Sorry for misquoting you, Steve.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 12:59 pm: Edit

I put this question into the CL31 after action topic and SVC said to put into the X topic. I have reposted my question here for discussion.

"The draft XP rules don't address if an XP ship can carry X-Admin shuttles, just an XP ship can not carry an X-MRS.

If one replaces the drone rack(s) with a GX rack then the ship has Type VII drones which can't be put into a NX-Admin SP. I don't know if allowing X-Admin SP's on an XP ship is a problem so I am not suggesting an answer either way."

In (XJ0.0) X-Admin are identical to NX-Admin (speed 6, damage, 6 no chaff). The only option an X-Admin gives over the A-Admin is the ability to launch as a X-drone SP.

Comments?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Joseph, (XJ2.1) makes this clear: "Administrative shuttles on X-Ships are identical to those on non-X ships."

In case you were wondering (XFD7.0) also makes clear: "Only X-ships can prepare a scatter-pack that includes X-drones." Remember to park some non-X drones in the reload storage for your XP ships.

The reason for not allowing an XP ship to launch X scatter packs should be clear: Upgrading one GX rack cheap does not begin to pay for the advantage you would gain by having 12 VII drones on your two pre-scenario prepared SP at WS3.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 09:52 pm: Edit

Tos,

Thanks for the information. I hadn't looked at (XFD7.0).

The XP rules are a draft addition to the X rules so I was seeking information on this (would be a change to XFD7.0). X-Admin shuttles on XP ships. The WS3 could have a restriction of only being allowed to prepare one X-SP, similar to the PFT restriction (S4.13). Even with that restriction it may not be a good idea.

(XFD10.1) covers obtaining standard drones. No refund if exchanged. It also states a GX rack can fire NX drones. The example was type VI instead of Type IX, which I am presuming covers Type I, III, and IV drones also.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Perhaps only X-ships can do X-scatterpacks becayuse they're the only ones able to use X-drones.

It blocks players from transferring X-drones to non-X ships for SP use.

On the other hand, a XP ship with X-drone racks should be able to load a SP with X-drones.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 04:36 pm: Edit

No, it shoudn't. Non-X fightes/bombers/shuttles/PFs cannot carry X-drones.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 05:07 pm: Edit

As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as an X-Admin shuttle. There is no entry for such things. They are just admin shuttles. In fact, based on (R1.F17), all shuttles on X-Ships are actually A-Admin shuttles (unless subbed).

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 05:24 pm: Edit

In addition to having X-Drones on a ship, the ship would need to be able to accept control of those drones (FD7.36). That should require the ship to also pay for the (X2.34) upgrade to accept control of those drones.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Didn't J2 have a section on advanced shuttles? How were they deployed?

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 07:47 pm: Edit

John W,

(XJ2.1) is titled X-Admin shuttles. So they do appear to exist. What is X2.34 or what section is it in?

X drones have to be in an X-Admin or X-MRS to be used as an SP.

The X-drone control or accepting control of X-drones is allowed by an XP refit when a drone rack is changed to a GX or CX rack.

I think the question still is should an XP ship be allowed to have X-Admin shuttles. (R1.F17) A-Admin became in Y180, have 2 chaff packs, speed 8, and damage of 8. In (XJ2.1) An X-Admin is identical to an Admin shuttle and don't have chaff. I take the meaning of this section to say an X-Admin has a speed of 6 and damage of 6 (I could be wrong). So an X-Admin is different from an A-Admin.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Rule (XJ2.1) says "Administrative shuttles on X-ships are identical to those on non-X ships." That certainly means there is no difference. They do not appear on the Master Fighter Chart. The sentence could be no clearer, but you insist that there is a difference.

Where I typed (X2.34), it should have been (XR2.34). It requires that the accepting of X-drones requires a surchage be payed for in addition to the rack costs.

Rule (XJ2.1) was written long before (R1.F17); it should have been updated. It makes no sense that all the non-X ships would get advanced shuttles and X-ships would still be forced to use slower/weaker ones. (R1.F173) says X-ships can use A-Admin shuttles.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 08:55 pm: Edit

John,

I am not trying to be argumentative.

SVC said "Non-X fightes/bombers/shuttles/PFs cannot carry X-drones." You said "As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as an X-Admin shuttle." I didn't write the X rules or the draft XP rules. Either there are X-admin shuttles to use as SPs with X-drones or you use an X-MRS. Again this isn't my rule or statement.

"Rule (XJ2.1) was written long before (R1.F17); it should have been updated." I agree with you on this and the A-Admin. One of the rules is incorrect. I didn't see anything in the Errata either.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 09:26 pm: Edit

The problem is the rules do not say that. (XFD7.11) says "Only X-ships can prepare a scatter-pack that inclues X-drones."; it doesn't says anything about X-admin shuttles or X-MRS. A X-ship can use admin shuttle transfered from a non-X ship, even a MLS or MSS (either from another ship or X-Base from its shuttle deck.)

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 09:32 pm: Edit

John,

Could an XP ship with a GX rack load X-drones into a SP if (XFD7.11) was changed to include XP ships?

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Isn't that the point of this discussion? I think that an XP-ship should have to pay the (XR2.34) surcharge in addition to converting the drone rack. Part of what I have been trying to get across is that I think the X-admin shuttle thing is a red herring.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 07:50 pm: Edit

J2 has an upgrade for all shuttles in Y180, but it is not an X-specific upgrade.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 11:05 pm: Edit

For purposes of calculating CO points are the costs of XP refits included in the BPV?

Example: Fed FC (+163) XP refit: 2xPhoton (+6), 1xGX racks (+8), 4xBatteries (+8), 8x-PH-1Xs (+8), 2xPH-3s to PH-1Xs (+5), X-Drone FC (+3), and XP-shields (+6) = 207

Do I use 163 or 207?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 12:40 pm: Edit

A better way of asking the same question is the ways XP can be accounted for.

MUST we use COs?

What other options are open?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Actually the better way of asking the question would be in the Rules Q&A topic since these are not actual rules in CL and not in devleopement which is what this thread is.

Before you say it, yes these are technically still in developement since they were only published in CL but the question isn't about developement, it's a Rules Q&A. If you really want the question answered I suggest posting it there where it will actually be seen.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 04:39 pm: Edit

John and Loren,

Thanks for your comments. I wasn't sure were to post the question.

As I think about this I don't see it as a rule question but more a development question. An XP refit can more points to BPV that the previous refits did. My above example added 44 to the BPV. An XP refit to a BCH or DNH could add more than 100 points to BPV. There are a number of dynamics involved here with (S1-3) rules.

So to rephrase my question how or in what ways could the XP refit be considered under (S1-3) rules?

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Question on how (XR7.1) is apply:

Hydran XP ships can be converted to use Stinger-X fighters but this costs three points per fighter ...

I interprete this to mean that I pay 3 BPV to upgrade the ready rack to handle a Stinger-X. I still have to pay the full cost of the Stinger-X.

The alternative interpretation, which I think is wrong, is that you buy the original Stinger-2/H and for 3 BPV it is changed to a Stinger-X. This would be cheaper and I think wrong.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 02:28 pm: Edit

The question is: how much is a ready rack (and attendant ability to arm and repair an X-fighter)worth? If it's not worth 3 points per box, then the only alternative is to assume that the 3 is the cost of the fighter upgrade.

Module X1 lists the BPV of a St-X as 14. The difference between that and the 10 for a ST-2/H/E if 4. Could the "3" be a typo?

Has the ST-X BPV dropped to 13? Possible though the CL23 errata doesn't say anything either way.

Though I originally thought the XP rule was a ready rack update, I'm not so sure now.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:31 am: Edit

Is it possible that some of the races might take an old X1 ship and refit it with some of the new X2 gizmos? Perhaps as a prototype?

Similar to how some GW ships were given an XP refit with some of the new X1 technology?

reporting to the booth now, sir

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 03:23 am: Edit

I can see the Fed swapping out their Photons for Ph-5s on a DDX (DPX???) as a testbed vessel so maybe a few ships might go that way.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 10:27 am: Edit

Jeff,

Of course, none of us know what the X2 gizmos are yet. There's a lot of discussion in the X2 topics about phaser-5s,and S-bridge, and ASIF, and how much damage an X2 photon torpedo should do. But I don't believe SVC has stated whether he likes these ideas or not. For all we know, X2 may end up looking completely different.