Archive through August 28, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Rules:
(G) New Systems:
Something else for the Admin Shuttle to do...:
Archive through August 28, 2005
Proposed: that new rules be adopted to expand functions of the existing Admin Shuttle.
The Admin Shuttle already is a versatile and valuable unit, as well as representative of functions outside the scope of SFB tactical combat.
Some ideas that could qualify, but do not require the advanced abilities of the advanced admin shuttle, MRS, SWACs, prospecting , mine sweeping or the various fighters:
1. Admin shuttles to convey boarding parties using sublight movement from beyond normal detection range of sensors or scanners...such as a Fed CA closing to 100 tactical hexes (perhaps in a asteroid field or other terrain feature that obstructs detection efforts)
purpose is to get 8 boarding parties to a base/moon/PDU (assumes 1 crew unit per shuttle) covertly so that when the cruiser attacks, there is already a ground force present. (mostly a scenario option)
2. if the likely course of a ships escape is known (or suspected) like say a surprised Orion's favorate "Bolt hole" through an asteroid field has been seen several times, a Heavy cruiser dropping its shuttle complement off at a point where the shuttles could reach the ambush point during the time the CA goes off to be come the "beater" that drives the Orion into the ambush....another scenario ploy, but one possible if the Orions become too "predictable".
3. independent operations by admin shuttles. the source documents demonstrate that Admin shuttles have the ability to operate far from bases or mother ships, on various missions such as pursuit of a heavy cruiser (IIRC the menagerie episode), commerce/personnel transfer (several times, one where they discovered Cochrane the inventor of the warp drive), and search and rescue operations in conjunction with or independently of starship support.
That Admin shuttles have the ability for Non Tactical War speeds in excess of its tactical warp ability combined with the ability for extended duration voyages (far in excess of that available for fighters) due to the space available, bathroom facilities and food capacity.
This kind of rule would allow a personage (oh, lets say Stocker) on an inspection of the front to have an encounter with an enemy force (oh, say like a Romulan KB10) with nothing but his native wit and a Phaser 3 for additional fire power!
4. Robotic functions so that a starship need not leave its patrol zone, but the nearest base could load an admin shuttle with supplies/fuel, program the course and send it off while at the pre arranged meeting point the patrol could "rendezvous" with the supply Admin so as to maximize time on station.
better than detailing additional starships or one of the few and valuable tugs for the mission or even having to divert a police ship from its commerce protection mission.
5. allow the admin shuttles to fill part of the scout mission by monitoring one area of the patrol zone while the CA is checking on another area...another possible scenario thing if an Orion pirate tries to "pick off" the Admin shuttle and has to play cat and mouse before the CA comes back.
6. Life boat function. Lt. William Bly became famous for(among other things) sailing an open boat (IIRC) over 1,000 miles of open sea in the south pacific in the 18th century. In desperation, an Admin shuttle, (assuming adequate supplies and fuel) could make a similar voyage if needed. A GURPS PD hook.
7. Allow the Admin shuttles to covertly board enemy ships with the intention of capturing the target vessel. the Scenario becomes excape from within the defense zone of an enemy base or confines of PDU range. SFB rules already exist to capture enemy vessels and learn how to activate them in battle...another scenario hook were players "bid" on how many turns they have to activate the ships systems before their efforts are detected.
just some ideas, any comments?
Here's my $0.02.
1. My impression (and I could be wrong) is that any manned spacecraft with a functioning warp drive is a warm and bright object against a cold and dark background (space). However, the existence of sublight evasion rules suggest that it might be possible if the shuttles are modified. This may involve deactivating or removing the warp drive to reduce the signature of the shuttles. Also, I don't know if a Fed CA captain would be willing to send all four of his shuttles even to put eight boarding parties into position. The things are just too darn useful.
2. I'm not clear on how a few shuttles are going to be threatening enough in either a "beater" or "ambusher" role. Could you provide more details?
3. Re: The "Menagerie" episode. I've always found some humor in the thought of tearing after a heavy crusier in a shuttle. 
While the thought of using a large warship to ambush a senior officer in his shuttle is amusing, who would want to play such a scenario? Introducing a third party, a ship sent to rescue the senior officer, could make it more interesting. However, this doesn't answer the question of why an unescorted shuttle found itself in this situation to begin with.
4. Why not use a freighter?
5. This seems to risky to me. You point out the danger from an Orion, but a lone shuttle is a tempting target for many things. It has little chance of survival if it runs into a monster. There is also the possibility of capture by a hostile government.
6. This would make a fine PD adventure.
7. How does a shuttle sneak up on a ship? Or a base with special sensors?
Raymond Ford:
Thats why I phrased it as 'that new rules be adopted' to allow some of these features.
In some cases, the background material indicates that the Admin Shuttles had these abilities.
In others, the ability is implied (to a greater or lesser extent) as existing units have or are perported to have the ability. Look at the ODB thread where Steve Petrick suggested a Klingon PF (ground assualt version) could make a stealth approach on a planet with a PDU and deploy ground forces (or decoys, were still not sure which) using a HALO system and then disengage.
just wondering if an ADMIN shuttle could do the same thing in an earlier time period.
The point is, not all missions demand the destruction of the shuttles, it is conceiveable that the CA could recover the shuttles after the successful conclusion of the mission.
I suggested something similar to mission 1 on the ships proposal board; that seemed to fall on stony ground.
I think the 'covert approach' option would open up many new ideas, particularly for GPD; for SFB it might apply in specific circumstances, say a solar flare interfering with the defenders' sensors around a small colony or outpost.
Even well-defended positions can be taken by suprise - remember Matthias Rust, the young german who flew a Cessna through Soviet air defences and into Red Square in the 1980s?
Specific rules for this would be good, but it can also be covered in scenario setup conditions
("the Klingons have covertly inserted two commando BPs in remote areas near the Ground Missile Base, which the player can order to....")
Jeff Wile:
I'm not trying to shoot you down. I'm just offering my opinions and asking some questions to help you refine your ideas.
Using a ground assualt PF to smuggle in a single boarding party or equivalent was described in Captain's Log #25. That part of the article runs for a few paragraphs, so I'll sum up. The PF sneaks in at sublight, dashes in once it's 12-15 hexes from the planet, kicks out the team and large numbers of decoys, and runs like hell. There are several things at work here. First, the approach used by a PF on this kind of mission isn't just sublight (speed 1), it's unpowered. It may take days to coast in like this. Second, a ground assualt PF normally has enough life support for about eighty people (crew units and boarding parties). Carrying only one boarding party equivalent (such as a Prime Team or spy), this number goes down to about forty. The surplus life support capability is needed during the approach due to the time it takes. Third, the PF doesn't rely on stealth to get all the way to the planet. It gets close enough so that one turn of acceleration will be enough to get it into the atmosphere.
The devil is in the details. A shuttle may not have enough life support to get all the way to the planet while coasting. It's also doubtful to me that such a shuttle will remain undetected at ranges of a hex or less, under power or not.
Raymond Ford-
That's cool.
Just would like to point out that a shuttle is smaller that a PF, possibly more difficult to spot since it has bothe a smaller energy "foot print" for the scanners and sensors to locate as well as fewer crew for the bio signs to show up...
If a shuttle has sufficent life support capacity for limited intersteller travel (implied in some of TOS episodes), it may infact have sufficient capacity to allow a for a coasting approach of a hostile planet from 100 tactical hexes.
and while a shuttle may not have the ability to deploy a team as a ground assault PF does, perhaps it could make a "dead stick" approach using thrusters and not the impulse engines.
that's part of the "devilish details" that would need to be settled.
If Steve or Steve decide/or say that it cant be done, then fine it cant be done...but it would be a neat ability for a starship to have for the time period stretching from the time tactical warp is invented until ground assault PF's become available.
And one other note, since the Federation does not use PF's does that mean the federation is unable to use the technique? seems odd that the federation can not muster the technology to match the klingons in any given area of military competence!
And I thought this was all going to be about doing something once all the shuttles have been burned.
When the Admins are in space ( or destroyed ) you should be able to use the shuttle bay as a large "kill zone" and thus all the connected shuttle boxes can be given up as though they were a Klingon security station in boarding party combat.
Or something like that.
MJC:
Not sure I can see the justification for treating shuttle boxes as the equilvilent of a Klingon Security station...but if set up as a "kill zone" by the defending ships boarding parties, what would you say to a nominal +1 factor to the defenders totals to reflect the enhanced defensive position? (ie they are better able to use their weapons on the attacker(s).
I would like to see it with some kind of balance.
Say, the control compartment of the shuttle bay ( the equivalent of an Aerodrome Control Tower ) lets the last shuttle bay box act like a control station ( depending on how clear of shuttle s and trash the kill zone is ).
But shuttle ( and fighters ) that foracably land aboard you ship and then fire weapons whilst you have set up up this kill zone inflict largwe numbers of BP casualties ( say 1D6 ) in addition to the destruction of the SSD box.
You get a +1 on your area of combat ( limit +2 with Klingon Security stations ) but you risk the lives of the BPs, by setting it up...I think that would be fairly fair.
Oh WoW!
I just got a vision...
Scene:Shuttle bay, Federation Heavy Cruiser, USS Neversink.
The shuttle bay is empty except for the squad of Klingon marines forming up for an charge against the ships defensive boarding parties fromed up in the corridor and entrance to the shuttle bay.
as the Klingons approach the center of the shuttle bay, the Shuttle bay launch controler(up above the main floor in the control bay) and out of sight of the Klingons) presses the switches activating the tractor beams, thus launching the Klingon squad, still in perfect formation, out of the shuttle bay through the clam shell doors.
All except the leader of the squad. he had just stepped out of the effective zone of the tractor beam. the quick thinking launch control officer, without hesitation, dropped the force field and evacuated the air in the shuttle bay, thus flushing the valiant Klingon NCO out with the rest of the..."
Talk about no muss or fuss!
duplicate post.
sorry.
Yeah...shuttle bay exvautations could be fun.
The probably should be availible to the ship as it is.
If the enemy land on you shuttlebay deck, you could choose to loose all the shuttles on the deck out into space or none!
Gee, would the shuttle launch officer have his choice of vectors?
Does he score double, if he can "double bank" the boarding party?
New Idea for Admin Shuttles, Or really, an old idea, rediscovered!)
In one of TOS episodes, Spock in a shuttle Craft and a boarding party (I dont recall what the pretext was for that particular group to be with Spock) were forced to land on a hostile world inhabitated by tall 7 or 8 foot tall humanoid creatures that were both dangerous and non communicative (i.e. negotiation was not an option). Apparently communications did not work, and they had to engage in repairs to the shuttle craft.
The Enterprise was away completing another mission, then went "looking for Spock" and for some reason decided that the planet that the shuttle craft landed on was the place to concentrate the search, where upon they deployed the other shuttles and transporters to engage on the search.
the Drama element was a high ranking offial that "Ordered" Kirk to abandon the search...which Kirk complied with, but very slowly. As they were leaving the planetary system, they continued monitoring the planet with sensors.
Spock managed to launch the shuttle craft, and upon finding that the enterprise was not there, jetisoned the shuttles fuel and ignited it.
the Resulting flare was visible to the Enterprise so Kirk ordered the "in the nick of time" rescue.
What I am getting at with this illustration, is the Admin shuttles ability to jetison fuel and ignite it...
Three abilities come to mind concerning this:
1. For GURPS PD, Such a flare could be a "story hook". (or, it could be a distress signal, for ship wrecked characters).
2. A combat ability for the Admin shuttle similar to the scatter pack or suicide assault shuttle roles where a manned (possibly unmanned?!?) shuttle could jetison its fuel and ignite it as a plasma energy explosion. does 2 points of damage to every thing in the hex except the shuttle (since it is ahead of the explosion and using it for excelleration). not enough to kill a drone stack by itself, unless the drones were previously damaged (as in an asteroid field or dust cloud terrain). might have ability to kill/heal a monster?!? (Possible to use to "distract" a Sun Snake from seeking out the nearest star for the nova process?)
3. would allow the shuttle to exceed its normal speed for 1 turn (impulse?!?). If with out booster pods (or Dash Pods) the shuttle (for 1 turn of 32 impulses) could maintain Double its normal max speed (if it was limited to 6 hexes per turn, it could, for 32 impulses) maintain speed 12. If it had Dash pods, it could maintain speed 24 (for 1 turn). at the end of the 32 impulses, the shuttle max speed is 1 hex per turn. for all intents and purposes, its status reverts to a Sublight Shuttle. If equiped with dash pods, the pods are considered destroyed, and the shuttle takes 1/2 damage(if it had 6 hits, the new total would be 3).
Not sure what the phaser 3 status would be, can a sublight shuttle have a phaser 3? my thought would be that the phaser 3 would be destroyed if this procedure were done.
Comments?
Jeff Wile:
In re your concept of using a shuttle to smuggle in people. There are several falacies in your argument.
First, the PF model works because of the PF's speed and acceleration. Even if you allowed a shuttle using the approach to get to within two hexes of a planet, it maximum acceleration is only half its speed (J1.22). So Turn #1 you accelerate to speed four and are definitely detected (and we are assuming you could get to range two of the planet to start with and that you are using an MRS shuttle no less). The Def Sats go "Oh, a shuttle" and at range two cut loose with two phaser-2s and two phaser-3s. The worst possible damage they are going to do is eight points assuming only one DefSat was in position to see you (your MRS survives, but is crippled and not able to move faster than speed four at all). Next turn you move around the planet . . . or at least try to as you are promptly vaporized by another DefSat.
There is a point where you are going to be detected. Yes, I agree that that point will be closer to the planet than a PF could get, but you lack the durability of a PF to survive such a close pass, lack the PF's power reserves to bolster its shields and adopt a heavy ECM posture, lack the PF's acceleration, and lack the PF's range and carrying capability.
In short, a PF can go places a shuttle cannot even think about. The PF can carry a larger quantity of "decoys" which maximizes the ability of the dropped element to survive.
Now, could a shuttle sneak up on a planet with lesser defenses. Sure, but if it is not worth the effort to deploy defenses, how can it be worth the effort to send a shuttle in the first place?
SPP-
Answering the last part first, the only factor I could suggest would be if you wanted to deploy personnel on the planet and wanted to avoid having the starship (such as the CA the admin shuttle came from) spotted.
Comes under the topic of "plausable deniability".
But if you pressed me, I would be forced to admit that there really is little point in the exercise.
The earlier point about the abilities of PF vs Admin Shuttles is understood.
The only mitgating factor is Service Dates. Admin Shuttles are available much earlier than PF's...and the idea was to allow for the ability to deploy personnel on planet with out risking a star ship.
Too bad in my opinion, as it eliminates a number of interesting role playing situations that such "small boat actions" now can't be done until PF's are invented. And since the Federation doesnt operat PF's, It would seem the Federation will not be able to match such a capabilty of the Coalition Powers.
Jeff, chek out the skiffs in one fo the CL's. I forget wihich one.
Robert, Yeah, I remember the skiffs, but they are not assigned to starships as part of the small boat allotment.
Skiffs (especially the security skiff, could (I think) perform the insertion mission (although I don't recall anyone actually proposing it as a mission) the point of this thread was to expand the roles of the Admin Shuttles in SFB.
I guess it was just a bad idea...
Jeff Wile:
I think you are fixated on something and do not realize it.
Yes, there were small boat operations during World War II, and in all previous wars where there was a seacoast or significant river, and in all wars since where there was a seacoast or significant rivers.
But you have to review circumstance and capabilities.
By and large small boat forces did not attack major harbors (the raid on St Naizaire and the Normandie dock being one of the significant exceptions).
So the "scenario" you are looking for is that a Cruiser has spotted some sort of installation. This installation has a blind side from which it can be approached. For whatever reason, it is desireable to take the installation by assault, but the ship does not have enough transporters to put enough marines down in one lift to have any reasonable chance of accomplishing this. So it appears to depart, circling into the blind spot to launch its shuttles loaded with troops. The ship then comes back into view of the installation, and perhaps moves off somewhat as if looking at something else. This keeps the attention of the installation focused on the ship as the shuttles approach from the blind side. When the shuttles are in position, the ship "moves off", i.e., conveys an impression that whatever reason brought it to this location has been satisfied and it is leaving, perhaps it bounces a distress call from a freighter off a nearby asteroid to intercepted by the installation and make it seem that it is rushing off to the freighter's assistance. An hour or so later, after the installation has had time to sink back down to 'business as usual', the shuttles come around the curve of whatever was creating the blind spot, flying NoP (Nape of the Plant) or NoA (Nape of the Asteroid) flight profiles to get as close as possible before grounding to deliver their assault squads. This happens when the enemy defense is at a low point (enemy is relieved that the cruiser did not find them, time has passed and the sense of security has grown, meaning they do not react as quickly to the sudden appearance of the raid as they should).
But you are not going to pull this off against a planet that has a planet's worth of defenders (i.e., a defense battalion). Principally because the shuttles simply lack the speed, acceleration, and durability to accomplish it before being spotted and potted. They just cannot get close enough under constant observation due to those limitations.
And note that all the above is assuming the standard admins that are generally going to be carried by a normal ship. It is always possible that at some future date (and for GURPS uses) a special "stealth" insertion shuttle will show up. But they will be VERY RARE, VERY EXPENSIVE, and require SPECIALLY TRAINED crews to operate them and only have a VERY LIMITED capacity, i.e., probably limited to only one boarding party sized group of passengers (a Prime Team) or five spaces of cargo.
Another option might be similar to the Normandie Dock Raid. You find some installation that is supported by frequent shuttle convoy operations. You bushwack one of these, being very good and knocking out the shuttles before they can get off a message. Then you insert your own shuttles as the convoy.
Note that the Normandie raid depended on delaying the German reaction by making them think the raiders were a German coastal convoy until the raiders could get as close as possible before starting the dash for the dock.
Steve Petrick:
Ok. I admit that I was trying to illustrate an imagined ability for the Admin shuttles beyond their normal operating envelope.
At the point where I started this, it just seemed reasonable (at least to me!).
So planetary raids or "stealth" approaches with the intent to land ground forces is not an option.
As I said on Saturday, I guess it was just a bad idea. Sorry for bringing it up.
Jeff Wile:
Uhm, nothing to be sorry about. Your just in a situation where it is not likely that (for example) Al Qaida is going to sneak a battalion of troops into New York Harbor on a flotilla of speed boats.
They might do it on a freighter (essentially to do as much damage as they could to the dockyards).
Detection is just a whole different thing than it was back when Napoleon slipped a couple thousand troops into Ireland.
OK!
Thank you.
Well, back to the drawing board...!
J___.0 BACKFEEDING
J___.01 Preamble: In Y140, the Federation realised that the APR array of the Klingon D7 placed the Federation CA in a lousey situation and placed a tender for a solution to the power based shortcommings of the Constitution class cruiser.
The Federation met the shortcommings with the Y165 introduction of APRs in the "plus" refit before the solution of backfeed was developed and thus backfeeding never reached implimentation.
The system developed was fairly simple to explain but technically very complex to develop and thus the first working prototype did not occour until Y173. Backfeeding gains its name from the fact that suicide shuttles and wild weasels need to be fed power to opperate where as the backfeed shuttle actually pumps it's own power into the capasitor grid of the ship in whose shuttle bay; the Admin shuttle sits.
J___.1 Limitations
J___.11 A shuttle that is to back feed is under certain limitations which are listed as follows.
• The shuttle will need to conect via cables into the power grid of the ships phaser capasitors and this requires one deckcrew action to connect ( and indeed one to disconect ) and only one deck crew may work at that task at a time.
• The entire power system of the shuttle is directed towards both the passing on of power to the ship and "rectifying & amplifying" said power to the ship, thus the shuttle can not move, opperate the limited lab capsity of run internal computers ( or even opperate life support so the hatch must be kept open so a deck crew member can "turn off" the shuttle enginesd when the power is no longer needed ).
• The shuttle can not be readied for any other purpose whilst engaging in or being prepared for ( or retired from ) the opperation of back feeding. Also note that a shuttle need a deck crew action to be retured to normal opperating standards.
• Only Admin and MRS shuttles were ever fitted with the correct conector points to allow for back feeding.
• The shuttle must be undamaged in order to engage in backfeeding.
• Only Shuttles of the same race as the ship may be used to backfeed to that ship.
• No shuttle may backfeed in an overcrowded shuttlebay and a backfeeding shuttle does count as an armed shuttle for the purposses of shuttle bay chain reactions.
J___.2 Benefit
J___.21 The effect of tieing a shuttles power output into the ship's phaser capasitor array is that each shuttle shall pump 0.5 points of power into the capasitor each turn.
This in turn frees up the regular power systems perform other tasks.
J___.3 Adoption
J___.31 After the Federation introduced the system, the Orions copied it the next year (Y174) and all other races that used Admin or MRS shuttle adopted it the the year after that (Y175), but since the Fwederation felt nio need to step beyond the prototype, all this is conjecture.
Design Notes
I would be willing to lower the energy output of the each shuttle to 0.25 if the shuttle phaser holds more incommon with a fighter Ph-G than a ship's Ph-3.
I would also be willing to see a BPV charge for this improvement to shuttles but I feel that the drawback of being unable to use the shuttle for any other purpose even on the turn before and the turn after the shuttle is adding power to the grid, coupled with the fact that the power can only be used to recharge phaser capasitors, should be enough to not need a BPV price tag.
OK - interesting idea. This one is actually more feasible than most ideas posted here. I would, however, limit this to a Legendary Chief Engineer function only and would add that is counts as an Armed Shuttle for purposes of (D12.0). I would also have the Shuttle provide one full point of power (has power for movement, life support and a ph-3 so...).
This would make it an interesting LCE function as the +4 power (G22.43) requires their full attention - this would require a 1 turn set-up, but thereafter run on its own.