IIRC, when you buy a casual fighter, it comes with a ready rack and 1/2 a deck crew.

Scatter Packs aren't loaded from ready rack drones, but rather general storage drones (if any).

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick: Sorry to break into the middle of your thread here, but I just wanted to get back to the basic question here: "Is it worth it to replace Admin with Fighter, in the skids and ducktails of a freighter, to use in defending against raiders?"

I mean, obviously doing this will give you more firepower, which is always useful in a fight. That said, for the "single F-L versus single LR" scenario, it seems to be just as effective to buy extra BP, because the pirate doesn't want to blow the ship up; he wants to capture it, and extra BP will make that difficult (or impossible.)

The next question is, "what about a single F-L versus a raiding frigate?" You have a different question now, because the frigate can just stand back and blow your freighter to bits. Would the pair of fighters make much a difference to that outcome? (Or is the proposed scenario so unbalanced that it needs to be re-written with multiple freighters?)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 12:12 pm: Edit

I'm not sure, if I'm playing correctly by not asking a third party umpire to take emails as I have a hunch the turn I double a warp engine and jam 5 power into tractors will be the turn he announces that he was planning on dropping to speed 0 and dumping all the power gained into negative tractor.


As to attacking from the rear, yeah...but MCG was quite insistant that he would turn and run from anything detected on a strategic level.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 12:28 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

"Is it worth it to replace Admin with Fighter, in the skids and ducktails of a freighter, to use in defending against raiders?"

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Quote:

I mean, obviously doing this will give you more firepower, which is always useful in a fight. That said, for the "single F-L versus single LR" scenario, it seems to be just as effective to buy extra BP, because the pirate doesn't want to blow the ship up; he wants to capture it, and extra BP will make that difficult (or impossible.)

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By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 12:54 pm: Edit

The thing is that a large freighter with "guards" is only going to be taken by a Light Raider doing very "laborious" things.

That being to fire at the freighter until you have destroyed its weapons and power systems. Then dock to it and board through the docking port.

Basically, Michael Grafton is making assumptions about how close "help" will be to his freighter. And it is not quite what he imagines. If help was always as close as he assumes, then there would be no pirates. Scenarios simply reflect those times when help was that close, or when the freighter had a very good reason to resist.

Piracy in SFB is basically going to work in several ways. A Light Raider can basically approach a large freighter where there is no "help" nearby, and threaten to destroy it unless it heaves to. This is why a lot of Light Raider captains PREFER THE THREE PLASMA-F OPTION. At worst, in seven turns the large freighter will be utterly destroyed (four turns if he does not use a wild weasel against the first salvo of plasma). If the freighter heaves to, the crew gets to live, the Light Raider takes only 3% of the total cargo volume of the Large Freighter. And it will not always be the "best 3%" as the freighter crew can try to conceal the best, and will sometimes succeed. But the freighter is not damaged, nobody dies, and you still have 97% of the total cargo volume.

Yeah, it is extortion, but fighting the LR with the three plasma-F package can get you real dead real fast.

The Orions do not really have an interest in destroying a lot of freighters and killing their crews as this WILL get the Fleet to take a much more active interest in hunting down that particular Orion. And the Orions have an interest in the Freighters staying in business (if the Freghters are not moving, the Orions are not getting any cash either, so while they pillage, they have to keep the economics of the situation in mind also).

An Orion Light Raider captain that is a little too vicious is going to find the local Cartel sending its "Enforcer" to remind him of the rules, or perhaps advising local law enforcement as to exactly where he can be found.

There is also general extortion of the shipping lines. "The Protection Racket" if you will. A "factor" approaches a shipping company and simply notes that if "insurance" is not acquired, bad things can happen to the company's ships. Infiltration of the shipping offices (corrupt officials that take bribes, or perhaps an otherwise honest man who has succumbed to coercion, i.e., a kidnapped wife or etc.) provides "sailing and cargo information" into the local Cartel's business office which in turn generates orders to Cartel ships on where to be. Remember, the Orions have "front companies" and run their own merchant shipping, which gives them even more access to information on other cargoes and freighter movements.

It is a wonderful universe, is it not?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Yes, spendiferous.


MCG has unfortunately made it clear that I must get more cargo from this particular encounter than my cargo boxes can hold so I'm caught between banging up the freighter bad enough to "have my way with it" through it having reduced speed & reduced negative tractor and having it keep enough warp engine boxes to out run the fighters once it is captured.


Just on a technical question.
If a tractored vessel can't launch shuttles, can I still crash land shuttles aboard the freighter if I'm holdiong it in a tractor?

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:19 pm: Edit

MJC: I suggest a brief read of (G15.213). As a SC4 Orion you can double EVERYTHING (including the impulse) and lose only one box TOTAL. If you were a SC3 Orion, you would lose one box from each engine.

So there is no point doubling just one engine on an LR - you may as well double everything or nothing.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Sounds like a "Catch 22" scenario.

If MJC's quote "MCG has unfortunately made it clear that I must get more cargo from this particular encounter than my cargo boxes can hold" is accurate, then the Orion must capture the freighter to win.

But in order to capture the freighter, the orion has to get close enough to board it, and reinforce the boarding parties heavily while avoiding the Zoran's phaser and drone fire... and compete the process before the fleet arrives (well, maybe just the local police ship).

This should be a good show to watch... I can hardly wait to find out how MJC is going to accomplish the mission.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 04:56 am: Edit

Me too.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 07:38 am: Edit

The Zorans are speed 6 without an EW pod, P2 nose and P3 tail, 2 type 1 oor 6 drones.

Fighter 1 is the CAP, held ready for launch.

The deck crews you see are part of the skid crew.
One turn 1, the 2 dek crews in Bay1/2 loaded drones on fighter 2, the 2 deck crews in Bay3/4 loaded fighter 3. BTW, I feel that a fgreighter should have only 1 deck crew and so that's all the FREIGHTER crew has. The skids are accounted for seperately.

EA I have 8 warp, 3 apr and 2 Imp, 3 batteries.
12 speed costs 6 warp, housekeeping costs 2 1/2 from batteries, phasers held for 0, 3 warp to battery, 1/2 battery to unraised general reinforcement, 1 1/2 apr to unraised general reinf, 1/2 contingent to tractor and 2 impulse to reinforce sheild 6. (I think that sall power accounter for).

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 07:48 am: Edit

Well, I am NOT going to abandon the fighters to die right off thebat. I will conceded that I set MJCs victory conditions a tad high. I didn't know I had the option of just forking over 1 1/2 boxes of cargo, I am assuming MJC wants the entire cargo and the freighter too.

REMEMBER, this is NOT A REGULAR skid being used for something else, it is a DEFENSE skid, so it is geared towards that mission.

My plan, turn and slip as fast a possibel and go head to head with MJC for hte first pass. Zorans get launched 2 on impulse 1 and 1 on impluse 3. The Scatterpack isn't ready and neither is fighter #4.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 08:30 am: Edit

Aboard the Love Ewe, Sergeant Jorsini looked up from her console, the dim red battle lighting on the bridge making her green skin appear dull and grey. “Captain, scans of the Weary Donkey confirms that the defense skids are Klingon type 6. They each hold 2 shuttles, a medium phaser, a reactor and battery, plus a small cargo space for combat stores. My data shows that typically there are several reloads per fighter, a few defense khads and a deck crew for each fighter. Past encounters usually did NOT include mines.

Digger looked at the tactical screen. “Crikey, they got razor sharp teeth do they?” Then he keyed his shipwide caller. “Attention, we are going to make oblique passes to crack their shields and wipe out their weapons. Be ready to encounter additional defensive Klingons, Sgt Irwin…”

Aboard the Weary Donkey, fighters 1 and 3 were launched, and then after the lock cycled they were followed by fighter 2. Fighter 4 was still being loaded. “Captain Krunch looked at his status displays. He knew that by now the Orions would have detected his skids and were preparing to close take his ship. He had 4 obsolete fighters and 3 medium phasers to fight a LR with 3 superior offensive phasers and 3 unknown weapons. “This is going to hurt.” He murmured to himself.

for an amusing, but slightly offensive look at Steve "crocidile hunter" Irwin http://joecartoon.atomfilms.com/pages/goanna/
btw, I am trying to use as many goofy Oz references as possible... Note that I LOVE rural and small town Australia and vacation there every chance I get.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 08:59 am: Edit

Basically, I want to orbit the Zorans and use some turns to spread out your hits to several shields. The drones can 1) drive you away (GOOD FOR ME) 2) make you use phasers to deal with them (I don't know about the g racks yet, still good for me) or 3) hit you for follow up wiht my phaser 2s (good for me) or 4) you just juke them and leave then puttering in your dust (bad).

NOTE that I have to be ready to deal with your stealth with eccm either allocated or btty. This first turn I plan to use btty if you look to come inside range 8 or my drones are going to hit. Zorans plus freighter p2s in 1 big blast on 1 sheild can penetrate at range 8 if I am lucky.

Part 2 of my plan is I am keeping my speed up, so if you slow down too much I can recover my fighters and move "over younder" to delay for time. I'd like to be able to go speed 13, so as to preserve my option to accel to my max speed 17 and make you work to get to me while help is enroute. but I am forced to trade speed 12 TM 3 for speed 13 TM4 just to have any pretense of maneuvering vs you. Yuo get to move last too. Darn it.

I THOUGHT we ended turn 1 at range 17 (started turn 1 at range 30, you closed at 30, I fled at 17), but you should have considerable latitude to get to a reasonable range pretty easily, so lets go with your "We scroll the map to put me in 0101C and you in 0910C".

I will turn to facing 0911D as my first move, slip away for my second to 0912D for my second. Assuming you haven't turned. You come in and slip where? I presume you are preserving your ability to turn at will as long as possible.

Zoran 1 and 3 speed 0 in hex 0910F and Zoran 2 at speed 5 in 0911F. When all 3 Zorans are together they will accelerate to their combat speed and keep together. (I don't know you have a tbomb). I will launch 3 drones on impulse 11 at you (you assume they are at you, heh) unless you give me another target or are maneuvering strangely...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 09:10 am: Edit

I don't think there should be an SP.

Atleast I don't think it should be as easy to build as it is on a warship.

You see, you're changing your statments to suit your situation. That is first you say that the skids are a simple attachment that only take a few hours to attach, then you start having things added in like; deck crews, ready racks and now the ability to launch SPs...I can't wait for the freighter to bloom up to a drone control rating of 6!

If there is to be an SP I would argue that the drones must be taken from the ready rack ( and I don't think there should be a reload for the ready rack as this is not supossed to be full carrier abilities) and then taken to the cargo hold ( because the passage between the skids and the cargo hold exists for carrying cargo to the admin shuttles that would otherwise be there and then be taken from the cargo hold ( the other way cargo gets to shuttles ) to the shuttle bay...and thus moving the drones around should take two deck crew actions, thus I would argue that loading SPs from having fighters on your skids would take twice as long as usual ( or be done at half the rate ).


As to my aim, I'ld gladly blow the entire freighter to smitherines to prove fighter based skids a bad idea but you seem insistant that only capturing the cargo will do.

Is that turn in on me BTW or is it turn away?
Is it turn before you sideslip or after...I'm sure it's before by what you say.


On to the battle, plan, since I see fighters #1 & #3 launched on impulse 1, I change my battle plan, as noted earlier to the destruction of the fighters before moving on the freighter.

I will now manouver to oblique the fighters at range 4 without running through the FA of the freighter.
Warn me when the fighters fire...also remember that fighters can not fire for 8 impulses after launch or launch seekers for 16 impulses (J1.34) which at my current speed and range and depending on the direction they are launched in could be important. Actually tell me the impulse when I get to R4 of the fighters as I might want to try for an R2 shot before they're drones are ready.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 09:19 am: Edit

I'ld like to direct you to J1.22 with respect to fighter accelleration.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 09:39 am: Edit

"If there is to be an SP I would argue that the drones must be taken from the ready rack... and don't think there should be a reload ... and taken to the cargo hold... to the shuttle bay...and thus moving the drones around should take two deck crew actions... I argue that loading SPs from having fighters on your skids would take twice as long as usual ( or be done at half the rate )."

Not a bad arguement, and I can see some validity to it. Alas, AFAIK, there is no delay in moving reload drones from stroage on ANY vessel to the shuttle bay for SP use. I keep on trying to emphasize that THIS IS A PURPOSE built variant of a normal civilian skid. I has reload drones. You (and several who email me) keep on insisting this is a LASH or other civ skid with a few fighters crammed into it's bays. I can see that use, but thatis NOT what I have been trying to support here from the start.

Yes, I hope my move explanation 0910C to 0911D to 0912D is correct. I am turning to MY right and slipping out so I end up leading with my #6.

It is specifically designed to support a ship in combat, with fighters/ ready racks/ deck crews and BPs. A minimal capability to be sure, but still some.

DOH, I crossed up #6 and #2 in my head, so my reinf is on the wrong sheild. Crud. I will NOT be changing my EA, I will suck it up (Kap'n Krunch is old after all...) I will be checking J1.22 as soon as I get home...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 11:43 am: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

Actually, the situation you have established is lost by the Orion before it began.

When computing your "victory conditions", you apparently forgot to take into account the amount of time required to transfer the cargo.

If the Dread Pirate Campbell were to pound your ship until it was boardable, and win the boarding action after docking to it, it would take an additional five (5) turns to transfer the cargo from your cargo pods to his cargo hold.

If you surrender, it would take him a minimum of four turns to transfer the cargo by transporter.

Note that in this latter case, it would actually take six or more turns, as he would have to send an inspection team to verify and tag the cargo to be transported to his holds, and then recover the team.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 11:47 am: Edit

Just lurking. The idea of fighter skids sounds intriguing. However, it seems some of the details are not clear, specifically:

• Does the skid include deck crews?
• Does the skid include ready racks?
• Can you transfer drones from the skid to the ship? If so, how long does this take?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 11:49 am: Edit

All right, well I think I can actually take all three fighters in one attack run beause of the 16 impulse drone launch delay of the fighters.

Assumming the fighters stay stationary in 0910, I'll show you may workinging ( we can change the movement based on any movemet the fighters might make.

0101, sideslips to 0102 then straight to 0906 which would bring us to impulse 12.
I was planning to fire at that point but the Z-1s are mongrels to kill ( 8 just to cripple )!!!
So I'll turn in on them. I'll just have to eat their phaser damage.
I get to 0909D on impulse 16. I fire 2Ph-1s at fighter #1 (0910) and my Photon at Fighter #2 ( 0911).
If I miss fighter #2 then I'll hit it up with last Ph-1 at R1 ( or R0 if it jumps range on me ).
If I hit, then I'll just turn off to heading C again, firing my last Ph-1 at one of the fighters (#1 or #2) only if there is a good chance of actually scoring a kill.
Either way I'll launch two drones ( both type IM with half a space of internmal armour at fighter #3 ).
I'll then shoot out about four hexes and turn starboard to try to maintain station with your freighter for the rest of the turn.

You can change the hex numbers to reflect the movements of the fighters.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 11:59 am: Edit

If the Dread Pirate Campbell were to pound your ship until it was boardable, and win the boarding action after docking to it, it would take an additional five (5) turns to transfer the cargo from your cargo pods to his cargo hold.
What's so wrong with boarding the freighter and disengaging by range?


Personally, I don't see the big problem with the idea, and find it amusing that "pulse phaser" Campbell wants to debunk the idea as unworkable
I don't think it's unworkable, I just think it's a poor application of limited resoarces.
Since the threat potential of an AxCVL is more than three times that of the skid mounted fighters ( thanks to ecconomies of scale with deck crews and EW lending ); the fighters would be better used for those purposses and spliting up fighters to make impromptu units is thus a wasteful use for expensive equipment.


Indeed I suspect you could hire a large armed freighter to do the run for you ( and pay a hefty short order fee ) for less money than it would cost to opperate skid based fighters, and you'ld have a better chance of getting the cargo through.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 12:17 pm: Edit

I've looked under OAKDISC and basic Orions and I still can't figure out my drone control limit, let alone that of freighter.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 12:31 pm: Edit

you know I really should have checked the rules on crippled hitters and HETting free of tractors to avoid death dragging having gotten so close and having full BTTYs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Michael John Campbell:

If the freighter knows there is help nearby, it gives it reason to fight and hold out. This in turn makes it likely that when you do capture it, it will be too badly damaged for you to disengage it.

One of the few reasons for a freighter to not "just give the pirate what he wants" is that the fleet is nearby.

Otherwise fighting the pirate will usually get you D E A D.

Giving the pirate what he wants has a good chance of making him go away and leaving you alive.

Not giving the pirate what he wants and resisting his efforts to "make a living" encourages the pirate when he does board your ship to send the crew for a "long walk through a short airlock".

Further, I (me, when I retire and get myself an MR to enjoy my twilight years) would NEVER assume that the fighters have a 16 impulse delay before they can launch drones.

I assume eight impulses.

They may be scatter (fighter) packs, after all.

Michael Grafton:

In re the readiness of your fighters . . .

I do NOT think the addition of your Skids makes the freighter a "carrier". They make it, at best, a "Casual Carrier", and per (J4.62) is ". . . not carriers within the context of the rules." As such, at Weapons Status 0 you have drones on the fighter ready racks, but none on the fighters themselves as the allowance for fighters to be already armed at that weapons status applies to "Carriers", which your ship is not.

As you are not a carrier, obviously you cannot purchase 'extra deck crews', but apparently you have four deck crews because you have four fighters. No problem there. HOWEVER, the "casual deck crews" found on all ships are subsumed into and absorbed by "real deck crews" that can service fighters. This is why carrier escorts have the deck crews on their SSDs, i.e., the deck crews specially trained to take care of fighters replace the deck crews that are normally on the ship. The ship does not have four deck crews, but only two.

Adding your skid with deck crews eliminates the casual/free deck crews. You only have the deck crews your Skids bring. So if you have four fighters, and four fighter ready racks, at this time, you can have four deck crews, and only four deck crews.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 05:45 pm: Edit

OK, well with all the mistakes I keep making, lets forget the entire thing...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton:

Uhmmm . . . I am not trying to get you to "forget the whole thing". I am only trying to get things taken into account.

Heck, you are a better 'fiction writer' than I am from what I have seen. I am just in the situation that if this was ever to become something SVC might publish (special scenario rule on the Skids in this case if he decides not to allow them as regular use, and decides to allow them for the story and the scenario).

Your background obviously envisions an area of space where piracy has been on something of an increase. And your ship is obviously running a cargo that is very important to someone. Important enough that you have gotten these assets for your skids, and apparently important enough that while fleet cannot provide an escort, they are promising that:

"Your route has been planned to pass near several patrolling ships, and we will schedule their patrols to be as near your route as possible as you make the transit."

At that point, either the Dread Pirate Campbell has an inside tip about you and your cargo, or he just dumb-lucked into one more freighter making the transit [which is correct is largely irrelevant, all that really matters is that he does not have a contract from someone (a rival company? A foreign power? A jilted lover?) to just try to out and out destroy your ship].

From that point, you need to balance your scenario within the rules set you are trying to use.

Is Campbell trying to sieze the whole freighter and escape with it? Destroy it? Transfer only as much cargo as his own holds will hold? In the latter case, you need to consider how much time he is going to need to do that in the balancing of the action, i.e., the time between when you "Call for Help" and that "help" arrives.

And then work out the rules that affect what you want to do with the freighter.

Steven P.