Several points in no particular order:

I actually like the idea of the ISC giving the Romulans warp. Sure it would be stupid, but I can more easily see the ISC doing it than the Vulcans. I still don't buy it happening, though.

The only way I can see Vulcans doing it is if (as MJC mentioned) there is actually a group of Vulcans that *want* the Romulans to take over the Federation (or at least Vulcan). I doubt such a group would exist, but you never know.

Also, it is pretty much a strong part of SFU canon that no one, including the Vulcans, knew the Romulans were the "missing" Vulcans until Y155 or so. This would seem to undercut the idea of the Romulans getting warp power early from the Vulcans.

If the Romulans get warp technology from anyone but the Klingons, SVC has pretty much said (in the Rom/Fed Anarchist article in CL) that they would not have any "King" conversions, nor any "Hawk" ships. Both developments were direct results of the Klingon technology.

In short, Romulan ships without Klingon influence are not getting any warp mounted weapons. They will all be hull mounted.

The Condor is unequivocally a third generation Romulan ship. Consequently, its design is predicated on Klingon-style warp engines (as are all "Hawk" ships). No Smarba, no Condor.

Another point to keep in mind that was brought out in the Anarchist article. Unless the Romulans get a deal that is equivalent of Smarba, it will take a full decade before they can get a warp fleet up and running. The Klingons did far more than just "give the Romulans warp".

This also applies to a "steal it from a failed Smarba" scenario. Instead of seeing WEs in Y160, it would take until Y170, at the least, to see those WEs appear. Again, not much help if you want to see them get warp earlier, rather than later.

I agree with those above that the best way for the Romulans to get warp power early is for the Gorn raid to have failed. Or, more properly, for the *Romulan* raid to have failed. (After all, the Gorn raid *did* fail.) This would allow them to build warp-refitted "Eagles", then allow them to build new Y-series ships from the ground up.

Again, to repeat something above, if the Romulans self-discover the technology, it is quite likely that they would never develop the "weapons on engines" idea that the Klingons used. So, there would be no "King" variants, no Condor, and no "Hawks". Any such successors to the "Eagles" would be completely clean slate.

Another point to consider: If the Gorn/Romulan raid did fail, and they did develop a warp fleet from that, it is highly probable that they would not have the cloaking (or masking or veiling) device. That device was created to compensate for the lack of warp engines. Had they had a warp fleet to fund, such experimental work would likely have been cancelled, or, at the very least, delayed.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Getting back to the original question, if there was no treaty of Smarba, and if the Romulans had not already gained/been given it otherwised, then I see the following things happening:

- The General War does not happen.

It is the Second Four Powers War instead. It is an open question as to whether the Federation joins the war (making it the Five Powers War), but the Klingons likely do not invade.

- There is a greater chance that the ISC meets the Gorns on a friendly basis.

Since the Romulans can't extend their reach very far, the ISC will likely meet a Gorn exploration vessel, not witness a battle between Gorn and Romulan ships.

As a result, the ISC could end up having good relations with both the Feds and Gorns. The Feds and Gorns will be able to reinforce the ISC conceit that warp power brings peace. The Romulans will also help, as they are violent, but don't have warp power.

If the ISC and Gorns do create an alliance, the Romulans are pretty much permanently screwed. A joint Gorn/ISC (or, better yet, Gorn/ISC/Fed) containment operation to keep the Romulans down would likely keep them out of warp for decades at the least. Maybe even a century or more.

- A Gorn/ISC alliance would probably give the ISC the Carronade.

- The Klingons and Lyrans do not get mauler technology.

- The Tholians do not get photons.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Moreover, the general pace of technological advancement slows. Without a General War to drive innovation, medium and fast drones (and S-torps) are later in coming. Weapons densities such as seen in the CCH, BC and BCH classes are all later in coming. X-technology also. Lyrans take longer to introduce their tri-hulls (but might hit the ground running with power packs installed)

With larger but less-sophisticated fleets, what implications are there for the Andromedan invasion?

Russell, Your Romulan Prime team better avoid genuine Vulcans. A Rom can act "vulcan" enough to pass muster among humans, if they have good self-control and think fast on their feet. Don't think they could fool many actual vulcans for long.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 12:39 pm: Edit

John,

Good point there. Without a full General War, and no follow-on ISC War, the tech would have been slower in coming.

I would say that the implication for the Andromedan Invasion is that the Galactics would have a much harder time of it. I assume the Galactics would still win (story kinda sucks otherwise), but it would be a nastier affair with their slightly "older" ships.

Jim,

Before they could try to cultivate an alliance with the Romulans, the Feds would have to work overtime to pacify the Gorns. If that would even be possible. It would be kinda stupid to throw away a good, strong ally in the hopes of gaining a tenuous one.

Also, the entire Federation delegation would have to be operating at the height of naivete to assume they could have any impact on a cultural imperative that has been carefully cultivated for centuries. (I am not saying it couldn't happen. They just have to be really, really stupid.)

A better bet would be where a single house promises to enact change if given the means to enforce it by the Federation. It would still fail completely, but at least I can more easily believe Federation complicity in that case.

Besides, who wants "FR" ships? Their performance and asthetics would suck. KR ships are just way cool.

By Russell J. Manning (Rjmanning) on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 03:10 pm: Edit

John,

Considering the size of the Federation, I am sure that a Romulan Prime Team could go to a planet near the border such as Sebelia IV or Gordon's Planet; buy a freighter or top of the line space yacht that has a warp engine and take it back to the empire for reverse engineering. All of this could likely be acheived w/o running into any Vulcans.

I also thing there could still be a General War. The history could go like this. Lyrans and Klingons attack the Kzinti. Hydrans Join as usual. Federation see the Hydrans and their ally the Kzinti heading towards a crushing defeat. Fearing a stronger Klingon Empire, the Federation activates the 4th Fleet, go to limited war to help their ally.

Meanwhile, once the Romulans were able to steal warp tech from the Fed's they went on a massive Fleet refit/expansion program. Eager to test their new toys and get revenge for years of blocking their expansion, the Romulans launch an attack against the Gorn.

This attack is much earlier than orginally happens so the Gorns are caught a little flat. i.e. no fighters on bases. They call on their staunch ally the Federation for help. The Fed's, already at limited war over the Kzinti, release the 5th Fleet to help the Gorn.

Both the Klingon and Romulan offensives slow down because of Fed involvement. What started out as quick winnable wars are changing. The Klingons send a representative to the Romulans to suggest a dual massive assault against the Federation. No tech exchange, just coordinated action. The Romulans agree.

It looks somethinkg like this in F&E

T1 - Lryan attack the Kzin
T2 - Klingon attack the Kzin
T3 - Hydrans attack Klingon and Lryan.
T5 - Feds release 4th fleet to help defend Kzin space. Romulans attack the Gorn
T7 - Feds release 5th Fleet to support Gorn
T10 - Klingon and Romulans attack the Federation

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Russell,

Do realize that if the Romulans were to capture a working military engine it will take around a decade for them to build a relevant industry around it (i.e. pumping out WEs and such).

If this is based on a civilian ship rather than a military ship, then the time requirements just went up. Potentially by a good number.

As a result, the Romulans would have to make that raid against the Federation sometime before Y145 in order to be pumping ships out in Y160. (At least.)

Also, don't forget their ship "choices" will be much more limited. No "Kings", no "Hawks", etc. They would likely build analogs of the Hawks around the same time frame, though.

Other than that caveat, your scenario is as workable as any others.

By Russell J. Manning (Rjmanning) on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Mike,

I see your point. To modify, not only do they purchase the working ship, but also get copies of various tech manuals to warp drives (you know the ones Scotty was always reading and are probably taught in most college level classes.) Also, I am not sure it would be such a long time frame. My understanding is that the Roms has a warp program that was raided by the Gorn. Therefore, there must be some specialist who have an understanding about how warp works. This would probably shorten the time needed to reverse engineer it.

Perhaps I should have included some dates in my timeline. I was basing the theft on the Y155 mentioned by other (I think Treaty of Smarba date). The GW starts in fall Y168. That puts the Rom T5 Invasion at around fall Y170. I figured 15 years would be a decent time to reverse engineer and refit the existing fleet.

I also agree no Hawks though that is not a biggie in my opinion, not really fond of them. Too Phallic. I was thinking War Eagle, King Eagle and Snipes as the basic hull types.

[edit for grammer]

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Russell,

The decade timeframe was taken (as I mentioned above) from the Fed/Rom Anarchist article is CL (I forget the #). And it was a decade to start making the ships, not to having a full fleet.

According to the story on the Gorn raid, the researcher who made the breakthrough was cut in half by one of the Gorn raiders. The research backups were presumably destroyed in the rather large nuclear explosion that finished the raid. Following the raid, due to political mechinations, funding for warp research was significantly cut, preventing any chance of quickly recovering the lost research.

As a result, there are no Romulans with any familiarity of warp engines or even warp theory. They have to learn everything (including the theory) from scratch.

With the Smarba deal, the Klingons (presumably) sent over a small army of technicians and engineers to jumpstart the warp industry for the Romulans. The Romulans had to pay for everything, but all of the information and training they needed was provided to them directly by the Klingons. There was no reverse engineering, no false starts, no mistakes. They went from zero to full speed in a year because of the full cooperation they received from the Klingons.

In the case of capturing a ship (or buying a ship), they have to reverse engineer the engines, establish the theory (which is not a trivial point), the painstakingly build their processing and industry from that. This will likely include some mistakes and false starts.

And if the Feds, Orions, or Gorns *ever* find out what they are doing before the Romulans are ready, it will set things back even further. Therefore, much of the initial progress has to be done in secret, which slows things down yet again.

A decade to set up the infrastructure to begin producing WEs, etc. is a very reasonable timeframe, all things considered.

BTW, Smarba was Y158. The first "production" KR was Y159. The first "production" WE was Y160. (By "production" I mean main-line conversion. I don't think any of the ships were actually build, but were instead conversions.)

I would suggest that your theft be no later than Y150, rather than Y155/158. This allows warp conversions to start in Y160 (like with Smarba), giving them a "real" fleet by the time Y170 rolls around.