubling engines? This changes the effect of your stealth. Thus I learn the various Strategic Tac Intel levels at different ranges.

Note, as soon as you ENTER my MAX detection range, I will go to max ECCM to get the best read possible. Of course YOU have to balance the effects of ECM on my ability to read you with the amount of additional suspician raised by jamming my scanners with high generated ecm...

As soon as I detect you on a intercept vector, I will make a change of course to determine if you are actually pursuing me.

Hope you didn’t pick an Orion Hull type with a total warp signature different than any Klingons… (ie ¾ like a fed CL)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 11:17 am: Edit

You're not really playing fair.

You're running at S levels of TacIntel and then claiming that the scenario in the basic set indicates that you'll be rescued in six turns plus some number.

The scenario sets up at tactical ranges for a reason.

If you're going to keep me at S levels for some number of turns then I'ld like some number of turns more equal to that number.


Let's just jump to a tactical level of proximity and go from there.
You know what I am, I know what you are and we'll worry about whether four fighters is enough to buy enough turns for me to be forced to leave before capturing you or not which is the core of this arguement.


Just out of curiosity does the six turns plus die roll effects assume a single large freighter against an LR or does it assume a somewhat tougher Orion? How do the BPVs break down as I'm not using a CR.
Looking at SG4.0 I would think that the time before the die roll starts would be 8 turns not 6.

If I drag the freighter off the map does it count as a capture?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 09:07 pm: Edit

One thing on TacIntell, PFs have a range of 50 for A level information, it also has an S5 range of 100. All other S-level information is currently undefined....

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 10:56 pm: Edit

One also has to wonder if a large freighter will be running all the time with fire control on. It costs to have fire control on (not reflected in SFB). So if the freighter doesn' t have fire control, and the LR comes in with 10 ECM (6 powered plus EM, or 6 powered plus stealth plus passive) and a 3 shift, how does that affect your numbers? When your S5 information drops to 30 hexes (and level A 15 hexes - even with active fire control) things change a little no?

...and you might argue that you'll turn fire control on and max ECCM any time you see a ship. I'd then argue that there are a lot of ships. You meet 6 a day. Your crew gets bored and slack and begins not lighting up like a christmas tree every time a freighter comes into view. Oh - and did you factor in that ECCM only works out to range 100 (D6.313)? Or are we doing something different at strategic ranges?

This whole scenario depends a lot on things which are not defined in the SFB rules, and one can argue all day about this.

Perhaps best is simply to roll for weapons status of the freighter. Sometimes it will be alert and those expensive fighters actually useful, sometimes asleep at the wheel and those fighters just fast admins.

BTW: The story was amusing...

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 12:11 am: Edit

As a civillian unit, the freighter also has a 50% chance of having a poor crew which hampers both Tactical Intelligence and fighter operation.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 04:15 am: Edit

"You're not really playing fair... You're running at S levels of TacIntel" YES and I TOLD you when I get to call for help is when you do something I can identify as hostile. LOOK at the S1-5 and A-B intel ranges for Pfs given above and THEN tell me what range I should be able to get to get help 6 +(random chance roll) turns later. To be honest, I am unsure I can hold you off for 6 turns before capture. You can then sublight evade the freighter with cargo and the LR leads the POLICE on a merry goose chase

"...does the six turns plus die roll effects assume a..." Well, I don't think that the amount of time a Police/Fleet response could arrive in would vary depending on the target or raider. They gets there as soon as they can.

"If I drag the freighter off the map does it count as a capture?" sure these darn things are sellable and despite all the prejudice, Klingons want to live to fight another day... Be careful not to death drag them. I am sure any boarding parties I wound and capture will have a bounty on their heads too, for interrogation and criminal prosecution. What do you think is fair?

"all the time with fire control on..." Well more likely is LPFC, raised to FULL active FC on btty power as soon as a contact is made. The course change would only be maybe 30degrees off skew and for just a few minutes to see if the others correct to maintain an intercept course.

EVERYONE, several things to consider: 1) I have a pf tac intel capability (not too good without a PFscout) 2) MJC has to be IDENTIFIED as hostile (and he would almost certainly have a decent liar in his crew to respond to my initial hail of his ship) 3) I think that MJC can get to about range 25 or 30 ( I don't have the numbers memorized) before MJC will overhear initial my call for help (like in the Lyran/Kzinti CL story with the dead Lyran prince). The main reason? MJC has a +2 stealth modifier so my tac intel will not be performing at optimum In effet he will gain a tac intel range bracket. Of course, I am assumuming MJC doesn't burn all his engines by doubling before getting to tactical range. Engine doubling would definately appear hostile on my sensors...

OK, so on with the show:

MJC is 30 hexes behind, speed max, the Weary Donkey when he hears the distress call go out... Several replies come from various diretions (no idea if these are police responding, other merchants turning away, another pirate coming to feed on a chummed target zone, small mining/agri/science stations with auto responders on their comms or what)

Aboard the Love Ewe "AAAAAAARG, after them like hoop snakes chasing a pomme!" cried Digger. He had been hoping they would have blundered into passing close to his ambush/monitoring location (chosen to overwatch several shipping lane channels so he could surprise them like a 'drop bear' on a joey, but alas, such was not to be...

"Captain," the sultry Orion surfer girl at the comm panel purred "I am intercepting a distress call from the Target. Decoding, appears to be a standard merchant algorhythm... oooooh, ID confirmed as the Weary Donkey, they are asking for help and report they have a National Guard defense team aboard." She smiled toothily in an evil grin. "Spicy." Then tugging her sarong tighter, she started to analize the sensor data on the fleeing ship.

Aboard the Weary Donkey. "Alert, Captain to the bridge. We have an Orion hull type closing at high speed on an aft pursuit vector." Moments later old Captain Krunch entered the bridge. Retired from the ISF after 30 years, he knew his role in this battle and was NOT pleased at the odds.

"Report," the canny old space dog called and from the various ship operation stations came the responses. "All stations report closed up to battle stations, sheilds at full, max speed attained, cycling warp power thru the batteries. Phasers charged. The defense crew reports they are readying fighters 2 and 3 at this time. Fighter 1 is ready to launch. Plan 1 Alpha complete. Burro crew reports ready at Alpha 2 status now. Working on Alpha 3" Then the scanner officer "The Pirates are at range 30 aft, speed 31, not doubling anything yet, fire control up, sheilds up." The tactical plot showed the story, the Orions were gaining 14 hexes a turn on the fleeing Weary Donkey.

"Poo," the mild curse slipped from the captains mouth, "this is going to really suck the profit right out of this voyage."

Down in the defense pods, the warriors of M'rafton's crew appeared steady, for all their (hidden) nervousness. They were highly trained, but not experienced in war. As M'rafton's father and grandfather had stressed, "When you can't BE fearless, pretend to be so. Sometimes the appearance is equal to the task." So, carefully controlling his voice to be steady and level, M'rafton looked at his monitors and keyed the mic to the fighters. "M'appy, just do what we planned, nothing fancy, and save the heroics. I'll need those fighters for the next battle." a pause and then "Plus, you still owe me 15 credits from that last Klin'Zha game."

Laughs from the pilots sitting in their fighters (especially vulnerable crammed into ready racks full of fuel lines, active superconductor conduits, armed explosive bolts, high capacity capacitors full to almost failing, and live drones with the safety flags pulled) indicated the gesture worked. THIS flight would be thinking about something besides possible death or mutilation for a couple of minutes

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 04:29 am: Edit

MJC, I have decided my initial attack plan, what are YOU doing?

Your photon status (note, you CANNOT close at max speed while ARMING a photon). You were closing at MAX speed (hence using all the warp you can generate), but have completed the first turn of arming because of the special abilities of Oessica Jorsini your fairly legendary weapons engineering Sergeant.

DO you have any drones already out? (the WS rules allow you to launch them on turn 0 iirc)

Now that you are close enough, did you ACTUALLY take a LR? Your sensor oficer says I DID take a Large freighter (the unarmed type) with 2 skids, plus 2 25 box pods. As far as you can tell, it is NOT a Q-ship and everything about it is congruent with your spy reports.

Is there anything else I need to know to write up turn 1? The above was turn zero. As you can see The skid defense team had 1 fighter ready and are working on the others. The Weary Donkey crew is doing something to their admin (Burro). Plus secret stuff (grin).

OF COURSE, you have to pretend you only know what the pirate knows