Archive through May 31, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: 2X Drone Ideas: Archive through May 31, 2005
By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Quote:

So if one of the goals of XP is to put the whole fleet on the same kind of drones, would the bigger X2-specific drones defeat the purpose?

That would rule out some of the earlier proposals, but that might be a good thing.


There's plenty of room in Y205-225 for the Admirals to change their minds and start feild Booster drones and latter type X, XI & XII drones.


Quote:

Once x-ships arrive production of drones will switch to the newer x-drones; in the span of a few years all production of drones would be x-drones.


That really depends on several factors:-
1) RETOOLING; Whether or not the Factories CAN build the NEW X drones thanks to the complications inherent in new technologies ( the government needs to spend XEP on X-drone factories no doubt whether F&E shows this or not and XEP is limited ).
2) RESKILLING; The workers at the factory need to be able to use the new tools to be able to build the X-drones: it's not just a matter of spending a little cash on some shiney new tools.
3) MARKET; If huge numbers of GW ships don't have the XP refit ( possibly even nuetral planets rendered nuetral by the passification ) then those ships will NEED IF & IVF drones and thus the government(s) WILL pay for them and why invest money in development when you can make money hand over fist right now doing things exactly as you are doing them now ( Re US Steel industries ).
4) CLASSIFIED BLUEPRINT; if the governement says you're not "quite" enough you'll be asked to stay back in the IF & IVF production business.
5) COST; If there's only a limited amount of XEP going around you might not be able to grab it and convert your factory to X-tech.

All these factors combine to build IF and IVF supplies for decades after the advent of X1 technologies.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 02:16 am: Edit

As a curiosity, how would you balance things if XP did not receive the ability to use X-drones?

Second question, what if XP did not get to use X drones but did receive a non-X version of the VII with the same specs?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 11:51 am: Edit

Here is the thing, I have recently seen examples of GW era ships launching a disturbing number of drones in one turn. Between SP, Drogues and Remote Control Figthers the number of fast drones one can launch has spiked dramatically. Into this timeline I am rethinking my desire to introduce X-drones to non-X ships.

Is it fair to the current Andros to fight against XP with X-drones?

Is it fair to the current Andros to fight against ships with VIIF (a non-X drone with the same stats as a VII drone) drones?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Tos,

Do you think assigning appropriate Limited/Restricted/General dates to X-drones on non-purebred X-ships will fix the problem?

Most of the disturbing examples come from the ability of low-cost ATUs to launch huge amounts of drones. There are scatterpacks, but they don't produce massive sustained-fire rates.

Perhaps ATUs should simply not be allowed to use X-drones.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit

I think assigning appropriate Limited/Restricted/General dates to X-drones on XP-ships will fix the problem. Non-X/XP should still not be allowed any X-Drone capabilities. X-drones should be purchased separately from other special drones (separate calculation) but must be bought with either force points or ComOps.

If the ship is not carrying X-Shuttles then it will not be able to load X-drones on a scatter pack. XP should be able to buy X-shuttles with either Force points or ComOps.

X-Drones would not become General until well after the Andro war so that level of availability will not affect Andros.

This and a MegaX Pax that has X-Drones restricted to the pack will keep the number of X-Drones down to a minimum and will counter the problem of large waves of X-drones. It will let X-Drones be in play, however limited, and will make when employ them a tactical decision.

========================

Under these rules I think the tactics for X-drones will be simple, send the X-drones in AFTER the wave of regular F-drones. The F-Drones will eat up the enemy defenses and that leaves the door open for the X-drones to do their thing.

XP does not need all X-drones to be nasty effective.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 02:10 pm: Edit

If X-drones are bought separately, how do you figure Limited/restricted %tages?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 02:38 pm: Edit

You do it twice based on the total drone spaces. You probably would figure how many of your spaces could be X-drones first. The figure you special warheads based on the total spaces again (including the X-drones). This way you can put special warheads on some of your x-Drones if you like.

Percentages would paralel racial norms too. Kzinti would normally be able to field a few more X-Drones than others.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 04:45 pm: Edit

...so you're really suggesting that X-drones cannot be bought using CO points.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit

No, you could use either. In each case, those points could be used.

Typically, it would be better to use force points to buy X-Drones. In a BPV battle it doesn't really matter since your maximum is is fixed and it doesn't matter where your stuff comes from. I would work the same as Speed upgrades. Use either way to buy them.

In published scenarios XP ships would probably come with their full allotement of X-Drones (i.e. to their max availability for the Year). Special drone modules would then be bought with ComOps.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Then I'm sot 100% sure what you're proposing.

I'm sorry for the unintended density.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 07:36 pm: Edit

"Do you think assigning appropriate Limited/Restricted/General dates to X-drones on non-purebred X-ships will fix the problem?"

It will help. Help enough? Not sure yet.

If we do put X-drones on fighters we could make them special rail limited drones. Then the X-Megapack can upgrade from +2 drones to +2 special drones.

As a special drone it is easier to justify them not being allowed on scatter packs and drogues too. That I like. XP can have a small number of VII (or VIIF) drones but can only launch them from the racks or fighter special rails.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Quote:

As a curiosity, how would you balance things if XP did not receive the ability to use X-drones?

Second question, what if XP did not get to use X drones but did receive a non-X version of the VII with the same specs?


The Trouble will be the outcry from other races.

If XP ships get uber-drones that arn't X drones then 1) the X ships can't lean on the XP ships and 2) the other races will not get Plamsa-L or and the Hydrans will not get NO COOL DOWN FUsions and the Lyrans will not get no burn-out UIM meaning the drone chuckers are the only races to get anything meaning the a LOT of people will be unhappy.


Quote:

Here is the thing, I have recently seen examples of GW era ships launching a disturbing number of drones in one turn. Between SP, Drogues and Remote Control Figthers the number of fast drones one can launch has spiked dramatically. Into this timeline I am rethinking my desire to introduce X-drones to non-X ships.

Is it fair to the current Andros to fight against XP with X-drones?


In a lot of ways Ph-2s deal with Type VII drones better than one would initially expect.
The ability to launch drones has become less of a problem in recent years but, 1) you only have the BPV for a few options, 2) there hasn't been an increase in drone control rates in a long time.


Quote:

Most of the disturbing examples come from the ability of low-cost ATUs to launch huge amounts of drones. There are scatterpacks, but they don't produce massive sustained-fire rates.


XP ships launching SPs will influence how the XP-fighters work.
XP fighters shouldn't be able to launch X drones unless they are "refitted" (actually built) to XP tech.
So too XP ships need to have shuttles that are refitted with XP tech. That being said; is there a BPV to purchase an X-Admin that is sufficent to differentiate it from Admins...if not, restricting XP-SPs to being luanch from XP ships via an MRX might be worth the effort.


Quote:

You do it twice based on the total drone spaces. You probably would figure how many of your spaces could be X-drones first. The figure you special warheads based on the total spaces again (including the X-drones). This way you can put special warheads on some of your x-Drones if you like.

Percentages would paralel racial norms too. Kzinti would normally be able to field a few more X-Drones than others.


If we keep X-drones as LIMITED for a large number of years then the "Limited = 10%" for all but Kzintis and X ships will leave the total number of uber drones being feilded; very low, and since ADDs and VIF and IF drones are awefully good at killing X1 drones, I don't think GW ships will have too much of a problem.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Megax pax would have X-Rails. I realy thing the F-14 with it four special rails and a megax pax (total six x-drones) would be too many.

However, Tos's idea could work if just two on the megax pax is not enough.

John: Say you have 20 spaces of drones. At restricted level you can have 5 of those be X-drones, and five of your total drones could be restricted modules.

First calculat your number of X-drones then recalculate for special drones ignoring temporarilly that some of the drones are X type.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Loren,

OK, I get it, you have an additional "limited" percentage for X-drones.

What happens when X-drones become only "restricted"? The Kzinit get 50% restricted drones, allowing them to tank up on X-drones and restricted or limited standard drones. The only limit would be available BPV.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

You can't use special drone percentages to buy X-Drones. It's a separate issue.

But you can apply the special modules to X-drones. Such as buying an ECM module. You should be allowed to put that on one of your X-drone frames.

So, no matter what Kzinti would only get 50% X-drones on XP ships.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 01:16 am: Edit

As drone launch capabilities go up there simply isn't the need to additionally improve the XP drone. Increased launch capabilities are already written into the rules (remote control fighters, seeking weapon drogues). Improving the drone any further goes over the balance line and there is no way I want to see the Andro rules rewritten to compensate.

If we go no X-drones on XP what impact will that have on heavy weapon systems galactically?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 01:22 am: Edit

I think that would create disparity for the Kzinti but would have little affect on the rest of the galaxy.

I don't want to, in any way, change the X-drones. Heck, I want them the same for X2 as well.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 03:05 am: Edit

The Kzinti would be disappointed.

No X-drones would tend to work toward a lowering of any improvements plasma races get and in turn reduce heavy weapon improvements across the DF world for balance.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 04:47 am: Edit

Quote:

As drone launch capabilities go up there simply isn't the need to additionally improve the XP drone. Increased launch capabilities are already written into the rules (remote control fighters, seeking weapon drogues). Improving the drone any further goes over the balance line and there is no way I want to see the Andro rules rewritten to compensate.


Again the biggest reason to replace the fire control systems to allow the XP ships to guide drones is to pass control of drones from X ships to XP ships during a mixed battle free up the X-Kzintis to use their full launch rate.
This has a follow on effect in that in a fleet battle the XP plasma ships can control the X-Plasma launched by an X ship that is about to go boom, or an X ship that is about to take SENSOR hit and is controlling enough Plasma and SS to loose some.

Even the Mighty C7 will only have 30 spaces of drones for just 3 Limited drones for 3 Type VII.
Sure that jumps up to 7.5 spaces of drones ( 5 type VIII drones anyone? ) when X-drones become Restricted but again that's not so deadly from a BCH/XP at another BCH/XP or straight up DN.

The number of drones reduces fairly smoothly from west to east, Kzintis 4, Klingons 2, Federation 1, such that those races that have lousey drone defenses won't likely have drone chucking ( historically speaking ) opponents.
So either there is a TRUCKLOAD of Drones & ADDs getting chucked at the X-drone wave or there is a very small drone wave.
Net result is that 2Ph-1s can and still do kill a Type VIII drone and 2Ph-3s have a 25/36 chance of stopping them ( and 3Ph-2s fired as 3Ph-3 will autokill the drones ) nad 2Ph-2 fired as Ph-3s will eat a Type VII drone alive so the non drone chucking races don't have a HUGE problem with X-drones...much more than they do with regular drones.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 04:56 am: Edit

Quote:

No X-drones would tend to work toward a lowering of any improvements plasma races get and in turn reduce heavy weapon improvements across the DF world for balance.


I'm against DF heavies getting improved almost to a one.
Once PLasma and Drones get upgrade the only guys missing out are Tholians, Lyrans and Hydrans, and a No Cool Down on fussions would fit the Hydrans quite well so that just leaves one Major race, the Lyrans who in my oppinion should get the other improvement ( No UIM BURN OUT PENALTY ).

I really don't want to see R40 Photons being hurled around, I want XP to be something different, more compatable with X1 than GWs but not perfectly compatible.
XP should help but the Fleet Captains have to find a way to work around the XP drawbacks in a mixed battle. So I just don't think heavy improvements should be warrented.

I can see why X drones would be technically acheivable and thus would be okay with having drones Xed up and also having ancillary heavies beefed up to keep balance but pur DF Heavies should stay un changed...to make life hard for the fleet captains sitting in their big chairs on the CCXs but also to keep the BPV down.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:01 am: Edit

Yes, if you don't include X-drones in XP, then heavy weapon improvements need to be very restricted, if there are any at all. Personally, as I favor no heavy weapon improvements (aside from the -1 shift from EW), having no X drones on XP suits me fine.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:21 am: Edit

Some have mentioned control channel concerns. X1 drone ships have double control. X1 drones are all ATG or Warp Seeking. I'm not convinced I want a lone Kzinti X1 ship to build up his drone wave so completely that he needs more then 12 on the board while none are close enough to accept self guidance. Remember GX racks can launch non-X drones and non-X drones can transfer control to GW ships. If a massive drone wave is desired it can be accomplished with the proper planning.

Also remember that the first enemy any change we make has to play nice with are the Andros. If something we do is unbalanced vs. the Andros then we can't do it even if it is balanced everywhere else.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit

Tos:

If a massive drone wave is desired it can be accomplished with the proper planning.

I think this is OK because it would take careful planning. And careful plans are easier to disrupt.

Additionally, there is a thing about massive drone waves, when you lose them you lose a lot. Good placement of a couple t-bombs and suddenly half you offensive strike capability goes up in smoke. Andros are so good at placing t-bombs.

With limited X-drones available to the XP ship he takes his chances building a large wave of them using his limited supplies.

Do you really want to chuck all seven of your precious X-drones into one wave, possibly to see it go poof?

Certainly timeing is everything but that then go to what the game is all about. If you take your chances, plan you timing, be crafty and all, you get the big pay off. Kinda like photons.

If X-Drones are not limited then I would share your concern to the N'th degree. Limiting availability solves the problem accross the board I believe. Having XP buy thier X-drones separately also addds to this. Andros should be able to handle it given they will have more BPV to work with. I think that with the introduction of XP the first Andro reaction will be more MWP's from J2.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Quote:

Remember GX racks can launch non-X drones and non-X drones can transfer control to GW ships. If a massive drone wave is desired it can be accomplished with the proper planning.


That negates the idea that as the years pass; technology gets better, which if I understand correctly is the entire reason for XP.


That being said the HUGE drone wave that could be built up by a Kzinti BCX escorted by a GW vessel isn't that much more powerful after the XP control changes have been made.

For every type VII drone the XP ships takes from the BCX; you can expect ONE type IF drone to not be launched by the XP vessel ( perhaps the value is more like 0.85 but 1 is good enough for the illustration ).
Thus you are trading one 12/4/32 drone for one 18/6/32 drone...a gain of 6/2/0!
Even if you palm four such drones off onto the XP vessel the gain is only 24/8/0 or basically an extra type VIII drone in net effect ( or is it two type IFs).
Altering your attack run from 12 Type VII & 6 type IFs to 16 type VII and 2 Type IFs is actually a small increase in firepower (12 x 18/6/32 + 6 x 12/4/32 (288/96/32) => 16 x 18/6/32 + 2 x 12/4/32 (312/104/32)) and is offset by the fact that the XP refit costs BPV.

The key point being that whilst an improvement it's not an overwhelming improvement.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:49 am: Edit

(FD14.214) When an X2 Spearfish drone gets to range one of its target, with the target in the FA, the Spearfish drone is considered to have impacted and damage is scored.

This gives X2 a leaky shield weapon without unbalancing things for the poor NX ships.

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