I'll chime in here with regards to colonies self defense.

As a member of an Empire there is little a colony can to do defend it's self against a concertaed attack. They have two things they can do. Have enough defenses to make sure they aren't a pushover. If it's too easy to take then they will be taken. And two, hold out long enough for help to arrive. Short of having a BATTS or SB you are not going to be able to stand indefinately against even a squadron level attack.

DZ independants will have no hope of outside assistance. A few might get together and have a mutual assistance pact against run of the mill pirating and space monsters. But in the face of a full on attack they will fall. The attacker is in no hurry because no help is coming. Instead of having to capture a system in hours they can take days.

To build extensive defenses will require resources few systems will have. Dylithium doesn't grow just anywhere (which is why it's so expensive a material). Some nearby colonies might shuttle some materials in trade but most colonies will be short of suppies or building of world defenses (bombers etc.) So, I don't think any DZ planets will have major defenses during the time of the Andro war. After that when pirates go legit and all you might see some stronger independant systems because the pirate has access to the supplies they need. BY Y205+ there might be some actually building small ships and MB's (not BATTS and SB's though).

Most colonies of note will have been captured by the enemy and raped for all they got. Most will have to subsist on what they can find on the planet which has had it's defenses destroyed (and replaced by the enemies own systems then later removed or scuttled or destroyed again). Some colonies will simply die with no survivors or either the original enemy assault or after years of stuggling.

The Klingons, given enough time, are not going to have left any colony untouched (same for the Romulans). When they pull out of the area they will remove all they can. The Andromedans aren't going to settle on many systems but will probably visit most, take samples (dirt, plants, animals, people, etc.) and move on; settling on only the most stratigic worlds and expecting to go back to the other at some future time.

There might be the occasional fast talking governor that, after being abandoned by his own empire, manages to strike a deal with the new forces that come to town. The sad thing is that these worlds would be the most attractive targets to the Andromedans. It would also take a lot of quick action to preserve their system when the enemies pull out. It is in the interest of the enemie not to leave behind exploitable resources to be used against them.

As a result, by the time the Andros are pushed out 100% of the worlds are in poor condition, not to mention the amount of violations of the pricipals of the Prime Directive involved!

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 03:49 pm: Edit

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Question for the F&E players: What is a PDU? How many credits does it take to purchase a PDU? How many credits does a small colony produce? How many credits does controlling a sector produce? Ultimately, how many years would it take for an independent colony with production equal to a barren sector to build a PDU?

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:04 pm: Edit

So an EP is about 30 BPV in ground bases or fighters. How many EP does an empty sector produce a year?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Be careful because EP doesn't translate purely as equipement that can be messured in BPV. EP involves other things such as people, peoples time and labor and such. A fighter base costs more than just the raw equipement and BPV is a factor of it's capability in combat.

So only use such comparisons as a very rough guide. They might not translate from one unit to another.

By Dale Lloyd Fields (Dylkha) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:31 pm: Edit

At a wartime economy, a regular province produces 4 EP a year (peacetime 2 EP). Provinces are usually between 3-6 hexes with most of them being 5. Each hex is 500 parsecs in diameter in each direction.

It should also be noted that the heavy industrial worlds (the Minor and Major planets in F&E) produce 6 and 10 EP a year at wartime levels. With the advent of X-technology they get 40% (?) bonuses to their production. However, the non-industrial worlds (those making up the "empty" provinces) get no such bonus.

By Dale Lloyd Fields (Dylkha) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Second Loren's comments but you do got to start somewhere.

As an addendum, I also seem to remember that the cost of the first PDU on an otherwise empty planet is larger than subsequent ones (presumably getting supply chains and such set up) if the planet makes the PDU itself. Was it 8 EP (Heavy Cruiser cost) just for the first ground base (fighters additional)? Someone with their rulebook handy should look it up. At one point the exact SFB definition of an F&E PDU was made (ground troops, sensor stations, and other SFB stuff I don't know about). Unfortunately, I don't know where that definition was posted and I don't know what it listed.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Tos,

For purposes of this discussion I think we are dealing with provinces and planets that are not connected by a supply grid to the capital hex. This is a partial supply grid (413.4) and must include a planet. Each economic point can support 5 ships and replace 12 fighters. Then there are rules on capturing and controlling provinces and devastating planets, which affects EPs. The F&E Andro rules aren’t written so I don’t know how their movement through a province affects EP production. I will leave further explanations to those who know how to play F&E

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Tos,

An F&E province produces 2 EP per turn (6 months), a Minor Planet produces 3 EP, and a Major Planet produces 5. Tholia produces 20 EP per turn (the Dyson Sphere) but that is almost their entire income (20 from Tholia and 2 from the province). Planets can be "devastated" by attacking fleets, which basically reduces a Minor to 1 EP per turn and a Major to 2, Tholia to 10. Devastated planets eventually (don't recall how much time it takes) return to full production if they aren't re-devastated at some point.

There are some other factors involved such as peacetime versus wartime and economic exhaustion. An empire at peace has its economy halved (actually, what this really means is that the F&E economy is that portion of the total economy available for military uses, and while at peace the empire is spending less of its overall economy for military purposes and more for other purposes).

After an empire has been at war for a certain number of turns its economy is halved due to "exhaustion" because it has been spending everything it possibly can for military purposes, and this is not sustainable indefinately. I don't recall how long it takes in a wartime economy before you reach exhaustion, but the Federation, due to its superior economic development, can last a bit longer than other powers.

I don't recall ever seeing anything on what percentage of the "total" economy the F&E economy (i.e. available for military use) represents. Even if we had those figures it's not clear they would apply to the post Andro period. They would be the figures for an intact empire. But consider a heavily populated planet with massive industrialization but which has exhausted most of its natural resources, and a mining colony on a mineral-rich world that has little intrinsic production capacity. If space transportation is possible between these two worlds, they are economically strong together. But if the depredations of the Andros have isolated these planets, they are nothing.

We need to look at the F&E stuff for this, but I also think we need to be cautious in how we use it. There are some issues here that only SVC can decide. And I don't think he's really made those decisions yet.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:48 pm: Edit

I think my question has been answered sufficiently. It is not unreasonable to expect a sub-F&E colony detached from the supply grid to produce and support its own defenses simply by reinvesting taxable funds earmarked for the military into local defense. Given enough time, these defenses can be expanded to rather significant levels. If the Andros devastate defensive colonies for fun then we have a problem. If Andros ignore non-threatening fixed defensive forces then 20-years later it will be easier for those colonies to claim independence.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Addendum:

Dale's numbers are twice mine regarding EPs per planet or province because he is answering per year (which is what Tos actually asked about) and I answered per turn, which is 6 months.

My fault for being careless in my answer.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:51 pm: Edit

===EDIT: Oops didn't see Alans more accurate data.===

Now I can see a planet being able to really push to get is own defenses up. That EP from a province is probably tax. Still, I don't see a single devestated colony being able to produce more than one EP per turn for itself.

Remember, there is little or no trade and no Empire to supply rare materials that a lot of technology uses. There is also the factor of lost technologies. Is the data available to all colonies on how to build trans-stators? You can't get transporters, replicators and most systems that use non-electrical energy to work without them.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Hmm, that may be exactly why some many Pirates went legit. I mean, how much would a backpack of dilitheum, a box of a dozen trans-stators and a portable replicator found at your average Yatch dealer be worth to a devestated coloney?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Loren;

I think the data would be available. The crunch would be the lack of materials, and also in many cases the lack of hands-on expertise. I can read a book about how to play the piano. I can read a dozen books. That doesn't mean I can actually play the piano.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 05:44 pm: Edit

It does appear then that a couple of independant planets could combine as some type of province and have the EPs to support a few ships, build planetary defense, and make replacement fighters.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 07:22 pm: Edit

1 PDU takes 3-4 EP. At 1 EP per turn after 20 years (Y186-205) you could have 10-13 PDU. I don't know what that equates to, but it sounds formidable.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:50 pm: Edit

OK, I'm home now and have checked my books. As far as I can tell the Andros did conduct at least two assaults (both unsuccessful) on major power capitals.

In (R3.17) B10 Battleship there is the following information about the Invulnerable:

"B10-4 Invulnerable was never completed, but the boom section was completed and assigned to local defense of the Klinshai system. It was destroyed by the Andromedans in Y188, but was the key to defeating the Andromedan attack on Klinshai."

This is in the ADVANCED MISSIONS rulebook. And in Module X1, the following paragraph is in (R13.200) ISC First-Generation X-Ships:

"The most powerful X-squadron ever fielded was the ISC "Echelon of Judgement" which included one CCX, one CSX, two CLXs, one SCX, and four DDXs. This squadron was able to respond more rapidly and was called home from Klingon territory to (successfully) defend the ISC capital from an attack by two Andromedan Dominators."

This clearly indicates that the Andros did on occasion attack home worlds/capitals, though since both of these attacks were defeated we can safely surmise that an attack on a capital is a nasty thing to attempt even for the Andromedans. But the ISC defense required "the most powerful X-squadron ever fielded" and it strikes me as very likely that a number of non-capital Major Planets did indeed get conquered or very comprehensively trashed by the Andros.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:05 pm: Edit

I'm OK with certain significant planets getting trashed by the Andros, but not conquered. I can't help but think if the Andros were known to exterminate all life on a planet that we would have heard about it before now.

Very scary that the Andros attempted to sack both Klinshai and the ISC in Y188, they must have come on strong. Still, given the Andros limitation of no more than two dis-dev mother ships I don't think they were ever a serious threat to a major homeworld given what little I know of how ugly it is to assault a homeworld in F&E.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:20 pm: Edit

You know, it wouldn't surprise me if the Andros had intended to attack at a later date after building up some more when they encountered the first X-ships and realized they needed to step up the schedule. Then the ISC took over which was butter on the bread and irresistable.

Had they resisted a few years longer they would have been stronger.

Of course they couldn't have foreseen the Fed GSC traveling back in time to inform the Alphas of the RTN. I wonder if they have the Organians to thank for that.

Of course they'd never cop to it.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 06:18 am: Edit

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Very scary that the Andros attempted to sack both Klinshai and the ISC in Y188, they must have come on strong. Still, given the Andros limitation of no more than two dis-dev mother ships I don't think they were ever a serious threat to a major homeworld given what little I know of how ugly it is to assault a homeworld in F&E

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 07:45 am: Edit

Worlds with weak navies will have to rely on a trade cartel to provide the necessary protection, and they will take a big bite out of the profits.
Is that the new name for the Orion Cartel's Protection scam???

An agricultural colony that produced food for export, or a mining colony that produced valuable ores to be processed into finished goods elsewhere, would not meet the first criterion.
What Criterion???
Broken Hill got a public swimming pool about 30 years before most anywhere else you can name. Why because mining means money and money means weird stuff happens. The Argo/Mining planets need ships more than well balanced fully industrialised worlds with good ecconomies.
Very few people are saying that the Indie planets build their own ships ( other than a few people who'ld like to see heavily augmented freighters ). Just that the Indie planets BOUGHT `EM and then maintained them to the best of their abilities ( which wasn't as good as the galactic powers could ).
How many AK47s are floating around the world since the collapse of the soviet block!?! Did those thirdworld dictatorships with `em build them or just buy them and then do a pretty poor job of maintaining them??? So to near ecconomic collapse of most of the galactic powers will force ship out of the hands of empires and into the hand of Indies in a massive wave of cost cutting downsizing and whatever the buzz-word is for selling off all your obsolete stuff is.

And that brings us back to what is still an unsettled point. What percentage of the colonies in the devastated zones possess actual industrial capabilities? What percentage are "barely self sufficient
Isn't that a bit like saying, what percentage of Orion Pirate Raids actually turn into a fair fair fight!?!
SFB isn't about the battle that'll most likely occour, it's about the interesting battles.

Convoys would come to them.
If you don't get the shipment to the purchaser, he puts a stop on the check and you go bust. Someone has to guard shipping against piracy and since the treaty probably prohibits military shiping, that means the Indies need to guard the ships. There are just somethings a POL can't deal with (like a Planet Crusher or an Orion CA) so real warships will be needed but no one wants to kick of GWII. So former Empirial ships with Indie markings will be the vessel providing that service.

As a result, by the time the Andros are pushed out 100% of the worlds are in poor condition
Is there somekind of US perception I don't understand about a Military being expensive.
If a poor person earns a dollar a day, he's got enough money ( assuming he saves 50% ) to buy a gun in about 18 months.
When he shoots you, you'll be just as dead as when shot by an American with a gun bought with a week's pay. This is pure cainsian ecconomics BTW.
So when the Empires are themselves financially crippled they'll gladly take the cash ( or goods or services or raw materials ) offered by Indepent Worlds for their obsolete (read; worthless) and aging (read; were written off the books financially, long ago) vessels.
Remember the value of a warship suddenly drops when war ends and the Andro war just ended so all those ships that were built in excess of general needs and were expected to probably be lost due to attrition during the war will suddenly be superfluous (think of how many fighters were pushed overboard during World War II when carriers recived newer and better replacement aircraft). The Empires can sell a ship for one dollar if they can convince themselves that they were going to give up that ship (due to destructuion) for free!!!...so the price the Empires are selling at can be considered to be a method of contributing back to the ecconomy.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 01:12 pm: Edit

OK,

So the picture that's emerging is of the alpha sector outerworlds is one where the Andros brooked no reistance and backed that policy with a ruthlessness that would warm a Klingon's heart.

We know that the Andros did have dealings with the Orions, so it could be that the Andros completely interdicted spaceflight save for Orions affiliated with them (or tried. Nobody's perfect) The Orions could act act once as spies and trade cartels, informing the Andros of threats and charging black-market prices for goods. Meanwhile the andros exploited the outerworlds for needed resources.

Accepting this as a narrative, the outerwrolds emerge from the Andro boot starved for everything: food, stuff, leadership. And worlds that tried to build defenses are still digging themselves out of the rubble.

In this environemnt, there is enough infrastructure out there to support and re-establishing of supply networks (any region too devastated to support a supply network is too devastated to support its own defenses), but there is not enough left back at the empire home office to assert strong influence.

The outerworlds people are probably tired of changing hands but most would probably be in little position to do anything forceful about an empire moving back in. Operative word "most". Not all.

I don't see the outerworlds as a group as able to force a neutral position for themselves. However, in the post-andro ecovery, they will depend more on each other than the home office. If there's enough money changing hands from commerce over a loose border it's hard to come in and tell the people making that money (and paying some of it TO the home office in taxes) that the party's over. The porous situation becomes self-perpetuation.

Dodging tariffs and taxes is a time-honored answer to increased government intrusion. Enough so that some Orions go "more legit" or "less outlaw" by working as smugglers instead of thieves.

So with money coming in through indistinct borders, the question then becomes maximizing the money (and therefore taxes), which sets the stage for the trade wars.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Mike Raper,

When I was looking for references to Andros attacking capitals, I didn't check R5, so I missed that scenario. But even the scenario seems to indicate that the Andros intended to attack Klinshai.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Alan,

No doubt. Just pointing out they didn't actually make it. Given the paucity of defending ships, I'd say the Klingons were in dire straights, indeed.

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So the picture that's emerging is of the alpha sector outerworlds is one where the Andros brooked no reistance and backed that policy with a ruthlessness that would warm a Klingon's heart.

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By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 04:11 pm: Edit

CL30 indicates that as the Galactic offensive drove out of the Milky Way significant Andro forces were "cut off" from the LMC. My presumption is since there are three routes to the LMC, there are three primary entrances into the Alpha sector. From these points the RTN network would branch out.

(Would make an interesting scenario for the Andros to attack and try to cutoff the galactic forces from the bottom of one of the routes)

The Andro forces before and during OpU would concentrate their attacks on military units (ships, supply points and units, and bases). This strategy doesn't mean they didn't attack planets. See SH221 Target: Rigellax; Objective Unknown. The Andro attack happened in Y188 10 years before the RTN was heavily disrupted.

Andro could achieved control by attacking military targets and by using their ability to appear any time, any where, and attacking whatever they want. I expect they did raid planets. After OpU they became a maurading menace.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Mike,

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They probably did strip or destroy some worlds, but for the most part, conquest of outer territories seems to not be on their agenda, which makes sense if you're the vanguard of an invading army. The job is crush resistance by searching out and destroying the enemy's ability to fight; not destroy every planet you come upon.

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