Archive through June 13, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Rules:
(J) Shuttles and Fighters:
Casual fighters in freighter skids:
Archive through June 13, 2005
Quote:The point is that means to protect a given shipment should be proportional to the value and risk of the shipment. As the convoy scenario shows, often a half dozen freighters get 1 pousy pol to protect them. So the convoy has to look tothemselves for some protection ability...
Now you see there's the rub.
You can be liscensed to carry a gun for self protection (although you can not in Oz ) but you can't carry a Styer AUG on account of the fact that it controvines the anti-machinegun act of 1928.
But can you get the US army (or National Guard...do they even use fully automatic weapons?) to use there M16s to guard you???
Well I think that depends on where you are; Iraq or Texas!...the risks involved...and the value to the US government of your work.
At a certain point (say four large freighters ) Four Phaser-2s and Four RA Ph-3s and four Admin shuttles, is enough to make an LR leave.
So your only going to be bother by truely hard opponants and at that point (say attacked by an Orion CA ), the four fighters become a mute point.
At a certain point ( like blood alcohol levels ) everybody must take some level of risk and often that level is thrust upon you by government legilastion; particularly when government monies are involved.
I think in this case the government would rather you take risk rather than they spend money due to the niche' nature of the activity.
"5o,000 cars is worth more than a freighter"
yeah, but 1 darn driver was not responsible for all 50,000 cars getting stolen/ wrecked, is he?
"But can you get the US army (or National Guard...do they even use fully automatic weapons?) to use there M16s to guard you???"
Well, I can hire guards, from goofy dudes with a flashlights and walkie talkies, to elderly retired cops with their trusty rusty .38 revolvers, to guys liscensed to carry conceled full auto weapons across state lines. And a full spectrum in between.
And, yeah the NG has M-16s, sorta like your Territorial Army has real guns. And in the USA I can buy a $200 Transfer stamp (per weapon IIRC), pass a special background investigation and LEGALLY BUY A M16, Tommy gun, UZi, silencer, ww2 MG 42 or even a 20mm Okeirlon (sp?)autocannon. I might have to pay a special liscence fee for another $200 or so, but yeah, I can carry an M16. REALLY, I swear. They even have shoots with these wackos blowing away entire cars, etc.
If I had the bucks, I would be in the middle of the firing line. Even though 20mm cannon shells gotta cost a mint... I know several people that have Ak's and SKS's
"four large freighters," well and good if I have 200 cargo boxes of stuff to move. If I have 50? Do I pay for 3 dead heading freighters as a pseudo escort? Do I have to pay for a faster ship, when all I need is more firepower? The large Armed freighter has 2x the warp, and I'd bet they cost lots more than 2x per distance travelled.
"You are so engaging in metagame-think!... So what happens when they do get to port ... and THEY say... and you failed to render any medical aid... Under International shipping law, every ship in the vacinity is legally obliged to render any and all aid to a ship in distress."
Well, I'd say,
"these guys aren't even citizens here... They are from Switz/Swede/Neutral/istan. So screw 'em. Besides I read about how the pirates often pretend to be neutrals when I took the courses leading to earning my master mariners certificate by subspace...
If they are under some mystery flag of convenience to avoid contributing taxes to our economy, well they sure learned their lesson from this incident. No Klingon would be so unprepared and stupid. Not even a Slidarian is that dense.
ANYWAY, why don't they ship their cargos in good, well trained and prepared Klingon hulls? Too good for us?
What, I'm obligated to take care of idiots? Where were they when back in Y171 when my reflux capacitance digester had a 1.5 mm, blah, blah, blah??? Did I blame them for not cleaning up my engineers mistake for me?
I can never understand the way them foreigners think, they are too stupid to bother to get recognition codes so honest merchants can verify their ID... And too self centered to understand we just don't care what happens to them. If they had trained on my ship as ensigns, they'd darn well make sure they had they were well prepared enough to... I've seen cadets...
Besides, we are NOT in international space, we are deep inside the Klingon Empire/ whatever. If I ma in the neutral zone, well more reason for me to have defense skids, a FAL, Q ship, surplus LTT/DWT whatever... You know how lawless those areas not protected and policed by an efficient milkitary dictatorship can be...
Oh, by the way...when I slowed down, I didn't leave and you never got to space port.
I was falling back to see when you'ld no longer have us under S level detection ( although I already have a fairly good idea of that ).
Then I'ld listen to you signal to local command ( oh, yeah it's scrambled but I don't mind ) and I'ld wait for them to reply. The distant between your rescuers and you can then be determined by the time difference between the scrambled signal you sent and the scrambled signal you recieved.
I now know how far your nearest rescuer is.
I also have you at S level detection. I also know how big your S level detection radius is.
I wait four 25 minutes for your phaser caps to empty.
I jam up my speed to get ahead of you without comming inside your detection radius.
I come screaming in at you from in front!
BTW the neutrals arn't too stupid to get the codes for themselves, their "nation" isn't trusted enough by your empire and so it wasn't given to them even if they had asked.
Also in Empiral Space, I'm ABSOLUTELY SURE that freighters are expected to aid freighters as dutifully as possible as this will lower the number of opperations military vessels must engage in and thus put more warships at the front!
Even if your freighter is destroyed, that is far worse than a battle being lost because one vital ship was off rescueing freighters from T.B.!
As to the question of what you think is a good way to spend money to protect your ships.
Again it's not up to you the freighter captain, it's up to your government. If they think you should just take the risk, then that's what will happen.
I can't wait for you and your attitude and those fighters to detect a large freighter that really does need your help and is not willing to steer clear of you; gets into tactical range and gets destroyed on the off chance it's an Orion Q ship.
And after the explosion, it kicks off an interstellar incident possibly even a war.
I can just see it now.
"Well good we Klingons want any excuss to gain new territories."
As a freighter captain and not the government it's not your call to make.
I think we've found an article for CL32.
CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF:- Pirate Opperations.
It would seem that the thing needed to make Piracy make real sense in SFB is to add a true "Silent Running" to (D17.0). As in - all military and civilian ships produce active scans that advertise their signiture, the latter because it is required by the empires (so they're not recognized as smugglers, etc.) and the former to assist in operational management and control and to prevent friendly fire incidents. The rules in (D17.0), especially Strategic Levels, assume this is the case. Pirates, on the other hand, don't produce this active scan and run continually in passive mode. This gives them a greatly reduced detection range, strategically, but means they aren't detected at all until Level A is reached. For this reason, Pirates tend to either purchase/obtain flight plans or sit in busy convoy routes.
The risks are too high for military vessels to use this method, though the occasional Legendary Captain is suspected to have broken this rule on occasion. The only exceptions are specific Ambush scenarios, more often used by the Romulans, where ships use silent running while sitting in a specific location. This method is also used by Intelligence vessels.
To be frank, given the published ability of long range sensors in SFB, nothing else makes sense to allow pirates to operate at all in the SFU. It should probably be published to avoid continued confusion over this issue.
I was falling back to see when you'ld no longer have us under S level detection ( although I already have a fairly good idea of that ).
I also have you at S level detection. I also know how big your S level detection radius is.
Maybe so, but (currently) no one actually knows how big that is (except for S5). Two, assuming the FL is as good as a PF there is still a question on how you determined he's an Orion...
Looking at the S levels, we have
S0 - explosions, essentially temporary blips on your sensor screen. Gives a general direction from you but no distance or anything else.
S1 - 'Permantent' blip, you can now track this (whatever), but like S0, gives only direction.
S2 - Movement weight, total MF available. First indication of danger level. [MF=1 can be 1 CA, 2 DD, or 3 FF] Direction only still.
S3 - vessel weight, number of separate vessels known. Average MF/vessel. Direction only.
S4 - MF tracking, each vessel's MF known, shuttles (SC6) first detect but not numbers. Direction only.
S5 - Distance (almost) known, with +/- 50 Mm (megameter) error.
Note that this does assume neutral EW! Standard Orion stealth means he is also one level higher than normal.
Now MJC, how did your frieghter captain know that this MF=1/3 vessel is an Orion? [Race/nation is level B, C with a 1 shift]
Hmmm, Q to SPP, is a civilian sensor suite as good as a military one (would the normal FL be as good as a PF)?
MJC is Orion Pirate Captain "Digger MaJiC" of the LR "Love Ewe." His sensor, comms and tactical operations muse is Space Sergeant Oessica Jorsini. Don't mess with her.
I am Kapn' Krunch of the Klingon Merchant Ship Weary Donkey... Senior Commander (K7), Major (M4) and Lt (M2) M'rafton of the Sector and Planetary NG too.
Well I guess my LR could detect an MC 0.33 signature and approach only to find myself attacking an Orion LR working my franchise.
As to turning to see if the freighter is being followed by the detected vessel...the Wacky Ivan!?!
A ship that does the Wacky Ivan shows that it is either:-
A) Opperated by a paranoid captain.
B) Carrying illegal cargo and wanting to sidestep being scanned by another vessel...i.e. leave the shipping lane.
C) Carrying cargo so important to the front that it can not afford to have the cargo caught by pirates.
D) A Q-ship looking to sucker an Orion into battle.
E) Carrying cargo that is so important to the ecconomy that it can not afford to be caught by an orion.
Whilst being good for determining if the vessel near you is a pirate it's also great at signaling to the Orion that you've got a better than average chance of carrying worthwhile cargoes ( in both the capturing of cargo and the award of a bounty for the destruction of that cargo and also in the reduction of the number of Imperial Q-ships ).
A.P.:
1) A lot of trading vessel just can not be regulated to that degree that they all have the codes and the codes are up to date.
It's hard enough making sure a vessel has been certified as seaworthy let alone actually making sure all the ships in your controlled zone of space you call your empire have all the right scramblers and they're all set to the right coder-wheel settings.
As to the reach of sensors.
It is undoubtedly counter-balanced by the speed of vessels making strategic movement, Freighter included.
Since the length of time a signal appears on the sensor opperators screen on average is not going to be less than 1 second ( not on a freighter ) before an "heads up" gets to the captain, S level detection is probably not going to set off an alarm, a pirate could know that he has a 90% chance of getting through the S levels undetected if he passes through those levels in say, under 4 minutes and a 15% chance if he takes 12 minutes to travel through those zones.
Thus pirates quite probably rely on the faster speeds of the ships ( particularly at strategic speeds ) to offset S level scanning.
Any reach of sensors has to weigh up the effects of strategic movement on a ships ability to really claw down the range.
MIke, I sorta agree, but tha tinterpretation does NOT agree with published historical fiction.
S levels means you gets plenty of time to react...
MJC. The computer would alert the crew, even if they didn't catch it themselves. Detecting a ship and detecting that that ship is on an intercept course is not exactly difficult programming.
And I would disagree that SFU shipping would not be regulated to the degree I am suggesting. Automation and a centralized system can do wonders. We do it now in the U.S. for 18-wheelers (i.e., their manifest is tracked and they have GPS trackers installed).
18 wheeler's I think you'll find that is for special cargoes.
Also I have a hunch that Canadian and Mexiacan trucks ( particularly those going through rather than to places in the US ) may or may not have GPS tracking ( although the manifests would get a closer check at the boarder crossing than most anywhere else in The States.
Detecting an intercept coarse or just a freighter passing through you detection radius, I suspect that the computer would track the target through longer range S level detection and then alert the crew at some closer range S level detection. You don't wnat an alarm every time you detect a freighter ahead or behind you. An alarm when the freighter is closer and on an intercept cause ( rather like the collision warning siren on a commercial airliner ) or a collisions cause, now that's when the alarm goes off.
You don't want the alarm going off every 90 seconds for the first and last half hour or your journey as you deal with the ships associated with a harbour.
The problem with comparing the SFU trade system to real life (say 18-wheelers in the US) is this: How much piracy is directed at the 18-wheeler traffic in the US? To continue the analogy, this piracy must be carried out by light tanks spouting military issue hardware. These light tanks then disappear and the police have a hard time finding them.
The facts we know about the SFU trade system:
1) It supports pirates.
2) These pirates are NOT immediately caught by the authorites (of any race) and summarily shot.
3) The pirates are running around with military grade frigates and cruisers built at secret shipyards. The police do not suddenly know where these shipyards are.
Anything you design into your SFU trade system which does not allow #1 is therefore flawed.
So, instead of taking a modern world analogy, perhaps the wild west analogy (as seen in Hollywood movies) is better? The black hats raiding the stage coaches. Detection ranges limited to the mark I eyeball, confused by forest and rocks. The baddies hiding behind trees before jumping out and shouting 'Stand and Deliver'. The cavalry generallly only arriving when it's too late... The sherriff tracking the baddies to their mountain hideout etc.
Modern analogies just don't work.
(This reminds me of the discussions we used to have on piracy in the Traveller universe. General consensus was the life of a pirate was nasty, brutish and incredibly short...). 
MJC. You would be surprised, especially post-9/11.
David. I choose to go with both
As in - both a modern analogy AND those same precepts you mention. In that light, only an advanced system, which the Pirates can bypass (such as my proposal above) fits the bill.
I'ld argue that the tracking by GPS was just not possible because space is just too big and the tracking is just too expensive.
I wonder if the car-jacking rate has jumped up with the GPS systems following trucks.
Also it a human thing.
How much does it cost to keep an overseer minding the GPS tracking system to call the cop and how much leeway is allowed.
If I stop for a red light, are the cops sent out, what about stop to take a leak, what about turn off into a back street to visit my cousin?
To a certain degree there will be leeway and so long as the pirate know how much leeway there is, they can set up situations to take cargo.
If an 18 wheeler is carrying 1000, VCRs and the trucker stops to take a pee and comes back 5 minutes latter and 10 VCRs are stolen...is it still not a crime that can support the criminals?
Andy: Any rules introduced dealing with detection (or lack thereof) are going to be used in SFB (the game) primarily by miltary vessels. For example: Can I send my 12 ship fleet across the border, with everything but the frigate on passive, silent running?
You could obviously tie this silent running in with the Orions stealth bonus (do all Orion pirate ships get stealth? If not, what happens to the ones that don't?) and say it only applies to Orions...
...and if it works so well for Orions, we'll need a 'stealth fast raiding cruiser' for all races...
...and given sufficient lubrication of the synapses I can probably think of another dozen things the military could do with a 'stealth silent running' rule.
So we can probably come up with such a rule as you suggest (it is even a good rule), but we'll have to plug all the holes first...
The idea that you don't detect pirates until you have level A tacint would certainly make piracy work. Just have to come up with the restrictions so that EVERYONE didn't do it all the time.
Why not say that the stealth running requires some high-grade dilithium? For very profitable missions, pirates could afford it for the short time necessary. General usage by fleets was not possible, although it preved very effective for raids and blocade running.
After all, if you feed the best fuel possible to pretty much any automobile engine, it gets much quieter and runs more efficiently.
I would suggest that the ability to travel long distances from a base requires a certain amount of internal volume (for spare parts, supplies, crew facilities, etc.) that isn't commensurate with the slimmed-down design of an Orion stealth hull.
An Orion would never be more than a couple days' sail from base. A Frigate might be redeployed from one side of the Empire to the other, and expected to make the whole trip in a single leg, and fight the enemy as soon as it arrived.
MJC. Computers can do amazing things these days.
A.P.:
And still they keep saying:-
Garbage in; garbage out.
Firstly your crack super computer that can track our ship's movement and determine that we are a pirate vessel is bounded to be cheaper than our crack super computer design to plot coarses that you can't detect as hostile.
When we steal, we are very carful to take the best stuff...we are professional after all.
Secondly. There's still a human being in the loop somewhere.
Thirdly. The background material doesn't show us to be all that smart.
Fourthly on't you think we'ld hire some top notch programmers and hacker so that when we signmal your automated position beackon, that we put a virus onto your system to show our ship to be traveling in a freighter coarse when the truth is quite different.
"The more complex the machinery the easier it is to throw a spanner in the works!"
M.P.:
I would sugest the nature of Orion opperations ( the raise DamCon levels ) would mean they opperate longer away from port.
MJC. I just know what we're doing NOW with trucks. I just know what UPS is doing NOW with not only their trucks but their drivers. To think that hundreds of years from now our capabilities would be reduced just doesn't make sense.
Andy: Keep in mind that we are not talking about real life. We are talking about the SFU, which has a certain set of basic assumptions. One of those being, pirates exist, and can (and do) attack freighters. The question is not "how can pirates exist, given the technology base"; instead, it's "what is the technology base, given that we know pirates exist".
mjc: The raised Damage Control levels could just refer to jury-rigged repairs during battle, and these things are only expected to hold together long enough to get the ship back to base. Orions are presumably, exceptional engineers; see engine doubling, optional weapons, etc.
Michael. My point exactly, and that is why I proposed what I did.
MJC wrote "...track the target... alert at some closer range... an alarm every 90 seconds for the first and last half hour of your journey..."
Hence, why I pay a scanner/science/sensor operator's salary. On a small ship, there may only be a three people on a bridge watch, the one on the helm, the officer of the Deck, and the one who is navigating/scanning/ sensoring/ and doing comms (ie, the one doing everything else). The fact that there is a human monitoring the alarm circuit when we are flying in "congensted" areas woudl mean the "Sgt Jorsini" filters out the spam and lets Capn Digger worry about the important ones. The alarm is at HER Station, she passes on the important ones. PLUS, if there is THAT much traffic in the area, there should be a reason it is all there, like a station, planet, whathaveyou. That place should have some form of customs/NG/whatever to make me less worried about hijack. What we need to worry about is hijack WAY far from everything else.
David Crew wrote "... perhaps the wild west analogy (as seen in Hollywood movies) is better? The black hats raiding the stage coaches..."
Amusing vision, but I think we are more likely to be dealing with Capn' Blackbeard sourge of the seas, with the valiant forces of hte Royal Navy trying to protect commerce on it's commercial routes. And making sure that the pirates don't get too uppity in those regions that are "infrequent" passage areas. So we have detection radius (Masts ho, on the horizon. I see four ships masts. Looks like tops and royals on square riggers. I can see the spanish colors. I can see the lead ship is a 2 decker...)
Note that BOTH stagecoaches and sail powered merchant ships invested in self defense when they were venturing outside "secured" areas.
If I tok a stagecoach ride and Black Bart and his 5 desperados intercepted us, well, there is a reason "riding shotgun" got into the language as a descriptor for the guy riding next to the driver. Second, passengers could easily have = weaponry as the criminals, even if less expertise. You don't htink the James Brothers had hand cranked gatlings, do you. It is notable that during the era of "Bonnie and Clyde" and others, banks often had SHOTGUNS or TOMMY GUNS to repel robbers. YES< FULL AUTO .45 cal smgs.
IN the great age of sail trading, the Brit East INdia Co had armed merchants, but I am sure that cargo vessels moving stuff from Northern England/ scotland to (occupied) Ireland were not armed.