Mike?

It would help if you could post a tactical update each turn, so that the starting (and as the turns happen, the current) situation is defined.

It appears that MJC is approaching from the RA (#4 shield arc) of the freighter... if he starts turn Zero at range 30 from the target (errr... weary donkey) and the targ... errr Donkey moves away at max speed (say 12 or 13 hexes) then the best MJC can get to minimum range would seem to be 17 or 18 hexes away.

Such a range is not optimum for many weapons... and gains you a fair chance of survival through the first 32 impulses.

If you were to continue to "Haul *$$" then he might not be able to reach range Zero until the end of turn 2 (depending on his tactical choices).

In any event, It would be helpful to those of us observing the match if you could spell out every now and then hex numbers. facings and other SFB terms.

Thank you!

Jeff Wile.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Jeff wrote: "...Such a range is not optimum for many weapons... and gains you a fair chance of survival through the first 32 impulses..."

EXACTLY. The entire thing that I am going to be working for is survival. I mean, I am in a freighter with 4 zorans as my escort. Would you want to rush the engagement knowing you have reinforcemetns coming, sooner or later? Reinforcemetns are roooed for every turn starting turn 6, I have to roll a 1 on a d6.

Oh yeah. I have avoided hex numbers before, because we have been doing this as a thought experiment. And as a way for me to vent my twisted and hyperactve mind writing fiction. Between semesters and jobs right now.

As soon as I have some kind of idea of where we are going to engage, I will assign hex numbers.

No sense in assigning me 2215 and then finding I run for 40 more hexes before we actually start shooting or maneuvering tactically...

MJC has most of the control of tempo here, so I want to disrupt his timing and drag things out... At worst, I want to engage in a manner that lets me be less disadvantaged.

Note that MJC has a Photon and Phaser 1's. I have Phaser 2's and a phaser 3.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Update...

MJC and I are at EA, starting turn 1. Last turn we were both at max speed. I have just called for help, so the clock for my savior arriving is now ticking. I am in a Large Freighter (max speed 17), and MJC is in a LR (max speed 31). So far, MJC has intercepted and broken my message calling for help, so he KNOWS that this is the ship he is looking for (full of fruitcake) AND this ship has 2 "defense skids."

MJC is on my #4 shield center lined, exactly 30 hexes away. Note that MJC has a photon in his nose mount and thus he has to slow to arm the darn thing.

MJC has EXCELLENT elint capabilities (Oessica Jorsini is his fairly legendary weapons/ engineering/ comms/ scanner Sergeant) and knows that I have fully charged weapons and am still putting drones on fighters due to rf bandwith leakage in my ship intercomms.

The ADVANTAGES I have include:

1) All I have to do is hold out until help arrives. I do not have to win this battle, just not lose.
2) MJC has to worry about my rescuer arriving 30 hexes away EVERY turn starting turn 6, so he better make sure he can still disengage. Ie, better not weasel, emerdecell, go speed dead slow, get too crippled to disengage by accel on later turns...
3) MJC doesn’t REALLY know what my skids have in them. They are KNOWN to be defense specialty skids manned by military crews, so when MJC get to the correct tac intel level, he will get some more info.
4) I get to name the ships. Hence “Love Ewe,” “Weary Donkey,” “Cranky Burro.”
5) Plus I have some ISF ships coming eventually to my rescue, “Castrator” the F5I, and the E4J “Soprano.” Try not to get captured Mike. Really. And don’t trust any Slidarians that want to be your “special friend” in jail…

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 08:37 pm: Edit

One final thing:

I have recieved several emails saying that if I use tac intel, I should have known a pirate was chasing me and run/ called for help sooner.

I have to get level B information to positively id him as an orion hull type. I got a special bonus in that MJC was chasing me from astern, maximizing my time to evaluate/ react before things went tactical.

Movement cost, etc was not really enough to tell. Plus he was chasing me at MAX WARP! so I am giving him credit for going warp 7, which is equal to speed 343! This takes him from range 300 (My assuemd max Strategic intel range at pf sensitivity) so to range 30 (tactical) in ONE TURN or so.

The only reason he can't zip up to me (to range 1) at that speed is that SVC/SPP wrote a while back (maybe 2 years ago) that in high warp a couple of phaser 3 could cripple a cruiser. I have always assumed that meant that a ship in high warp takes tenfold damage.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 11:47 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

"...does the six turns plus die roll effects assume a..." Well, I don't think that the amount of time a Police/Fleet response could arrive in would vary depending on the target or raider. They gets there as soon as they can.

---

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 02:28 am: Edit

MJC: At WS-II you haven't paid for the last turns arming of the photon, so will have to spend 2 warp there unless you eject it.

You probably don't need full shields the first turn though, he won't penetrate minimum shields. If you do need 'em raise them from batts. One could argue if you need AFC too...

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 02:56 am: Edit

With the limted weapon suite, I would use LPFC which would cover photon and 1 phaser and both drones. (Upgrade to full AFC to handle scatterpack, remaining phasers or ADD). I would also use minimum shields until reaching range 8. When the damage of a freighter with skids, phaser armed freighter, or Q-ship (off center-line aft) very rarely exceeds 6, more shields would be wasteful.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Mike, What Year is this happening in? are drones Fast, med or slow?

Have you done the drone load out yet? (or keeping it secret as a tactical surprise for MJC?!?)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

I am not sure from what little I have read, but I think you have both blown it.

You are, as I understand it, a freighter. Freighters gather tac intel on the MRS/PF/EWF line of the chart (D17.125).

Michel John Campbell, the notorious pirate, is flying an LR. LRs are not restricted as to their tactical intelligence gathering, i.e., they gather as a normal ship.

This means that he sees you, flatly, at twice the range you see him.

Further, being an Orion stealth design, Michael John Campbell's ship will have a plus one (sorry, but freighters do NOT run around with ECCM up on the basis that they MIGHT see something). And being a nimble ship at long range, he gains another four ECM, for a total of six points, i.e., a shift of two when you look at him.

In addition, a case can be made that a freighter might only be running Low Powered Fire Control, but we will ignore that.

The upshot is that Michael John Campbell SHOULD have detected you under conditions in which you would not detect him at all (he can see you at twice the range you can see a normal ship, and he has stealth and small target modifiers to move it up two more levels). This is WITHOUT USING ECM ON HIS PART, or ECCM.

Basically, without ECCM you will not have level A information on him until he is within 20 hexes (normal Level C information).

Once he has spotted you, he should have trailed you for a while to look the situation over, but still be outside of your scanner range. During this he would plot his attack, and since he knows where you are, but you cannot see him, he can maneuver to get ahead of you if he wished. Then warm up the phaser capacitors.

When he turned in to approach you, he should have slowed up and dumped three points of power into ECM (three generated, plus two stealth, plus four Nimble/Small Target gives nine ECM) to make the shift three. This would have left him nine points of power. If the photon is loaded and held as a standard prior to this point, that will be another point of power. Housekeeping will be another 2 points (he cannot afford passive or low powered fire control because he cannot afford to be taken by surprise by the unexpected while making his approach, but he can afford to go to minimal shields during the approach). We will assume no special shuttles (at least none that require power). So we have spent 6 points of the 12 points of power available without burning the batteries or doubling the engines when we begin our approach, leaving us 6 points, or a speed of 18 for the approach (speed 15 if he was holding a full overload).

The freighter is probably poking along (assuming a large freighter) at speed 5 or so (economical for its engines).

At that point, you get into "esoterics".

The Dread Pirate Campbell would probably be operating in an area of space that he 'knows', so could take advantage of 'background' radiation and etc. to further mask his approach. He might also use any of a number of old ruses, like calling the freighter and announcing that he is a local police ship coming in for a health and welfare inspection. Or that he is a military freighter in need of supplies, or any of a number of other ruses to try to lull the freighter. He might even have acquired various codes that might help lull the freighter. He may even have your cargo manifest and be targeting you specifically (corruption in the shipping office of the last planet you visited).

The freighter might suspect piracy, but it is obvious from the game background that the average freighter crew will never be pirated. (There are many more freighters than there are pirates, and the vast majority of cargoes reach their destinations unmolested, or there would literally be no such thing as single freighters traveling in space, all commmerce would be in convoys with escorts. Pirate attacks have to be an exception, rather the rule of space commerce.)

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 06:55 pm: Edit

I am in a freighter. Year Y175. All MY drones are 1F, my fighters plain ole zorans. MJC indicated he probably would load all type 1 on the racks, with some 1/2 armored type ones to keep me guessing. He has gracks, so he has free add reloads and I assume all possible refits. He indicated he would NOT load his adds onto the racks until he sees fighters or drones, and maybe not even then.

I still don't kknow if he has a cloak, oakdisc or what.

I know MJC will ID my fighters as soon as they launch, hence why they are still aboard. PLUS they are darn slow.

I KNOW I am going to get hammered, the question in my mind is can I make it hard for him to hang around and dismember/capture my ship with just a flight of zorans and a self defense skid (with it's crew).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

Fast Drones not available in Y175, and not likely to be available to a civilian ship in the early Y180s either.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 07:14 pm: Edit

SPP wrote (condensed):

”You area freighter… gather tac intel on the MRS/PF/EWF line of the chart (D17.125).
MJC, is flying an LR..not restricted in tactical intel, thus he sees you at twice the range you see him. “
** Agreed, The back story I thought explained this, thus that’s why MJC got to range 30, closing at hight warp before I called for help.

… being an Orion stealth … a plus one.. And being a nimble ship at long range, plus four ECM, for a total of six points, i.e., a shift of two.
** We discussed the stealth part, but I missed (though in retrospect MJC probably saw it, I mdid not get his “hint”) the nimble bit.

…Low Powered Fire Control…
**we discussed that

MJCl SHOULD have detected you… you would not detect him at all
** Agreed. This is discussed in the back story. MJC indicated he wanted to come in from astern. The freighter is reacting to S level data because it is SPECIFCALLY worried about possible piracy on THIS PARTICULAR SHIPMENT. 1) the last one was hijacked 2) MJC doesn’t know it, but the locals suspect there is a leak in the parties to this cargo (someone working for the respective import or export ministry offices, a port shipping clerk, longshoreman, something) 3) So they were willing to spend some money to get a couple of “self defense skids” in this case carrying 2 zorans each plus a minimal additional capability about = to a lash skid, because they couldn’t convince the ISF or DSF to escort them.

THUS this merchant is reacting to S level tac intel by making off axis turns when they see other ships ON AN INTERCEPTION course. MJC mirrored those turns and kept chasing me, to I panicked and went to max accel. He did the same, and with his massive speed advantage (assumed warp 7 max = speed 343) went from the MAX range I could detect him at all to range 30 in less than 1 turn (thus I don’t have all my zorans loaded, the admin is not prepared fully for a special mission). Note that this all occurred on turn zero and that is what all the action up to now shows…

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 07:23 pm: Edit

SPP:

OOPS, OK, so all my drones are 1M, and MJC will have to rechoose.

This is both a good and bad thing for me.
1) I can now ALMOST stay with my drones if I want
2) MJC can now juke them pretty easily given his speed advantage.
3) My Zorans should do much better vs medium speed drones (phaser, turn/het, tail gun OR reverse).

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 07:28 pm: Edit

I am running at max speed (17) directly away from you all turn. Impulse 32 after movement, we are at range 13. Do you have any action besides moving before fire decision step of impule 32?

Unless there is something SPECIFICALLY I need to do to REACT to you before impulse 32, I am ready to proceed to impulse 32 and call for fire.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Oh yeah, are you doubling anything?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 07:56 pm: Edit

This of course is one of the other problems that has to be decided before the story begins.

The freighter, obviously, wants the point where it spots the Orion to be Just before Energy Allocation.

The Orion, obviously, having the advantage of longer range to see his quarry, wants the scenario to begin AFTER an Energy Allocation in which the Freighter will have to go through Turn #1 with an energy plot that heavily restricts him, i.e., on Turn #1 the freighter cannot accelerate (the freighter has a battery, yes, but that battery is NOT going to be cycling warp power out of combat). The Freighter might use its one point of battery to warm its phasers, but will not be able to energize them until the next turn, and diverting the power to do that then might help the Orion.

You seem to have started on the former, an advantage to the freighter, rather than the latter. And as noted, the freighter SHOULD have been moving far less than its maximum speed at first, as noted, maybe about speed five, might have been a little higher, probably not lower, and given freighter acceleration limits (no more than four each turn), it would take it several turns to work up to speed 17.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 12:06 am: Edit

DC:

SG4.0 is the basis of what I'm saying and it is WS-III ( serves me right for not double checking the rule book, or maybe I just forgot that third keep stroke )..so let just pretend everthing stands as is.


J.W.:

Drone loads for my two G-racks would be three type IM ( the year being earlier than I expected ( too much X2ing ) and a type IM with half a space of armor ( I won't go to the extra expense of IFs if this is just a milk run and they arn;t of general availibility ), with the last reload being entirely ADDs.


SPP:

Could you take over the control of my Priate vessel for me to prove this particularl points ( that four fighters arn't enough to slow down a pirate vessel enough to be worth having on the freighter ) as I'm always asleep when most of the posts are being posted and it'll speed things up if little questions are being answered in close to real times.

Also note that I am trying to "blow it" in that I am treating this as SOP priating until such time as the freighter surprises me.
I'm attacking from the rear to do about 18 point of internal damage before ( yeah, it'll be on the second attack run on a large freighter if firing from R4 ) I get into the FA just incase he's a Disruptor armed Freighter and hits me with a pair of disruptors.


MCG:

No I'm not doubling anything. Orion Engine Doubling on an LR is not a wise idea and besides which engine doubling for cracking warships not mauling freighters and I'ld rather keep my stealth bonus.


Now here's a question for SSP and SVC, do Orions Pirates use their warp engine doubling at strategic speeds to "high-tail it" away for the fleet that's going to stomp on them?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 12:17 am: Edit

If no one else wants to jump in.
Okay, Impulse 32 of turn 1 it is.

I call no fire.

I'ld loved to have droned off but with you moving speed 17 and the drones moving at 20 I'll keep `em inthe rack for a while.

We scroll the map to put me in 0101C and you in 0910C.

Did you fire anything or shall we move to EA?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 08:30 am: Edit

I do not fireanything, because 1) I misjudged the darn closure (I wanted to be at 15 and hit you with phaser 2s, and 2) Your ecm advantage makes any real hits unlikely...

On to EA.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 08:58 am: Edit

So, my current status before EA
1) Zoran 2 and 3 have had 2 deck crew s working on them for all last turn, so they are now fully loaded (another reason I fled instead of turning in). Both crews that WERE working on Zoran 3 are now on Zoran 4, One of the crews that were working on Zoran 2 is idle with nothing left to do.
2) The freighter deck crew is still working (the rules allow 2 "intrinsic" deck crews if no special rule says otherwise, but I mean really, on a freighter? I am assuming the freighter has 1 deck crew.) 1 of the deck crews (from the fighter 1 & 2 bay has moved (at the end of the turn) to assist the freighter guys in their bay.

I antcipate launching Zoran 1,2 and 3 as fast as allowed (2 on impule 1 and 1 on impulse 2?). The scatterpack is not really ready yet. Zoran 2 will be completely ready at the end of the turn (or impule 16 with 1 drone).

The freighter is going to turn and slip at maximum rate to stay near the fighters.

Several issues I will ask SPP directly.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 09:13 am: Edit

Oh yeah, the "idle" deck crew is reloading the ready rack for Zoran #1.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:35 am: Edit

Funny that fighter #1 was already loaded even though I was not detected until turn #1.
Also funny that you have more than 2 deck crews.

BTW, I bought a T-bomb to balance out your deck crews.


Just out of curriosity ( don't have module J handy ) what are the stats of the "Zorans"? If they have type IM drones then I doubt they're both (2&3) loaded as they'll take an entire deck crew turn action each and few fighters load one type IM drone. a Pair of IVMs will take an entire deck crew action.

The scatter pack will take a deck crew action per type IM and I'm not sure you can load an SP from ready racks...particularly since those ready racks were used to load the fighter.


Is that it, by the way, is the whole idea of mounting fighters in skids just so you can load up an SP???

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 11:04 am: Edit

On to my EA.

I'm still hold the Photon for 1.
I pay house keeping ( 2.5 ) and recharge my BTTYs ( 1.5 ) which leaves 7 for movement.
I move speed 24 during the first half of the turn and speed 18 for the second half.

I side-slip to oblique you from the rear at R4.
Sideslipping to keep up with any extra sideslips you might perform.


Now the questions are, do you drop the fighters before I get to R4 or after AND do I you slow down enough to actually let me got to R4?

I guess this is an important question.
You announced you were going at speed 17 but you never actually outlined your EA so I wouldn't mind seeing it.
It is a bit unfair that I give you my EA details and you keep your cards very close to your chest.


I Mean speed 17, shields, L.S. LPFC and that is every watt, anything else has to come from BTTYs.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 11:23 am: Edit

I have a horrible feeling about this; specifically that MCG will keep up speed 17 for so long dumping the fighters around the time I fire and I will go so slowly holding the photon, that the large freighter won't be saved by the fighters ( which after I side-step will be long behind our increadibly fast ships ) but rather by the fact that a large freighter can go at speed 17 thanks to not having to engage in station keeping with small freighters who max out at 13 (IIRC).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 11:54 am: Edit

Michael John Campbell:

Sorry, but no, I cannot take over your Orion.

Basically, at 20 hexes range you ought not to be worrying much. At 20 hexes you get level E information, which tells you that (assuming this is a large freighter) it has eight warp engine boxes operating. Which means it is either a freighter, or a Q-ship.

If it is an Imperial Q-ship, that means that it has two disruptors, two drone racks, and five phaser-2s.

He has stated that he is running at speed 17. (I am still unsure how he got to that speed so quickly . . . and it is something that makes me, were I an Orion, suspicious. Freighters do not normally travel anywhere near their full speed, and with a maximum acceleration of four hexes a turn according to the SSD, it should have taken it two or three turns from the point it spotted you to work up to speed 17. Three turns if it spotted you AFTER an Energy Allocation had been done and you were doing your job right, two turns if it spotted you BEFORE an Energy Allocation. This is also why you approach from the front, you need to get close as soon as possible, and be ready to break away.) If he is at speed 17, and is a normal freighter, with fire control operating in low powered mode, then all he has left is the battery. (Speed 16 takes all eight of the warp engine boxes you can detect at range 20, speed 17 takes one of the impulse engines, shields are up at full which takes another point of power, assume the second impulse engine, which leaves the APR to power life support and low powered fire control.) If he is a Q-ship, that leaves him nine APRs. It means that if he is going for an overloaded shot backed by his phasers at that speed, it means that eight of the APRs are arming the two disruptors as overloads, and a half point from the remaining APR is waiting to bring the fire control to full. Probably going to dump the batteries for ECCM to counter the Stealth. At range two on the centerline his maximum damage out put is 36 points, painful, but not crippling (assuming your LR has the plus refit). At that point, you call it a bad day and get the heck out of dodge, running out his drones or shooting them down. Expect type-IVs, so if you kill one, and get hit by one (on a new shield), it will only be four more internals. You should easily be able to out run the Q-ship, even with that damage, and by approaching from the front, he will lose even more distance trying to turn to chase you.

If he is not a Q-ship, then at range two you blast his shield down (hoping that the photon does hit . . . embarrassing to get to range two and have the photon miss . . . but it happens), and send in the boarding parties. (But not if it is a Petrick Shipping Consortium freighter, if it is, a PSC ship, give it up as you are not going to loot it at all with a mere Light Raider.)

The above is, of course, one plan of action. Note that if you are fighting Q-ship captains on a regular basis, they will eventually kill you. In a campaign, an Orion that closes to range two a lot is going to run afoul of a Q-ship captain who will not arm his disruptors, but will have a tractor beam ready to grab you at range two.

But for now, the upshot is that if Michael Grafton's freighter is running at speed 17, and has full fire control and shields, then you already know that "Something is wrong here". But it could just be a pair of LASH skids or a pair of General Skids, or one of each (both add one APR).

The upshot of that is that at range 14 you want to count his phasers (both the LASH and General add a phaser-2). Then resolve discrepancies.

A freighter is NOT going to have its weapons hidden behind concealment panels (he does not want to lure pirates into close engagements). He MIGHT have Dummy Weapons.

If he is moving speed 17 with full fire control, then the odds are that if you see more than two phasers (a phaser-2 and a phaser-3), that he has skids.

This gets back to another reason to approach from the front.

A NORMAL large freighter has just two phaser, and a hit from the front that scores a phaser damage point will take out the 360 degree phaser-2. So you need to do 10 points of damage to down the shield (nine box shield plus one point of battery), and enough added internals to hopefully disable the phaser, usually about 12 internals will do it. This enables you to safely drop a shield and beam over boarding parties to seize the ship.

Coming from the rear, your damage also has to take out that pesky phaser-3.

With LASH or General Skids, things are a whole lot harder (even if there were no fighters), as by themselves they make taking the ship costly in terms of time (takes more time to blow the phasers off so that you can lower your own shields to beam over boarding parties).

In any case, the SOLUTION that the "Petrick Shipping Consortium" always used to stand off Orions was to note that since Freighters are "Ships", and thus have access to "Commander's Option Points", even if there is no access to T-bombs, and to buy "guards". A small freighter with (BPV of 12 multiplied by 20% gives 2.4 points for Commander's Options, which gets you) four boarding parties aboard is difficult for an Orion Light Raider to capture (I did have a couple that were successfully boarded by Light Raiders). Even a CR will have some trouble taking such a small freighter. Large freighters of the Petrick Shipping Consortium generally had seven boarding parties aboard (18 multiplied by 20% gives 3.6 Commander's Option points), and I NEVER had one looted by a mere Light Raider. (I had quite a few freighters shot up, but Orions are generally there to loot the freighter, not destroy it.)