Archive through December 05, 2005
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Archive through December 05, 2005
This ship is close to what I'm envisioning as a mainline cruiser: http://www.crawfordeducationgroup.com/sfb/ssd/federation/XCM3.gif
To be true to my above stated design statement you would have to take the same ship, up it to 36-40 warp and increase its MC to 1.
Tos, movement cost is not used as a BPv modifier. If I can judge the published designs move cost is related to mass.
Therefore I think BPV issues need other solutions.
I guess It would be good if I too showed what I think a Fed CA would look like. Maybe someone got a temporary spot for a 35Kb SSD on his webpage?
Instead of going through and reading everything, im gonna make a couple of suggestions and someone can tell me if any have already been discussed 
One idea would be weapons enhancements. For example, extend overload range and extend weapons ranges. A simple idea would be to double all range numbers for weapons when X2 ships go up against X1 or lower tech. So instead of a 6-8 on a phaser 1, it becomes 12-16. Instead of 5-8 on a disruptor, 10-16. But when x2 ships go against each other, they can use the standard weapons charts. Or manybe not double the range but double the damage. OR BOTH (I know thats probably too crazy)
Maybe even when an X2 ship goes against anything X1 or lower it gets double movement whenever it moves. Perhaps double sheilds as well.
This would make X2 ships be extremely powerful without trying to overload them with super extra abilities.
You could still place more weapons on the ships, create some other nifty X2 stuff that would be new things added.
Daniel,
Those are interesting ideas, but probably broken ones. For example, the extended overload range was a HUGE factor in what made the old Supplement 2 X2 ships unplayable. Double movement is probably a no-no, too. Still, keep tossing out ideas. Might be best if you can tell us in general terms what you think an X2 ship should be. For example, here's what I think (and you don't have to agree, it's just a synopsis).
I think X2, at least early on in Y205, should focus on being more flexible, rather than just more powerful. X1 ships were pure warships, made to fight a series of highly dangerous opponents. X2 ships would operate at first during the Trade Wars, and would need to be fast, multi-purpose ships. So, to me, an X2 cruiser has neat stuff on it, but in proportions more like the pre-GW ships did. Quality over quantity, sort of. New phasers and weapons, new protective abilities and some other nifty stuff in smaller quantities makes them still dangerous, but not the fighting machines X1 were.
That's my view; your mileage may vary!
One idea would be weapons enhancements. For example, extend overload range and extend weapons ranges. A simple idea would be to double all range numbers for weapons when X2 ships go up against X1 or lower tech. So instead of a 6-8 on a phaser 1, it becomes 12-16. Instead of 5-8 on a disruptor, 10-16. But when x2 ships go against each other, they can use the standard weapons charts. Or manybe not double the range but double the damage. OR BOTH (I know thats probably too crazy)
Maybe even when an X2 ship goes against anything X1 or lower it gets double movement whenever it moves. Perhaps double sheilds as well.
This would make X2 ships be extremely powerful without trying to overload them with super extra abilities.
You could still place more weapons on the ships, create some other nifty X2 stuff that would be new things added.
The trouble with this is that it violates the dictate from SVC that X2 plays nice with GW ships.
What we've come up with is that X2 overloaded heavies could have longer range but would have the BPV of an ubership with just extended overload and we'ld like to have S-bridge and ASIF and Full X-Aegis and the ability to HET on impulse #1 more than the extended overload range...who wants a one trick pony anyway!?!
That's not to say that X2 doesn't have longer range weapons, just look at where the sweet spot is for the Ph-5!
By keeping the effective range of phasers at or within and the overload range of heavies still at; R8, we force X2 ships to take a gamble by moving to R8 or less to fight which then gives GW ships half a chance. A Fed CB and NCL+ or a Klingon D7W and D7K, really ought be able to give an XCA a bit of a tough time and be a kybosh for XDD machinations toward the planet they're defending.
I think X2, at least early on in Y205, should focus on being more flexible, rather than just more powerful. X1 ships were pure warships, made to fight a series of highly dangerous opponents. X2 ships would operate at first during the Trade Wars, and would need to be fast, multi-purpose ships. So, to me, an X2 cruiser has neat stuff on it, but in proportions more like the pre-GW ships did. Quality over quantity, sort of. New phasers and weapons, new protective abilities and some other nifty stuff in smaller quantities makes them still dangerous, but not the fighting machines X1 were.
That's almost exactly where I stand except I'ld add that X2 is also an outworking of huge R&D budgets pumped into ship design during the GW, ISC Pas' and Andro Invasion and therefore can not help to be better than X1 ships. It's such a pitty the Andro were defeated in Y202 and these ships didn't reach fruition until Y205 as they really are uberschiffs that would have mide life hell for the Andro.
Without such a statement it looks like one is saying that X2 should be "X1R The Backwater Ships".
Well, if SVC says that X2 must play nice with GW ships then my idea is out the window But then again, how "nicely" does an X1 ship play with GW ships?
I was just trying to think of a way to make them more powerful without having to come up with a completely new set of weapons systems. Maybe some new systems could be added per race.
I guess what I need to know is what do the X2 ships have to do? I mean, is there the Xorkalian (sp?) threat? Will these ships be in respone to them (potentially meaning different tactics/weapons/etc) or will there be other things that they will have to do.
If X2 ships are going to be something other than "stronger varieties of GW ships" then there needs to be something that spurs the change in a different direction. Maybe the Xorkalians cause the change. Maybe one of the local races gets a big jump in tech that requires adaptation by the rest of the universe. Maybe more tholians/seltorians show up in bigger numbres causing more of a need to deal with webs.
I think we have to look at the cause of the change before we actually make the changes.
Answer; better after the CL23 changes.
X2 will deal with.
The trade wars.
Recapturing lost worlds (thanks to the ISCs)
Xorks.
Although not exactly in that order.
Since Xorks will be tough and trade wars will be restrictive we'll be looking for ships with refit-room.
X2 ships arn't different from GW ships so much as a return to MY ships. Galactic Peace ( which is a relative term ) allows for ships to be designed around being all thinks to all people. Just think better than X1 but more like MY and you'll get X2.
Since I dont have CL23 handy, I can assume that retaking worlds from the ISC would mean dealing with the ISC and pushing them back.
With the other two, I would need a little more history on what the trade wars would mean to the universe... ie what makes it big enough to warrant new classes of ships.
And Xorks, well, I dont know anything except they are supposed to be bad mama jamas.
To me, I would need to know more about the history before I could fashion a guess as to what ship designers would do in those situations.
Daniel: That depends alot on how the Trade Wars concept changes (or what replaces it). The original idea was for big neutral zones and small treaty regulated fleets but that was only to force an endless stream of meaningless duels.
I was one of the few that liked the Trade Wars concept. I like playing scenarios where victory does not necessarily require simply exploding the opponent. The Trade Wars with its supposed focus on producing revenue from the expanded neutral zones seemed ideal for that style of scenario. Consider a situation where the X2 ship needs to change option systems to the correct mix of cargo and cargo delivery systems, instead of simply loading up on weapons and power. But I have no way of knowing if future published versions of X2 will go in that direction.
CMC, email me your SSD and I'll post it on my webspace.
A lot of what you guys have been talking about runs afoul of what SVC HAS said about X2.
SVC intends that Standard, non-X technology will survive well into the Y200's. Any talk of standard-tech irrelevance is therefore itself irrelevant. By definition, standard-tech ships are going to continue in useful service.
Instead of looking into the wrong end of the telescope and pronouncing old-tech ships to be useless, a reality must be defined where standard-tech ships are the right tool for the right job (or the only tool).
The second definite SVC desire concerning X2 goes hand-in-hand with the first. A given BPV-amount of Standard-tech ships *MUST* be able to engage equal BPV of X2 with about a 50-50 chance of victory (subtracting external factors and player skill from the equation, natually).
Veterans of this board's X2 discussion refer to this as X2 "playing nice" with standard tech.
For example of "not playing nice", consider equal BPV of EY-tech and X1-tech some time.
Many enhancements from Commander's X2 are therefore out of the running, such as extended overload ranges and 2:1 specific sheild reinforcement.
Many people come to the X2 table with power-fantasies in their heads, but these two point of reference from SVC by themselves impose powerful restraints on how much power-fantasy X2 can be allowed.
Voice of sobriety as always, John.
I can think back to the days when I thought X2 would immediately outclass all pre-X tech and render all the old fleets obsolete with the launch of the first XCAs (in much the same way the HMS Dreadnought did with pre-dreadnought battleships).
I'm glad I was set straight on that.
I like the thought of having several generations of technology fighting side-by-side or against each other. I like the idea that they each stand a chance against each other. I like the realistic notion of war-worn nations holding on to "elderly" warships because they not only save money but they also still serve a useful purpose.
I like a lot of the interesting ideas people have proposed for X2, XP, X1, etc. even if I don't agree with them. There's a lot of creativity within this group, even when sometimes it's just plain screwy.
This makes the Star Fleet Universe just that much wider.
Since I dont have CL23 handy, I can assume that retaking worlds from the ISC would mean dealing with the ISC and pushing them back.
Sorry about not being more plain, we don't really need to push the ISC back because to some extent the Andro did it for us.
But then not listed ( but still possible ) would be hunting down remanant Andro units. Y205 and possibly Y206 might well have a number of Andro still causing problems...although it'll be pretty rare.
Note that CL23 didn't change the X1 timeline one iota. You could check out the timeline in GPD or A3.3 and concern yourself with what Y168-204 means to the period Y205-225.
With the other two, I would need a little more history on what the trade wars would mean to the universe... ie what makes it big enough to warrant new classes of ships.
I'm not sure I follow the wording, new classes of ships or new technologies???
If new technologies fit better on new classes then that is what would cause the new classes to be built.
I think what you're asking is, why would the TRADE WARS cause X2 to be needed.
And the answer is the trade wars by themselves don't, but since the varrious empires have X2 from the money they flushed into R&D during the GW, ISC Pasification, Andro Invasion, they'll just happen to have a few yards that can build X2 ships so why not divert the money one has to reconsitiute the fleet to the ships that can quite simply do X, Y & Z better than even an X1 vessel.
When you stack up an Fed XFF and a CLa+ at monster hunting, the Probe Drones and S-Bridge allow the XFF to gather the same amount of information at a much safer range...and costs slightly more to build and has a similar level of firepower and costs less to man.
On the other hand an XFF with just three Ph-5s (and room for a refit) can't take risks on internals the way a CLa+ can (wow, I can't beleive I just said that). But with phonominal shields ( in this price range ) and legendary EW and BTTY power up the wazoo; the XFF is actually hard to inflict internals on.
So you let the XFF be the front line partol ship (as FFs have done for far too many decades in peace and war) and you either use the CLa+ for something else useful ( will sending a hospital ship to a formally held colony convince them to rejoin your empire!?! ) or you stack it into your ten ship "core world defense fleet" (where slower speeds are offset by shorter distances) where she can make battle speed, hurl proxy photons and drag cripples to safty or you sell it to one of those newly independant colony worlds for planetary defense where the fact that she can't move like an XFF doesn't mean so much.
Even matching a NCLa+ against an XFF (where the NCLa+ has an advantage in photons (even with X2 24 point photons) the XFF is better at things like patrols and monster hunting and rescuing freighters and rescueing warships, while the NCLa+ is better at the "come any closer to my planet and I'll murderalize ya" missions.
Horses for coarses and so the empires will build X2 ships and farm out the GW ships to neutral purchasers to create debt mitigation.
Brodie, Tnx! I'll send you a file the coming week.
The start of X2 ships:
Have anyone noticed how horribly overcrewed the X1 ships are? Compared to the ships they are based on they range from being 20% (Feds) to 50%(Tholians) owercrowded. This being another reason these ships can't have outstanding crews; serving onboard X1 ships would appear even less appealing than serving on Klingon Penal ships!
This is a design flaw of Mod X1 really. (yeah, even SVC can make mistakes, and in this case it was to assume new tech requires more manpower to crew and maintain. That is contrary to how it works inn RL.)
But instead of go over the entire X1 module and make a new version, we can use its flaws as base for X2!
So, the Hulls the X1 ships are based on are at the limit, and are too owercrowded to boot.
I Consider the X1 ships as quick fixes to get more combat power during a time of great need (Mid GW). Then going by how it works in real life the work on designing replacements would start about the time the X1 ships enter start their predelivery trials.
This design of NEW ships would take time, as it usually does. (In RL in any case)
By the time the Andros appear they would have made progress, but the Andro threat would change everything (the threat forced everyone to cooperate to just mention one thing).
And since the military buy stuff designed to fight future threats, that would be the X Andros.
Then some smart people discover the RTN, and the Andros are defeated before the X2 ships enter service.
(This is a classic: Take the F-22 that just has entered service for example, it is built to dominate the skies over central Europe in WWIII!)
Still a replacement for the Pre-Andro ships are needed, and the X2 production has just started.
This is my 2 c
Quote:12/1/05 10:50AM movement cost is not used as a BPv modifier.
This is a silly statement. Picture a Fed BT, change its movement cost from 1.5 to 1. Does it become more effective in combat? Picture a Kzinti Battle Tug. Change its MC to 1.5. Does it become less effective in combat? Picture a WE. Change its MC to 0.5. Does it become more effective in combat? Movement cost most certainly effects a units combat effectiveness, and therefore its correct BPV.
No, you are missing my point, Tos. I am not saying it won't have an impact on Bpv, merely that is seems movecost is not to used by ADB for the purpose of balancing ships.
The Tug is a good example. When it carries a pod its mass, as a pod+ship unit, increases and so does it's move cost. DNs too have high move cost, but they are also physically bigger than CAs.
I am suggesting you should try other means of balanicng your design, in any case if you want to have a chance at having them published.
There is a sweet spot. Too low a MC and the ship will never have any reason not to move speed 31. Too high a MC and players will complain X2 is worse than X1. It might be nice to say the sweet spot is 42 warp on a MC=1 ship, but neither you nor I know where the sweet spot is. At the begining stages, where we are now, a little experimentation is in order. Once we set a standard we are stuck with it. Lets not make assumptions.
Quote:Too low a MC and the ship will never have any reason not to move speed 31.
Not if you don't have excessive amounts of warp you won't. There's no reason to assume that X2 must have the same or more excess power than X1. Personally, I rather prefer less, with less weapons to use it up.
You will get no argument from me, but I imagine few others will entertain X2 having noticably less warp than X1. That said, the statement still holds. If you reduced the MC of the Klingon D5L to 0.5 it would fly faster.
Quote:There's no reason to assume that X2 must have the same or more excess power than X1
I think there is a need: the strategic speed increase over X1 would require more powerful warp engines.
But, perhaps X2 ships, with their huge warp engines, don't need APRs or AWRs at all?
Or, they could be included in a post-Xork refit, like the Fed DDs before the General War?
A CAX with 40 warp, 4 impulse, and 4 APR has 48 power.
A XCA with 48 warp, 4 impulse, and no APR has 52 power.
That's not a huge increase. Make the ASIF cost a point to power, and 1.5 points to power a ph-5 instead of 1 for a ph-1, and you have roughly the same power curve as an X1 ship.
There may be a need for more warp, but justifying an increase to strategic speed is not one of them.
A different assumption could be made for X2 ships. The new designs are more effective in forming a warp bubble so need less warp and have a lower MC. I would suggest the CA equivalent is more along the lines of an XCM with an MC of 2/3 rds.
As an example: X1 Module (R8.205) Orion LX. ",but with good option mount selection can deat any other FFX and fry most light cruisers." BPV is 110 without the 4 option mounts and it is an SC4 MC 1/3 ship.
Quote:Since I dont have CL23 handy, I can assume that retaking worlds from the ISC would mean dealing with the ISC and pushing them back.
You can find what CL23 does to X1 in the errata section of this BBS.
Also, look in the discussion thread "X2 library" in the X-files.
One major change: eliminate OL phasers.
Other changes: fast-load weapons no longer misfire.
Quote:With the other two, I would need a little more history on what the trade wars would mean to the universe... ie what makes it big enough to warrant new classes of ships.
History of the Galaxy, Part 1
Y202 - Operation Unity ends. After 35 years of constant warfare (sometimes as enemies, sometimes as allies), the galaxy is at peace.
However, all of the empires are suffering from economic exhaustion. By necessity, the borders have shrunken down to a defendable size, opening up huge neutral zones where the empires' outer colonies were.
Among these colonies, you can find the full range of emotions from outright hostility to total loyalty. But, what they all have in common is a lack of defense which used to be provided by the major empire.
The wide neutral zones create a "wild west" and usher in The Golden Age of Pirates.
Empires try to negotiate with the colonies for various trade rights (minerals, orbital outpost rights, various luxury items, etc.), and coloinies try to negotiate with the Empires to get their own defensive materials (bomber bases, convoy escorts, etc.) The full range of negoiation tactics can be seen, from "I'll make you an offer you can't refuse", to "we'll give you a war-surplus NCL and 6 light bombers if you allow us to buy dilithium, and we'll throw in two FFs if you can give us 50 green slave women".
The other problem the empires face is that the war cruisers are all 20-30 years old at this point, and their maintenance cost is becoming a real problem. Some are turned into museums, others are scrapped, and others are sold to colonies who are happy to have them for their own local defense. The critical problem is that this is also affecting the X1 ships, but no empire is willing to sell those.
Y205 - the empires have the following problems to solve:
1) How to project power when the bulk of your fleet is being mothballed, including your NCLs and X1 squadrons?
2) How to maintain prestege among the neutral zone colonies when they're getting NCLs for their own defense?
3) How to build a new fleet that will have a cheaper build cost now and a cheaper maintenance cost later?
4) How can we be sure that the Andromedans aren't coming back?
5) And what's to prevent the Lyrans/Kzintis from fighting each other again as soon as their fleets build up?
Y205 - The first X2 ships are built.
To answer 1), X2 ships have a faster strategic speed than X1 ships. To do this, XCAs have bigger warp engines than CXs. 48 vs. 40.
To answer 2), An X2 ship should have the combat power to be an even match against 2 GW ships of the same size.
XCAs have BPVs near 300.
XCLs have BPVs near 250.
XDDs have BPVs near 200.
XFFs have BPVs near 150.
To answer 3), An X2 ship would use new technology to save on cost. Where an X1 Fed CX needed 14 ph-1s, an X2 Fed XCA could use 8 ph-5s. If shield technology is at its limits, improve the survivability in other ways, such as the ASIF (advanced structrual integrity field)
To answer 4), nobody knows. Therefore, X2 cruisers (or all X2 ships) must have a way of detecting RTN nodes on their own. Without the invention of the Special Bridge, this would have required an expensive scout channel on all XCAs.
To answer 5), The Federation convinced the empires to sign the Galactic Treaty of Washington in Y204, which limited the size of fleets and ships. While the Feds truly believed this would bring peace, some of the other empires saw this simply a rest between wars.
Y225 - the Xorks invade. But that's 20 years after the first X2 ships are built, so nothing about the Xorks should be considered in X2's designs.
Edit: This post was made before reading the last two posts in this thread.