Topic creation message.

By Matthew J. Francois (Francois42) on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 09:50 am: Edit

I know of the company's dislike of online publishing and availability (and agree with them on a lot of points), but...

First, a question of procedure:
Can the SFBOL XP client save a map? For example, if I set up a scenario, could I then save that map so that others could load it? In order to save time?

If so, would anyone consider it useful to get Cadet SSD's into SFBOL, and setup the Cadet Scenarios (and maybe a few more that we could design to "fill the gaps") so that new players could learn on SFBOL? Maybe even have then available in a "14 day demo" version or something.

-Francois

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:38 pm: Edit

ahhh - nice idea Mr. Francois.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 04:49 pm: Edit

#1) The new cover art is hideous. If this product is re-done, this needs to go first. I really think the D7 vs CA duel should be the point of the cover, as that's what got most people into SFB (I'd guess).

#2) More art within the book. Most RPGs include at least a couple pages of 'flavor art' to get players into the spirit of the universe. This isn't a bad idea for this product, given how much the SFU has diverged from 'franchise Trek'. As to what could get cut to make room? Errr...well, I'm not sure I like the tiny 'cadet cruisers'. Has anyone found them useful? The somewhat-stripped down full sized cruisers work wonders, IMHO. No need to teach someone on craft they will never see again in the game.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 10:28 am: Edit

Xander. I've had pretty good results using the cadet cruisers. They're basically FF/DD size, but without the fractions.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:35 am: Edit

2)

Yuhuhh.


I'm not sure I would have ever learned if I didn't learn with the little cruisers.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:54 am: Edit

I'll echo the 'add all of the cadet cruisers to SFBOL Free Demo Mode' and make it a big point on the package advertising. Finding someone to play against that knows the rules is probably the biggest hurdle.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 07:20 am: Edit

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Quote:

First, a question of procedure:
Can the SFBOL XP client save a map? For example, if I set up a scenario, could I then save that map so that others could load it? In order to save time?

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Quote:

If so, would anyone consider it useful to get Cadet SSD's into SFBOL, and setup the Cadet Scenarios (and maybe a few more that we could design to "fill the gaps") so that new players could learn on SFBOL?

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Quote:

add all of the cadet cruisers to SFBOL Free Demo Mode

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By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 11:35 am: Edit

I don't know how many copies of the cadet book we have, but it will run out eventually. When it does, we may do it as an on-line thing like Jackson does with gurps lite.

No problem with putting the cadet ships into SFBOL. No problem with SFBOL offering free three-month cadet memberships to people who might want to try out the game (limited to cadet level).

More art. Art costs money. Money isn't infinite. Art takes up space. The book is pretty full. We might consider this (if we use the relatively cheap starship graphics I do) in a hard copy. I'd be terrified of file size in an electronic version.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

SVC, I am transcibing F&E2K and R (word). Currently 2K (includes all expansions) takes 2.7Meg with a few diagrams. Section R (through the Orions, up to R10) takes 1.9Meg (no diagrams). So doing the cadets on-line may not be as bad as you think...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 10:11 am: Edit

The problem, Stew, is that PDFs of high-end graphics take huge amounts. Two pages of GMPA that I had to send Jackson for review were over 3megs by themselves due to the art.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 10:58 am: Edit

Yup. I work with academic manuscripts; the Word versions of them are usually around a tenth (or less) the size of the same manuscripts converted to .PDF format. And posting Word docs, while nice and compact, results in documents that are both easy to alter and are not always viewed in the same format (depending on the version of Word, Word Viewer, or whatever other program is used to open them).

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 11:16 am: Edit

Thats why I've started using HTML primarily. I do the document and convert it to HTML and save myself a lot of aggravation. It works pretty well IMO. But I have no idea if it works with PDF's. (Haven't used them)

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit

The only problem with HTML is that you can't embed images. Therefore is requires the user to download an archive file (e.g. zip file) extract it to a directory and then open the HTML file(s). That is one of the the beauties of PDF files.

Paul Franz

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 09:24 am: Edit

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IDEA: reworked Cadet Training manual
RESPONSE: Current plan when CTM runs out of print is to put it on line for free.

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By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 10:37 am: Edit

I own four of them; I've done my part

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit

I own only 2 copies. I need a couple more. :-)

Paul Franz

By William Sanford (Fred) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Still accepting ideas for the new Manual?

By Tom Cleaveland (Cleavet) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 12:41 pm: Edit

My suggestions:

1) Remove all the races that aren't in the Basic Set. The addition of the Lyrans, Hydrans, and ISC really seems like an afterthought. At the very least drop the cadet cruisers for those races, as well as the Orion Cadet Cruiser. After scenario 6 is completed there's no reason to go back to cadet cruisers of any race, with the possible exception of scenario 12. Additional cadet and/or standard cruisers for the non-Basic Set races could be made available on the ADB web site (with a note one their location in the Training Manual)--this would give new players the chance to look at the full SFB product line.

2) The scenarios in CTM are bland. Most are merely variations on "The Duel". Ideas for additional or different scenarios:

A) Teach movement and point-of-turn by having the player do a "starship slolom". A variant might be a "Starship Chinese Downhill" (multiple starships racing/attempting to destroy each other--can you tell I flipped through S1 last night?).

B) Incorporate simplified terrain rules for one or two more terrain types in later iterations of The Duel. "Rescue at Rigel" is a good variant for The Duel that incorporates a planet. Other possibilities: "Event Horizon": duel over a disabled freighter carrying prototype sensor equipment that's falling toward a black hole; "Cavalry to the Rescue": duel with a pirate in a nebula or asteroid field over a mining station.

C) Link the scenarios into a "Cadet Campaign"; individual scenarios give you a scenario score. The total of your scores gives you a final rank upon "Graduation".

3) In my opinion, the title "Cadet Training Manual" is weaker than it should be. The title should suggest a goal, not a starting point. I suggest "Star Fleet Battles: Captain's Training Manual" as a stronger alternative. The use of the term "Cadet" is fine in the text, though.

4) Two cardstock maps are included in the game, but all the scenarios use just one map. I suggest putting charts on one of the cardstock inserts.

5) Each section of the CTM includes rules that add to the total rules set, or modify or replace chunks of the ruleset. This layout, though good for introductory purposes, makes the CTM hard to use as a reference. I suggest adding a table of contents, with a capsule summary of each section's rules, and possibly an index.

Tom C.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Not sure what we'll do. We sold out of CTM and have been too busy to put it on the site, and the Kyocera means we might reprint it. Or not. Definitely worth considering ideas.

Tom-1: no, we need all the races to show people the game.

Tom-2: maybe. That could only be done in the case of a major rewrite makover and could be difficult. The scenarios ARE SUPPOSED to be bland as the players have enough to learn.

Tom-3: Dunno. It's always been called that.

Tom-4: Probably not possible. We have the maps already printed.

Tom-5: Probably doable if we add a few pages to the end.

By Tom Cleaveland (Cleavet) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

1) Understood; my goal here was to free up room for other material as I think 64 pages is the thickest you want to make the book. What was the reasoning behind taking the Tholians out, btw?

How quickly did CTM sell?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 05:43 pm: Edit

We could do more than 64 pages if it was worth doing. The Tholians were removed because the web rules were too complicated. It didn't sell great but ok.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 06:19 pm: Edit

I wouldn't add any rules to it, except maybe some more Cadet ships and a few more scenarios for them. I'd even say reduce the stress on feeding into full SFB and put more stress on selling it as a game for individuals 8 and up. Just put a big COLOURFUL advert page in it for starfleetgames.com and SFBonline.com Or do that on the cover.

I'd also suggest a new strategy. Pick some choice cities and book stores and send a few free copies; ask them to put them in the young adult/sci-fi ssection next to the star trek books to see how well they sell. To order more contact ____.

Only do this with maybe 1 to 4 stores to see if it works.


You may now begin to tell me how stupid an idea this is as book stores don't stock games etc..

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Les: Your idea about picking some book stores and sending freebies is cool, but when we did it, the book stores tossed the books and sent a very stern letter that they don't do that and would have their lawyers get a restraining order if we tried it again.

By Mike Ptak (Norsehound) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

I suppose Bases are also 'too complicated to use' for a cadet game? It could introduce the PH-4, rotation rules, and some other base-specifics.

The fighters were introduced in TCM. How about PFs?

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Interesting, I know about three authors that got their start that way with Vanity books. You did of course Talk to them before you sent the stuff right? Afterall they probably thought you didn't have a copyright for it and they were probably quaking in their boots afraid of Paramount.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 09:58 pm: Edit

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4) Two cardstock maps are included in the game, but all the scenarios use just one map. I suggest putting charts on one of the cardstock inserts.

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We could do more than 64 pages if it was worth doing. The Tholians were removed because the web rules were too complicated. It didn't sell great but ok.

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By Mike Ptak (Norsehound) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 10:22 pm: Edit

I don't think adding double blind rules is a good idea to TCM, mostly because I don't think a lot of people use Blind rules in their SFB games.

The thing about the tholians is that they are known for thier web ability, not pinwheeling. Pinwheeling might be a good way to substitute bases into the cadet enviroment, but for a basic introduction to the tholians web rules are more or less essenital because it's their trademark system.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit

Actually the cadet training manual tends to see a lot of starcastling and overloads would take some of that away, so perhaps overloaded heavy weapon rules should be added.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 11:32 pm: Edit

MJC. Starcastling in CDM??? How? TACs and shield reinforcement aren't covered in the rules?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:00 am: Edit

C5.0 is on Page 42 and D3.0 is on page 43!

By Ben Moldovan (Shadow1) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Sheesh, restraining order for sending free stuff???

That's ridiculous. I think Les must be right about them being afraid of Paramount. Talking to them ahead of time and explaining the license would take care of that problem, hopefully.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 02:21 pm: Edit

MJC. Oh - people actually use those rules to fly the real-sized ships? I've always ever used the rules to fly the cadet ships..once they've mastered them, I move onto the full rules. I guess I never even read that far into the book.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

One of my chief objections to CTM is that it teaches people to play a game that is very close to, but is not quite SFB.

The tactical lessons of CTM are that the best tactics involve flying slowly with lots of reinforcement.

There's an article that I wrote about how I teach SFB to new players.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

A.P.:

Some people move the big ships under those rules...I tend to find that once players have learnt those rules and they go back to the small ships ( usually to play a new race ) they use the notes section of the small EAF to record SSReo which is really good at slowing down the game...the combination of no overloads and SSReo makes for starcastling being a really effective tactic.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 10:02 am: Edit

I've always moved players from the Cadet ships straight to normal SFB. The Cadet ship rules don't have Shield Reinforcement and the problem there is that players often can't spend all their power, even going speed 16. I therefore add DamCon to the ruleset for the Cadet Ships - to add a power decision, albeit a small one, to the mix.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 10:49 pm: Edit

I've done that myself, but the players tend to like SSReo for some reason...go figure!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 03:53 am: Edit

Les: Nothing to do with Paramount. The major book chains simply refuse to stock a book that doesn't come from their own supply line. You can do it with independent stores but not with chains, and these days there just aren't many independent stores left.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 05:14 am: Edit

MJC, why can you not say reinforcement like everyone else?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 05:37 am: Edit

Because I've burned my fingers typing "re-enforcement" too many times.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 11:20 pm: Edit

Talking the full-sized cadet ships...
Why does the ISC cadet cruiser have more weapons than the others? 8 Ph-1 (all in the FA), 2 Pl-S, AND a PPD?!?! No wonder the other 4 ships in the grand melee we did yesterday got spanked.
And to add insult to injury, it's got more power than the others, too. I think the only thing that stands a chance in that book is Hydran, just because it has 9 St-2s. But we were teaching the game to a newbie, so we didn't want to clutter the map with that many attrition units. The Fed dropping all his shuttles over 8 impulses was bad enough.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 07:11 am: Edit

..its all part of the conspiracy to convince new players that the ISC could take over the galaxy and that the Echelon formation actually works...