Archive through June 29, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Rules:
(J) Shuttles and Fighters:
Casual fighters in freighter skids:
Archive through June 29, 2005
If I understand the positions of the ships correctly I got hit by 1 R1 Ph-2, 1 R2 Ph-2 an R4 Ph-2 and 3 R4-8 Ph-2s.
That's about 12 points of damage, not 23 (not counting my 3 stealth ECM points).
As to not knowing, yes, I wouldn't have known if he "switched on" the EW pod just before I fired.
This is one of the problems of this style of play BTW, there's a big potential for ME TOO!
J.W.:
I wouldn't like to say it publically but if M.C.G. goes for a certain path then he has it all sown up but I wouldn't like to mention what that idea is publically.
Two things.
First, Michael John Campbell is continuing to hold to his attack based on his earlier misunderstanding of the situation Michael C. Grafton described. Michael John Campbell was not as close as he thought, and would not, I say again not, reach the range to do the damage to the fighters he was defining before the fighters could have launched drones under the conditions Michael C. Grafton had defined.
Second, Jeff Wile this is not a test and cannot be without first resolving the various rules errors.
Error #1. Even if you allowed the existence of the skid type, they do not turn the freigher into a carrier, but into a casual carrier. Therefore fighter #1 and fighter #2 were never "fully loaded and ready to fly as CAP" at Weapon Status Zero. So from the point where Michael C. Grafton spotted the Dread Pirate Campbell and gave the order to ready the fighters, it would take (assuming two deck crews working on one fighter) a minimum of one turn to launch a fighter with two type-I drones. It would take two full turns to launch a fighter with two type-I drones and two pods, but as a casual carrier he cannot have pods at all (J11.13). A fighter could be launched in 16 impulses if it launched with a single type-I drone or in eight impulses if it launched with a single type-VI drone (two deck crews working on it). Any could launch immediately as "phaser platforms".
But he cannot launch them as quickly as he has with their various rails filled (and cannot have pods).
Every type-I drone loaded onto one of those fighters is a deck crew action that has to be performed during the scenario if he begins at Weapon Status 0 or Weapon Status I. At higher weapons status he can choose to have one or two fighters be the ones prepared for "special missions", but that means if he chooses to have two fighters ready, he does not have a scatter pack (out of his admin shuttle), wild weasel, or suicide shuttle loaded. He only has the four deck crews for the fighters, they supplant and put the normal deck crew(s) out of business (ships that carry casual fighters have fighter deck crews only, not fighter deck crews in addition to the two non-fighter deck crews found on ships that do not have fighters).
Error #2 is that freighters do not travel at their maximum speed, and he really should have started his freighter for the scenario at the more normal speeds of five or six and accelerated from there.
Error #3 was having pods. A review of the rules says he will not have any, I say again, ANY pods. The skids do not make the freighter a "Fully Capable Carrier", so it cannot have a pod Stockpile under (J11.13), and cannot buy any with Commander's Options as per (J11.133).
I would also say that the fact that these skids are supposed to make the freighter a casual carrier, that they should have the supplies found on a casual carrier (J4.621), i.e., enough drones to reload the fighters three times. Fitted for Z-1s, there are 12 spaces of drones available in each skid (a total of 24 on two skids). Additional drones could be purchased with Commander's Options.
SPP:
That would materially change the situation, and I must admit that I was under much the same misconception that MCG had.
What would be an appropriate starting point for a scenario of this type?
Say:
Large freighter in hex #0115 direction facing 'B' or 'C', speed 5 or 6, WS=0 or 1.
Pirate Orion LR, map 3 (hex 0115, direction 'B' or 'C', speed max, WS=III and (depending on the map, IIRC SFB maps are 30 hexes "tall" (reading from top of map to bottom) and some 42 hexes wide (reading from left to right), that would place the ships some 100 hexes apart with the maps laid out (left to right) in a format of map 3, map 2 and map 1.
(it would also give the freighter 42 hexes to reach map hexside 42xx).
It would allow the freighter time to start accellerating, arming fighters and perhaps make a turn or two, while MJC could do what ever a pirate making a over run attack on a large single freighter, would do (assuming, that is, MJC makes those pirate appropriate decisions at the times he should!)
Jeff Wile:
I was willing to allow the story to go forward, and was only noting the limitations. As a story, as something that someone tried one time. But SVC has already pretty much said that you are not going to get fighter skids that carry regular fighters, and the rules for the Shenyang F-7 are pretty much set. And I see no reason to try to change this situation to "Kenyang K-7s of the Klingon Empire".
So, for purposes of fiction, Michael Grafton has his Z-1s, and should be operating under the rules for a Casual Carrier and go from there. Which does mean that the fighters have no EW pods, and no pods can be procured for them, and there are only 24 spaces of drones on the freighter (total) plus any he buys with his Commander's Option Points.
So, technically, Michael Grafton needs to adjust his drone inventory. (He might have decided to have some type-VI drones, say perhaps by having three of the fighters equipped with type-I and the fourth with one type-I and a type-VI, so he would have 7.5 x 3 = 22.5 spaces, so he would have 22 type-I drones and four type-VI drones if he wanted.) And he needs to adjust what his deck crews were doing and thus what the status of his fighters actually were when launched in terms of their drone loads. And both he and Michael John Campbell need to get on one track with regards just where the Light Raider was at the end of Turn #1 as they already had a Turn #1 set up and where they ended Turn #1.
This is, at this juncture, a fiction story and not a test of a design concept for a new skid class.
SPP. What is the rationale behind #2? One could argue that a YF-L would be traveling at speed 5-6, but a GW one - it seems overly slow.
If you drive the warp engines at maximum output, they are less efficient and require maintenance sooner. The engines are "tuned" to a specific balance of efficiency and output, and running them at another setting means they don't work as well. This doesn't matter much to naval units (who are paid for with Your Tax Dollars), but a private freighter captain will need to have an extremely good reason before he redlines his engines (which will virtually guarantee an expensive rebuild at the end of the trip.)
Andy Palmer:
That you would have to ask of SVC, but I suspect it is just an assumption in the background that slower is more economical than faster, and freighters are in the business of moving cargo to generate revenue for their owners. It can be assumed that some cargoes are moved faster if the shipper (the person or organization sending the consignment) is willing to pay a higher charge. But that gets you into the general concept that a given freighter probably does not have a cargo that is entirely made up of YOUR shipment, so you are paying that extra to move everyone else's cargo consignment as well. And if your cargo was that important, you could probably get a Free Trader to move it, or even an Armed Priority Tansport.
So freighters tend to move at their most economical speed, barring attack or other untoward incident.
A fast check of scenarios involving freighters (as opposed to Q-ships or auxiliaries) shows that more often than not they are moving speed 4 (whether pre-General War, Post General War, or During the General War). Sometimes speed 6. There are a few cases where attack is imminent where they set up at speed max, and a few cases where pursuit is ongoing where they are at speed ten. But the norm for freighters is speeds four to six.
OK then.
Lets see if we can reconstruct an appropriate version of events.
Say as of impulse #32 or turn Zero, we have Dread Pirate Campbell in his Orion LR at hex # 0115 facing direction B, speed max WS III, map #3.
The Large Klingon Frieghter (with skids and fighters) is in hex #0115 map #1, facing direction 'B' speed 6.
At end of turn #1 (impulse #32) we would have (I guess) the Orion LR in hex #3315(still map#3) (using side slips) and the large freighter (assuming max possible accelleration of '4' to speed 10) would be in hex 1115. (actual range would be ....68 hexes?!?! (I'm doing this in my head, so if I made a mistake, please excuse me!)
No firing Opportunity yet, the Orion LR would still be at WS3, and the Large freighter would be improving its weapons status? (I forget the exact rule... can they go from WS=0 on turn 0 to WS=1 on turn 1?)
any way, MCG gets his first turn to arm fighters.
turn 2, the range drops to 51 hexes after movement of the Orion LR 31 hexes and the Lrg Freighter increases speed to 14. (68-31+14=51) Dread Pirate Campbell can take a phaser shot, if he wants to, phaser 1 will hit at range 51 on a roll of a '1' on a 6 sider (assumng no EW effects)
End of turn 2 MCG gets a 2nd turn to arm fighters, WS goes to WS=2?
End of turn 3, range drops to 38 hexes (51-31+18=38) and action moves to another map as the large freighter has moved 42 hexes in 3 turns(current location hex #0115, map 0)while the Orion LR is in hex 0515 of map #1. MCG gets a 3rd turn to ready fighters, Dread Pirate Campbell improves his chances of hitting the freighter, as at range 38, any phaser 1 rolls hit with a '1' or '2' result. WS=3 on both ships.
Aw shucks, made a mistake, momentarily forgot that a large freighter has a max speed of 17 (using all warp and 1 impulse engine point)... so he couldnt do speed 18 on turn 3.
pity.
Well, then range is 37 hexes at the start of turn 4 and the large freighter is in hex 4214 (instead of 0115 of map 0).
End of turn 4, the range drops to 23 hexes (37-31+17=23) MCG gets 4 full turns to arm fighters, MJC gets a range 23 shot(if he wants to take it using photon or phasers) and 4 turns have elapsed of the time needed before help can arrive to rescue the weary donkey.
is this the starting point where "the action can start?
I am NOT in a position to duke this scenario out.
1) I would invite anyone to play this out with full impulse resolution (I have NO books or stuff now). MJC and I agreed to the conditions, I would be happy to send them to potential players. the start is in this topic, dated "Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 09:36 pm"
2) My favorite part of this is the entire fiction writing process, with "Digger MaJiC" and "Sgt Oessica Jorsini" aboard the LR "Love Ewe" (hahahaha) and me as Marine Colonel, Captain and LT M'rafton. I have a fighter pilot named M'appy M'oyington with me on the "Weary Donkey" Kaptain Krunch Kommanding.
Start on impulse 32, turn 0, MJC is 30 hexes astern, with a photon and 2 gracks. I have 4 zorans and am (going as fast as I am allowed)fleeing. Historically I called GQ and used a point of btty to warm phaser caps.
YOU ARE REQUIRED to use as many silly Aussie stereotypes and such as humanly possible, whenever MJC is to give orders (Aye, we ockers chase the Weary Donkey like Hoopsnakes after a Pomme, Ambush the Weary Donkey like Drop Bears...)
Please note that one of the advantages Michael C. Grafton has is the concept of the Skids being "purpose built" which allows his deck crews to work from ready racks. You would normally expect in a fiction piece that the fighters are taking the place of an HTS shuttle in a LASH skid and it would require twice as many deck crew actions to load the drones. But we are ignoring that.
As I have noted before, one of the questions you have in a scenario of this nature is just when it starts. The Orion wants to start with a full turn before the freighter can do anything (and has a legitimate claim to that since his sensor suite is better and he has a lot of stealth). The freighter wants to start with with being able to go to energy allocation immediately and not being forced to rely on his battery to do anything.
If the freighter spots the Orion during Energy Allocation of Turn #1, then he allocates a point of power to start warming the phaser capacitors. If the freighter spots the Orion after Energy Allocation, then he will have to use his battery to begin warming the phasers. If the Freighter spots the Orion during Energy Allocation, then he can accelerate that turn. If he spots him after energy allocation, that is a turn where not only is he using his battery to warm the phasers, but even though he can turn, he cannot accelerate (the battery would not have been filled with reserve warp power if they were not in a combat situation).
Just when in a turn the freighter realizes it is under attack is an important part of the scenario.
Going from Weapon Status 0 to Weapon Status III is a variable, depending on your weapons, speed, power, etc.
To all intents and purposes a Kzinti BC (or CS or CL, or FF, or etc.) is at Weapon Status III on Turn #2. It sees the enemy on Turn #1, dumps a battery to warm the phaser capacitors if it was not able to do so during an energy allocation, and on Turn #2 he can charge and fire the phasers, fire the disruptors as standards or overloads, and launch drones. Same for a Klingon, of course, and essentially the same for a Lyran since he has to dump power into the ESGs.
A Gorn Battle Cruiser that spots an enemy will not be at weapon status III until Energy Allocation on Turn #3. The problem being that it will take three turns to arm the plasma-G or plasma-S torpedo.
A Federation ship that does not spot an enemy before Energy Allocation of Turn #1 will also take three turns to be fully armed since he will not have reserve warp power (there was no enemy, so he would not have been cycling his batteries for reserve warp), so he could not begin arming the photons until Turn #2, and thus would not have them complete until Turn #3 (a Gorn could, of course, begin arming his plasma-G or plasma-S torpedoes with battery power, but does not have the batteries to both begin arming both torpedoes and warm the phaser capacitors). If the Federation ship saw the enemy just before Energy Allocation, then he can be fully armed at the start of Turn #2 (although obviously he will not be moving very fast).
ISC ships are similar to either Gorn (plasma armed variants) or Federation (PPD with no plasma-S or Plasma-G torpedoes) models. (The Romulans are also on the Gorn model, of course.)
The "joker" in the deck to Weapon Status III is the "special mission shuttles". No one can have a suicide shuttle in less than three turns (and fully arming two of them is a significant energy drain). Two Wild Weasels can be readied in two turns. Scatter Packs are going to take three turns (six turns to arm two of them since you only have two deck crews on non-carriers).
So, excluding shuttles, a typical freighter will be at Weapon Status III at the start of the second turn, even if caught flat-footed in mid turn of the first turn. All it does is dump the battery to warm the phasers, and during Energy Allocation of Turn #2 it powers the phasers. Note that this basically applies to all the armed freighters too (since plasma-Fs are always armed and plasma-Ds can be armed immediately and are already in the plasma rack just as drones are already in a drone rack, and we have already discussed disruptors which covers all of the weapons on armed freighters).
SPP:
I just realized that we are back to a situation similar to what happened in the 2 space fighter / 3 phaser 2 discussion, where we were talking tactics without having maps and counters deployed...
I wouldnt object to playing MCG's part for the battle (unless some one else would rather step in...) but unless we manage to "nail down" the details, the discussion will devolve into "I said/ he said" semantics.
IMO if the Orion starts the battle within 32 hexes of the WS 0 freighter, there is little that the frieghter can do to save itself.
now, starting at range 100...gives some leaway and almost enough time for help to arrive (the open question being... will it be soon enough?!?)
letting a pirate that close leaves the freighter captain very few choices available to him.
Quote:And both he and Michael John Campbell need to get on one track with regards just where the Light Raider was at the end of Turn #1 as they already had a Turn #1 set up and where they ended Turn #1.
I think MCG was willing to say that he had done some counter opposed sideslips and thus the range at turn 2 was correct.
Jeff and MJC, I invite you to play this out again with the entire impulse deal in effect.
As the backstory should have made clear, the Weary Donkey DID detect the LR at sufficient range that it had plenty of time to warm phaser caps and had ONE fighter already on "alert" ready to launch and all loaded up. As an exception to the usual way of things (due to 1) the eager beaver NG detail commander and 2) It's just for a week or so of standing extra watches, not forever for these guys. The "thrill has not yet faded...)
As MJC and I "gamed" this out (mistakes by both of us and all) as part of the back story. I S level detected SOMETHING out there (within the limits of my sensor suite and MJC's stealth advantage) and turned to see if he was coming FOR me, or just TOWARDS me. He turned to maintain an intercept course and bored in at strategic speeds (warp 4= speed 64, warp 5= 125, 6=216, 7=343...). I fled as well as possible. He got to tactical range (dropping to tactical speeds) in effectively 1 turn.
Impulse 32 of turn 0 we continued, me running away and him in a stern chase. We were at range 30. I really really needed TIME to arm the other 3 skids and get my phaser caps filled (as my EA should have shown).
He chased me down and we skipped turn 1 (well, I have no t bombs, nor seekers to shoot. Saving Phaser caps).
As SPP noted, the skids ARE casual CVs, that is the entire point in having them as purpose built defense skids, as opposed to casual use of a LASH skid/ ducktail.
I wish I had someone to play this with (and a PLACE with the stuff). At this point I defer to you two.
But I WILL hold you guys to my "MOCK THE OZZIES" theme. MJC knows about ockers, hoopsnakes, drop bears and more I'm sure.
Steve Irwin "Crikey, he's got razor sharp teeth does he???" and Paul Hogan "That's not a knife..."
Michael John Campbell:
From what I have read of the topic, that is wishful thinking on your part, since it lets you claim to have killed the fighters at close range before their drones could launch.
The situation stagnated tactically in part from your view of the situation that you had done so, and several (at least two) people pointed out that you were "not that close" including Michael C. Grafton.
Basically, you misinterpreted a data point from someone else's missive as the range and took things from there.
While it is perfectly understandable that you would like this error to stand (it is understandable, no intent on my part for this to mean anything other than that you are human) as it makes "proving your point" effortless.
Jeff Wile:
That gets you back to the basic discussion of piracy that we have already been through.
To recap.
A given pirate might approach six or more freighters over the course of a period of time. When the freighter "reacts" (usually by accelerating and sending an S.O.S.) he knows he has been spotted. If this happens too soon, he calls it a bad job and turns away. But as noted, if he is desperate for a score he might chase the freighter down running a greater risk that "help" will arrive. If the freighter reacts very late, or not at all, i.e., he is within 30 hexes when a speed 4 freighter accelerates to speed eight, he probably goes for it (but closer is better).
In most cases a solitary freighter will "heave to" rather than run the risk that the pirate will destroy them. In some cases there will not even be an S.O.S. before the freighter heaves too. These will be cases where the pirate got close enough to threaten immediate destruction if the freighter did send an S.O.S. This allows for more leisurely checking of the cargo to determine just what is best to acquire.
Note that this does mean that pirates that make threats of death and destruction MUST CARRY THEM OUT. If you threaten to space the crew of a freighter you have taken by surprise at close range if they try to signal for help, then you must space the crew if they ignore you and send the S.O.S., and it really does not matter if the captain ordered it or the junior crewmember thought he was being a hero. Bonus points, however, for creativity, say spacing everyone but the one who sent the signal so that he can live with the guilt that his friends are dead because of him.
But, honestly, you do not want to wantonly kill merchant crews. Oh, an example might have to be made, and even the Federation is not going to get that bent out of shape if one merchant crew suffers under the "cost of doing business". But if you do it frequently, like more than once or twice in a year, that is going to get the fleet very interested in finding you. And if you are capricious about it, the Orions will come looking for you (and they provide your supplies and replacement crewmen). Because you will get the government to initiate a crackdown on piracy, and that is bad for the Cartel's business. As a result, the Cartels do not sell ships to "mad men" and are as likely to execute a psychotic individual (actually, more so) as the Kzintis.
So the ideal Orion op is to pounce on a freighter so close that there is nothing the crew can do but "stand and deliver".
So every Orion approach is the same, and every Orion approach is different. Scenarios are based on those where, for some reason, "something went wrong".
1.) The Orion was spotted when he was too far away, but he needed a score desperately.
2.) The Orion pulled off the pounce on the freighter perfectly, but "help" was closer than normal.
3.) Something unexpected happened, like a Jindarian in an asteroid field or a Q-ship.
4.) Some other variable.
Most Orion Piracy "events" are not scenarios because there is nothing of interest in them. An Orion Pirate Campaign has always been a goal of mine (the one I originally did back in the mid 1980s is long lost). But such a campaign would ignore most of what goes on in Piracy, i.e., there would be no point in having the player roll a die to see if he was succeeding in sneaking up on the freighter, be told "Sorry, not this time, roll again" five or six times before he succeeds. You would basically have him roll to determine what kind of freighter he was pouncing on (I think I tended to start things at 30 hexes range), then the non-Orion player draws a card from a deck to see if the freighter is armed, or a Q-ship (Face Card = armed, Joker = Q-ship). Then does something else to determine the random time before "help" will arrive. Set up and play.
Things are more complicated now. (Ducktail or no ducktail? Skid(s) or no Skid(s)? Both? Not just is it a small or large freighter/small or large armed freighter/small or large Q-ship, but is it an Ore Freighter, an Ore Processing Freighter, a Hospital freighter, a Survey Freighter, A luxury liner, and so on. Lets nor forget "alone or in company".)
And, basically (at least in my book), if an Orion doubles his engines (even if just his impulse engines) to rob a freighter, he has lost the scenario. To be honest, that reflects a change from the mid 1980s when I ran my original Orion campaign. Back then I did not know any better about the idea of the logistics of Orion operations, and the Orion Captain always doubled his engines when pouncing on freighters. It made it easier to hit speed 31 while holding three overloaded photons on his Light Raider. Note that he always used Non-Violent Combat to avoid damaging the cargo, so he needed the punch of the overloaded photons to do enough damage to put the freighter out of commission.
Playing "The freighter side" of that campaign gave me insights into just what a freighter could and could not do. My freighter tactics actually led to some changes in the game. (Freighters are not allowed T-bombs except for those operated by the Guv'mint, i.e., auxiliary and armed freighters, and noone can buy NSMs for any old ship any more, back in the Commander's edition any ship could buy two, not just the Romulans, and the Romulans are now limited to one.) I think I have mentioned the story of the Freighter, the Mines, and the Light Raider before, and probably it does not need repeating.
But one insight that remains is "The Security Team". Spending the Freighter's Commander's Options for boarding parties. With four boarding parties on my small freighters (the maximum they could buy back then), if a Light Raider blew down a shield it could only send over two boarding parties at a time. Half the time, both would be killed, and since they would at best kill one defending boarding party and could not use specific allocation, I would surrender a control box, which I would immediately get back as there were no Orions left. Small freighters might eventually be overwhelmed on average die rolls, but I had at least one that repelled an entire Light Raider's marine force and militia.
With seven boarding parties on a large freighter, plus rallying the one possible militia squad, I never lost a large a freighter to a Light Raider boarding attempt (although with bad die rolls for me and good die rolls for the Orion, it was possible, it just never happened the few times it came up).
So it came down to deciding if "help" was going to come. If the S.O.S. I sent got a response that someone was going to be there in a short period of time, my security teams would fight. If the word was that help was not going to get there in time . . . well "even I get boarded sometimes". Because the problem is that the Orion Light Raiders can kill you if they have enough time.
So, while The Dread Pirate Campbell likes his Photon and drone racks, the
CANCELLED BY DEPARTURE TO ORIGINS
Quote:While it is perfectly understandable that you would like this error to stand (it is understandable, no intent on my part for this to mean anything other than that you are human) as it makes "proving your point" effortless.
I think the opposite is true, that without killing the fighters fairly easily due to the close range, it would nigh on impossible to carve through 4 fighters in about 6 turns.
I think the whole set up was wrong, and should have used SG4.0 as the basis point.
As to me playing this out. I don't think I will, MCG roped me in and then both bailed and showed me to be a blunderer ( or did I do that ) and at any rate I'ld rather not be the bad guy and opperating pretty blind in this anymore.
If we get back to the original thesis which was "Putting 4 fighters on a large freighter would aid in survivability vs pirates" we have the following conclusions:
1) If the freighter starts at WS-0 with the pirate at range 15 at WS-III then the answer is no. The Fighters are just targets and won't achieve anything.
2) If the freighter starts at WS-III with the pirate at range 100 at WS-III then the answer is maybe. Maybe because it then depends on when help arrives. The fighters certainly slow down the pirate, but that may not be enough to save the freighter. It might though.
So playing one scenario is really rather pointless to try to prove the thesis. You would simply be playing one of the scenarios in the untold number in the spectrum from 'sleepy freighter with no help ever' to 'paranoid freighter with a 12 ship battle group a mere turn away'.
Until you know the distribution of scenarios, proving economically whether fighters in skids is a good idea is a non-starter. (SVC said it was a non-starter anyway way back up thread).
So the only real point in scenario playing is either as a piece of fun in the 'I think this is sort of balanced' way, or in a 'this might make a good story' way. Which is what SPP has been saying all along... 
MJC seems to have decided the scenario isn't balanced, or at least not fun for him. Even MCG's ockerisms (which as an ocker I find amusingly stereotypical - like saying all Texans wear 10 gallon hats, snakeskin boots and chew tobacco religiously - oh wait - they do! ) seem not enough to entice MJC on the story aspect...
The scenario is therefore dead methinks. The conversation was fun though wasnnnit?
I would say if the freighter is NOT at WS 0, he should be able to achoeve something. WS 0 should represent a HUGE mistake that results in someone getting fired/executed/something bad...
6 turns is a MINIMUM, Starting turn 6 there is a 1/6 chance of rescue every turn (the potential rescuers range from a single pf on a ferry flight, to a POL, to fleet units).
The question in my mind is whether a freighter with one fighter on alert and warm phaser caps can hold off a pirate for a reasonable length of time. I only have 4 BPs and a very few cmdrs options (6 type 6 drones). Pay to spend all drones to speed M). Freighter BPV +10 (or whatever) for skids, +28 for 4 zorans, +10 or so for cmdr options and I should have a combat BPV of maybe 60 to 70. MJC has a higher BPV (and MUCH better ship) and WILL win eventually, but soon enuff is the question...
If I understand Mike's last post correctly... when MJC was making his approach using high warp speed (the warp 7 at 343 hexes per turn thing) the freighter turned and begin accelleration ...getting to speed 10 (from 6 the turn before) at turn -1, WS=I. uses battery to energize phasers. (since there would also be 24 drones in a stock pile per SPP post earlier, use 2 deck crews to arm fighters and 2 deck crews to begin arming scatter pack. that would leave 10 drones in storage.)
turn 0, IMP 1, Orion LR is 100 hexes away from large freighter, freighter speed 14, freighter is in the second turn of arming fighters, and the SOS is 2 turns old now. At the end of turn 0, (Impulse 32 the relative range from Orion LR to Large Freighter is 100-31+14=55 hexes apart. WS=II , the Orion is approaching the freighter from behind. Freighter refills battery to full capacity (after last turn using it to energize phasers).
Turn 1, Impulse 1, Orion LR is still 55 hexes away, still closing. Freighter is now moving at speed 17, freighter is in 3rd turn of arming fighters, the SOS is 3 turns old. At the end of turn 1, (Impulse 32 the relative ranage from Orion LR to large Freighter is (55-31+17)=41 hexes. WS=III, since this skid version is (purpose built) (see SPP post above) there are now 3 drone armed phasers using the 4 deck crews, racks and 3 type 1 drones on each Z-1 fighter. Also, with 3 turns of 2 deck crews laboring, the scatter pack is armed and ready to go.
Turn 2, Impulse 1, Orion LR is still 41 hexes away,still closing. The large freighter is still moving at speed 17. WS=III. 3 of the fighters fully armed, 3th one will be ready at end of turn. scatter pack warmed and ready. SOS is now 4 turns old, help on the way?!? will it get here in time? relative range between Orion LR and the large freighter is 41-31+17)=27 hexes.
And this is where I expect the action to start...on Impulse #1 of turn 3.
I understand that many times, pirates may make closer approach, but If you go back to MCG's fiction primer, the captain of the freighter was expecting trouble, has the fighters and skids available "just in case" and made an effort to monitor possible interceptions.
The case MJC made about a closer starting point may well be "the normal situation" but this casee is different, its intended to be a basis for a fiction story, and should reflect role playing more than just game mechanics.
At the very least, MJC should explain the need/desire/compulsion he has to seize a ship load of fruit cake from "good old cap'n Krunch" and why the cartel assigned an ORION LR (which one has to assume has better prospects available than taking some holiday bakery goods from the children at the destination planet....
OK, since I don't have J2.
Why wouldn't a freighter use a Drogue instead of a fighter(s)? Cost or Availability?
Turn -1 MJC is far far away (ie at the limit of S level detection, given his stealth and my sensor suite) and is CRUISING towards me. I am still in routine operations mode this turn. NOTE, I have one fighter on ready to launch status routinely (similar and as an alternative to a CAP flight). But phaser caps are empty and cold.
Late in the turn after my sensor operator tells me that MJC is on an intercept course (it COULD be an accident at this point still) I turn and he counter turns to keep me on intercept. I accelerate as much as possible, and warm phaser caps by reserve power. CAPTAIN TO THE BRIDGE! rings out over the MC-1
Turn 0, I am accelerating away as much as possible. MJC closes until he has to drop into tactical warp. Note that this closure is VERY VERY FAST. I hit GQ and everyone runs to their stations. Charge Phasers and fill Btty. Note, I have plenty of power to spare as I am below my max speed at this point. The freighter actually has a decent amount of power under medium speed regimes.
Turn 1 I am at speed 17 (max, SPP has pointed out,probably correctly, I should be at speed 14 or so) and mjc is closing at speed 30 from dead astern. I send an SOS (captain is on the bridge and NG crew is closed up now). I run and arm 2 fighters (using 2 deck crews each). At the end of turn 1, MJC has closed to range 13 (range 30, - MJC speed, + MCG speed). The freighter deck crew uses one deck crew action to put 1type 6 drone in a Scatter pack (note I only have fighter drone control and fighters can't accept seeker control duties from other units and the freighter can only control 3 seekers). I HOPE to launch a 3 dogfight drone SP and MJC might overkill the drones
Start of turn 2, I start launching the 3 fighters that are now combat capable at max rate. I am turning as hard as possible. MJC does not double and closes to wipe out the fighters. MY PLAN was to activate fighter ew pods when MJC got to range 8 (hoping he wastes his P1 firing through a shift, since ew is announced at the same time fire is declared), I will fire my fighter P2s at range 5 (or less asap, based on their release form post launch restrictions, I prefer sheild 1) and turn to get my P3 tail guns in arc for defense as I will know by then MJC has drone racks (otherwise I would shoot them at the #1 at range 5 or less)
The freighter will also fire on the same sheild with the 3 P2 ideally.
Several comments
1) MJC and I BOTH made errors. and having read the entire archive here, I made more than he did, especially in understanding the rules. Certainly my EA for turn 2 was a monumental error with reinf on the wrong sheild. As I have noted before, the whole "I spend an hour on EA and then 15 to 20 minutes on each impulse" deal bores me to tears. I am a HUGE fan of playing at a pace that is fun... PLUS MJC was the only one with the B@77$ to be willing to play it out. So to heck with the micromanagers
2) MJC was DELIBERATELY loaded with a few disadvantages here. He has to capture me before the rescue get on the map. Escaping his prize by sublight with a rescuer atop him would be hard!
3) As several dozen email writers have noted, a 3 pl F suite would be killer. But we are in Klink space and MJC is playing fair by the option rules spirit.
4) MJC and I are trying to game out the deal WITHOUT acting as if we know everything, just like a real life pirate and merchie would. FOr instance, if MJC had a cruiser warp signature I would have HAD to throw myself on his mercy, as I would have had no chance. MJC waited until he saw the fighters to make a make a decision about them. It is HARD to play this stuff out long distance.
5) If you read the early story, you know this cargo is especially important for the shippers home planet, but the Police and fleet could care less. The exporting local government and cargo importer has ponied up to rent the skids and the force comes out of local NG resources.
6) I think that all in all, there has been a good discussion of both sides. Certainly we have have learned a lot, and I think SPP has gotten a few new alternate insights...
7) And MJC is right, I got irked at all the nitpicking and cranky email and took my ball home. MJC NEVER wrote any nitpicky opinion email, though he DID correctly show me several mistakes in my understanding of the RULES.
AS I said, I welcome ANYONE to play this out. I am away from my stuff and am getting my shots for Afghanistan.
I think we can get a decent scenario setup from all that has gone before.
MCG noted that "I only have 4 BPs..."
That there is the killer. Let's work the scenario backwards and see how long it takes. Remember help will arrive on average (per the scenario setup) in 9-10 turns.
1) How long from freighter capture to stealing the freighter out of the area? How far does the freighter have to move? Can it just sublight disengage - that is one turn - or does it have to disengage by distance - that is 8 turns from a standing start to move 75 hexes... Therefore we'll assume sublight is OK - so say 2 turns, one to get the crew on board for 32 impulses, one to drop the warp engines.
2) How long does it take the LR to capture the freighter with 4 defending BP's? The LR has 18 BP's maximum, two transporters (I think, no SSD handy) and shuttles... We'll ignore the shuttles and assume the freighter is moving too fast. How long does the capture take? As SPP pointed out, four BP's will kill two BP's outright 50% of the time and take no damage in return (they'll give up a control space instead which they will retake as there will be no Orion BP's left on board). It is hard to work out how long an 'average' capture might take but it is a MINIMUM of 3 turns even with perfect rolls for the Orion. (Note to self - amusing to work this out). Lets say 5 or 6 turns on a good day.
3) How long does it take the Orion to de-fang the freighter? The fighters will only gain a turn or two on this. To remove the freighter shield is probably a turn, removing the facing phasers another turn or two. Say two turns if you are lucky - add two turns for the fighters for 4 turns total.
Total time: 10 turns without fighters, 12 turns with fighters. Greatest variable is the boarding action.
My advice? Don't buy the fighters, Buy more BP's... Just take a large freighter and buy the 6 BP's you can with CO's - costs 3 BPV. MUCH cheaper than a skid with 4 old Zoran's (38-40 BPV) You are immune to the LR then - just call and wait for help. If you are really scared - take a skid and a ducktail and buy MORE BP's with the extra CO's. Use the Skid and ducktail HTS to speed up cargo movements.
Quote:I would say if the freighter is NOT at WS 0, he should be able to achoeve something. WS 0 should represent a HUGE mistake that results in someone getting fired/executed/something bad...
Warships opperate in WS-0 a lot!
Indeed it would be hard to opperate the ship at a higher W.S. because the phaser Caps automatically empty themselves out every 25 minutes and you wouldn't want to be caught with your pants down when you get to the 25 minute point and powering the phasers does cost money from the point of view of spending antimatter.
..... And you want to have your phasers loaded for several minute incase you need to "debate" for a while. Thus keeping your phasers empty and flushing power from BTTY into Caps when your subspace radar actually detects something is better than trying to run around with your caps "hot" all the time.
..... Then there's the safty aspect of having caps charged often.
..... Then there is the fact that warships are going to be on the alert farm more often and far more effectively than freighters.
Quote:To remove the freighter shield is probably a turn, removing the facing phasers another turn or two.
Unfortunately with the design of skids, they're all facing.
Two skid is hellish even without the fighters.
On "Afghanistan"...good luck.
MJC, I agree about OPERATING at WS-0. MY point was that to STAY at WS-0 means you did not pay attention to your scanners. Warming caps AT LEAST would be prudent if a ship comes boring in towards you in the vastness of space on an intercept course.
The time from detection to tactical range is VERY SHORT, thus we are NOT talking about very much power, often.
MY POINT is that WS-0 should be reserved for the totally clueless, freighters in convoy that have an escort making all the decisions, parked in orbit with crew on leave, etc.
Parked in orbit with crew on leave is suprised, not WS-0. (Actually it is far worse than suprised which assumes that the crew is available and working as fast as they can.)
WS-0 is within 120 or so seconds of FULL combat status. Full readiness defined as EVERYONE (all shifts) at battlestations (we know this because DC is available, militia can be formed, and all marines are available), with EVERY weapon fully charged and ready to fire.
This is not bad at all. In fact in the real world that state of readiness (i.e. WS-0) is achieved only by units expecting combat to break out at any moment.
Warships, in time of war, at or near the fighting front, are hit at WS-0. I completely fail to see why freighters should be immune. Real warfare suggests that if anything the S-8 rules are far too generous. Claims that no merchant would be caught at WS-0 are nonsensical.
Douglas, I have to disagree somewhat.
1) You can "see" a LONG way in space
2) The S level tacintel rules even explain what you see
3) In SFB getting the phaser caps warm should be routine at an unexpected contact, just as these days a warship can go "weapons free" VERY rapidly with it's CIWS, AEGIS systems, ew etc.
GQ, gets some additional systems online, but there are considerable actions the Conn or OD can take before GQ is closed up.
I have seen military warships in the middle east with MANNED .50 cal mgs when a crappy little dhow is passed by. I think the Cole taught us some lessons...