Archive through July 28, 2006
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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Terra Forming 101, or how to build a world.:
Archive through July 28, 2006
Terra Forming. By Jeff Wile
Proposal: Rule (P__.1)
The classic procedure to transform a non M class planet(see rule P2.21 for description of Class M planets) in to a useable (hence colonizable) world.
TOS and other source documents referred to a number of Terra Forming projects in and around the Federation. Such projects were long term investments in "planetary engineering" intended to heat, cool, enlarge, reduce or in other ways modify an existing Non M class planet into one that could support life.
The Federation (not possessing some sort of "Genesis Device") relied upon more primative methods to acheive the desired end results.
Broadly speaking, a Terra Forming Project is one that is huge in scale, long duration (far, far longer than any SFB scenario or even F&E campaign) and multi generational. Not all races in SFB's will Terra Form, and some races see the Federation efforts to improve the various worlds ability to support life as a military threat.
The Rule is intended to allow players to integrate a Terra Forming Project into SFB's Scenario(s) as a terrain feature (i.e. as a alternative planet type, a developing world.) and as a civilian infrastructure distinct from and different than Major or Minor Worlds.
Terra Forming Worlds do not have sentient beings outside of the professional engineers, technicians and para professionals engaged in the project.
(P___.2) Developing World.
This is a planet (starting as a 'Non-M' Class planet) that will, over the course of the project be transformed into a Class M World, ready for colonization.
There are ten phases or stages that the process generally requires, each lasts approximately 10 years, and the entire Terra Forming procedure lasts approximately 100 years.
Phase 1. Mass Alteration. If a planet is not the ideal size (in terms of surface gravity, density, diameter etc...) then either additional mass or suplus mass must be added or removed as part of the process. One or more gound mining stations (not used commercially but dedicated to moulding and sculpturing the planet to the desired specifications) are deployed and they spend years making such changes to the planet structure as is needed. This phase may also require a orbital station such as a SAMS or a modified Commercial Platform for coordination purposes.
Phase 2. Core modification. If the planet is geologically active, with a high thermal-metal core, this phase may be shortened or eliminated. if not geologically active or if there is no thermo-metal core present, then one must be provided.
By far the most preferred metal added to Terra Forming planets is Iron ore, (preferrably from a near by asteroid field with a surplus of Iron Ores). This provides a number of advantages to the developing world. By having a iron core, the planets rotation generates a magnetic field. It also aids in developing a radiation belt (part of the protection that the developing worlds atmosphere provides.
In this stage (or phase) the mining stations from phase 1 are modified to start reclaiming rock core samples from as far into the planet as the tranporters are able to reach, depositing the rock on to the surface of the planet and replacing the rock cores with iron Ore.
Phase 3. Core Thermalization. Depending on the exact composition of thte planet, this process could start as early as phaser 1 or be delayed into phase 4.
The process introduces heat into the planets core to melt the Iron Ore. This could be (and has been on some planets) a "Core Tap". A Core Tap was originally designed to harvest heat units from a planetary core (and if the core is "too hot" a core tap will be installed to reduce such heat).
An alternative method again uses transporter technology to either heat the ore in place or "bleed off" excess heat.
In both cases, the mining ground stations and the orbital platforms (Com Plat or SAMS) are used to complete the process.
phase 4. Hydration.
Add water.
In the from of Asteriod Ice, large quantities of water are brought to within transporter range of the planet and the Terra Forming bases. the Ice is trasported (10 cubic meters at a time), treated by the transporter, if necessary to add or remove any impurities are other chemicals or minerals, and deposited on to the planet in either liquid (water) state or solid (ice) depending on the stage of the process and what the Senior Terra Forming Engineers determines is needed.
Phase 5. Atmosphere development.
The project will, by this point have been working for some 50 years... the atmosphere will be established, again with the aid of the transporters into a Oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, helieum and carbon envelope. The intent is to establish a favorable mix that will aid and expedite plant growth (both single celled and multicelled organisms).
This Phase will run concurrent with all remaining phases, and will eventually become part of the planets on going Ecological management program.
Phase 6. Soil Development.
At this point, new bases will be deployed to the planet, these are modified Agricultural ground bases. the intent is to develop and process the original mass of the planets surface into soil suitable for supporting plant and animal liffe forms.
Phaser 7. Climate and Weataher Control.
In cooperation with the existing ground and orbital bases, weather satilites (a civilian form of Def Sats, with no offensive capabilities) will use its on board array of phasers and drones to control the planets weather.
This "weather Control" allows the planetary Engineer to start rain fall, stop it, modify it or even to induce droughts.
Phase 8. Life cycle stage.
By the 80th year of Terra Forming, the planet should be ready to accept higher forms of animal life, in the forms of additional insects, fish, reptiles, and animals (such as Birds, herbevores and carnivores etc.).
Phase 9. Short term monitorization of Project.
The planet needs to support life for a minimal of 10 years before human or other sentient life forms may be allowed to habitate the surface of the planet. This is a safety precaution against unforseen problems.
Phaser 10. Certification period. The United Federation of planets has adopted a certification process to ensure the quality, reliability and ability of the newly Terra Formed World to support life. This process is normally 10 years, but has been as short as 7 1/2 years and prolonged for as long as 25 years in one case. (special circumstances).
For Star Fleet Battles Purposes, Each phase has its own level of infrastructure, summarized in the following table:
| Phase # | Mining | Agri | SAMS | CPL | Civ BS | POB | CivSat |
| 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| 5 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 |
| 6 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 |
| 7 | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 |
| 8 | 6 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 |
| 9 | 6 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4 |
| 10 | 6 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 |
Mine=Small Ground Mining Station (GMS)
Agri=Small Ground Agriculture Station (GSA)
SAMS= System Activity Maintainence Station (SAMS)
CPL= Commercial Platform (CPL)
Civ BS= Civilian Base Station (BS)
POB= Civilian Planetary Operations Base (POB)
Civ Sat= Civilian style Def Sats intended for Weather control and Terra Forming duties. (Def Sat)
The following table is provided to help express the value (and expense!) of a Terra Forming Project.
| Unit | CU | BP | BPV | Size class | PWP | Rule Nbr |
| GMS | 16 | 4 | 20/8 | 5 | R1 | 28E |
| GSA | 7 | 2 | 8 | 5 | R1 | 28F |
| SAMS | 25 | 10 | 38 | 4 | R1 | 30 |
| CPL | 20 | 6 | 50/36 | 4 | R1 | 29 |
| BS | 60 | 12 | 120 | 3 | BS | 3 |
| POB | 28 | 6 | 30/7 | 3 | - | R1.A12 |
| Def Sat | 0 | 0 | 20 | | R1 | 15 |
This proposal is offered to put some sort of infrastructure for a given Terra Forming Project.
In the early years, there are few bases and personnel assigned, but as the project matures, more and different bases are deployed.
I will put a table together that will show the total BPV's of the various stages.
As is ussual, comments, suggestions corrections are welcome.
| Phase # | GMS | GSA | SAMS | CPL | Civ BS | POB | CivSat | Total BPV's |
| 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 58/46 |
| 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 98/74 |
| 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 118/82 |
| 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 166/118 |
| 5 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 224/141 |
| 6 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 262/213 |
| 7 | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 270/221 |
| 8 | 6 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 338/229 |
| 9 | 6 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 366/257 |
| 10 | 6 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 506/397 |
Jeff Wile:
I am assuming this is some sort of campaign rule? I ask, because it has no obvious SFB function, other than having the players declare a given planet is in stage X of terra forming for purposes of a given scenario and thus has the bases you have defined. (At least so far as I can see.)
I would note that a SAMS station is not likely in an early phase, as its purpose is basically the coordination of activities within a system, and assumes a somewhat better system with more active traffic than an at start colonization.
Also that a SAMS station might be placed sometime after a Commercial Platform. (A commercial platform is intended to be a trading port that allows bulk carriers to dock rather than using shuttles to haul cargo up from the planet's gravity well over an extended period. The extended period of hauling is still done, but is done while the freighter is "not present", i.e., cargo is brought up to the Commercial Platform, and then rapidly loaded into the freighter through the Commercial Platform's docking ports, reducing the time the freighter has to spend in system.)
Any given planet is not likely to have a Commercial Platform AND a Civilian Base Station, as the Civilian Base Station takes over the Commercial Platforms functions. Since the Civilian Base Station also pretty much takes over the functions of the SAMS station, it is unlikely that you would have both. (Having both a CommPlat and a SAMS station is possible, even likely for a growing colony, but about the time it places a Civilian Base Station in orbit, the SAMS Station and the CommPlat would be shut down and either sold off or scrapped.)
A planetary Operations base is likely to remain in operations, but once you have the Civilian Base Station, you are probably going to start deploying better defensive ships. You might keep the Skiffs (I would, but different planets would have different politics), but you might replace all the skiffs with Modular Cutters or Seeker Skiffs and no longer use them for Tariffs and Customs duties, or you might just "dock" the skiffs as normal ships to the Civilian Base Station (adding a couple more even) when not in use (repair, refueling, rearming, etc.). But the POB still remains useful (yes, I know, I designed it and can be seen as tooting my own horn) for moving bulk cargo up to the Civilian Base Station's more copious (compared to the Commercial Platform) cargo bays so that more cargo can be moved to more freighters (the reason you build the Civilian Base Station to start with).
But the problem with planets is generally to find out why the enemy is attacking them. All you are providing is (as I have noted before) is targets with no victory conditions. What are the Pirates going to be after if they attack this colony under basic piracy? What goals does an attacker have to meet to capture the planet? (And where are your ground force defenses in any case?) What goals does an attacker have to meet to wreck the planet? These are important questions in a campaign.
No,I am not trying to stifle your creativity here, but I am trying to figure out what your goal is.
I'ld also like to make some comments.
Quote:Phase 1. Mass Alteration. If a planet is not the ideal size (in terms of surface gravity, density, diameter etc...) then either additional mass or suplus mass must be added or removed as part of the process. One or more gound mining stations (not used commercially but dedicated to moulding and sculpturing the planet to the desired specifications) are deployed and they spend years making such changes to the planet structure as is needed. This phase may also require a orbital station such as a SAMS or a modified Commercial Platform for coordination purposes.
Okay, just so that we know.
The Earth is 12,500 km across ( although in SFB it's counted as 10,000 km ) and has a gravity of 1g.
Now since the mass of a planet will increase with the cube of the diametre and the gravitational pull shall reduce with the square of your distance from the diametre we can say that the gravitational effects of the planet on a person ( if we assmue the dencity of the planet is about the same as the earth or 3 tonnes per cubic metre ), is directly proprotional to the diamtre.
This means if a planet is made out of stuff similar to the Earth and of the same dencity and has a gravity of 0.9, then it would be 11,250 kilometres across.
Now to determine the amount of soil one would need to add to create a gravity of 1g, one would need to add soil equal to the differance between the two volumes.
V1 - V2 = Volume of differance.
V= 4/3 pR3
4/3 p 6,2503 - 4/3 p 5,6253 = 277,139,195,678 cubic kilometres of soil.
Of by the way, a cubic kilometre of soil will weigh 9,000,000,000 Tonnes.
Also a planet with no oceans which we intent to cover with 70% surface water to an average depth of 3 km (like the earth) will need (4 p R2 x 3 ) 1,472,621,556 cubic kilometres of water and each cubic kilometre of fresh water will weight one thousand million (US Billion ) tonnes and each cubic kilometre of seawater will weight 1.025 times as much.
The point I'm making here is that a GPD Tech-level 11 empire will find it much harder to perform terroform past some problems than others.
For some worlds, it's just going to be a matter of adding a few genetically engineered earthworms and grasses and wait 10 years for life cycle to be developed that can support agriculture and for other worlds, it a question of adding a heck of a lot more. Mars will be much easier to terraform than Venus especially because Venus as a hydrocloric acid atmosphere.
So I would commend you link terraforming to techlevels and also make each stage of terra forming, take less time which each level past the invention of that form of terraforming (with a genesis divice being the upper end of the spectrum time-wise).
Then link it to F&E so that players can start out at Y1 and choose to have a big navy or a huge number of major worlds depending on what they think is a better eay to spend their money.
Steve Petrick:
I'll try to answer each question.
SPP posted:
quote:
"I am assuming this is some sort of campaign rule?"
Answer:
Yes.
quote:
" I ask, because it has no obvious SFB function, other than having the players declare a given planet is in stage X of terra forming for purposes of a given scenario and thus has the bases you have defined. (At least so far as I can see.)"
Answer:
Correct. So far As I recall, Terra Forming has not been defined in SFB's, either methods, time considertations or systems requirements. I thought it might be helpful to define what is involved in terra forming a planet.
quote:
"I would note that a SAMS station is not likely in an early phase, as its purpose is basically the coordination of activities within a system, and assumes a somewhat better system with more active traffic than an at start colonization."
Answer:
I went with the SAMS initially as I thought an orbital facility would be helpful (if not required) during the initial survey/planning of the Terra Froming Project. Also the SAMS was only 38 BPV, while the CPL was 50/36 BPV.
I have no prblem with changing the order in which the bases appear, changing types or deleting either or both the SAMS and CPL.
quote:
"Also that a SAMS station might be placed sometime after a Commercial Platform. (A commercial platform is intended to be a trading port that allows bulk carriers to dock rather than using shuttles to haul cargo up from the planet's gravity well over an extended period. The extended period of hauling is still done, but is done while the freighter is "not present", i.e., cargo is brought up to the Commercial Platform, and then rapidly loaded into the freighter through the Commercial Platform's docking ports, reducing the time the freighter has to spend in system.)"
Answer:
Again, this was the initial draft of a Terra Forming Project. I have no idea if this is something that might be worth adding to the game, if it as useless as a screen door on a submarine or if it might be adapted to some other purpose.
Given the need of the terra formed world for Iron asteriods, asteroidal ice and doubless many other things from the near by asteroid fields... i suspect that processing many many loads from the mining stations will be trans shipped by what ever orbital platform is deployed.
quote:
"Any given planet is not likely to have a Commercial Platform AND a Civilian Base Station, as the Civilian Base Station takes over the Commercial Platforms functions. Since the Civilian Base Station also pretty much takes over the functions of the SAMS station, it is unlikely that you would have both. (Having both a CommPlat and a SAMS station is possible, even likely for a growing colony, but about the time it places a Civilian Base Station in orbit, the SAMS Station and the CommPlat would be shut down and either sold off or scrapped.)"
Answer:
That is acceptable. I anticipated the need for the civilian Base Station to act as the terminus of the many ships bringing in colonists from older (more crowded) worlds. selling or scrapping either the SAMS or the CPL would fit in to the closing of the terra forming project.
quote:
"A planetary Operations base is likely to remain in operations, but once you have the Civilian Base Station, you are probably going to start deploying better defensive ships. You might keep the Skiffs (I would, but different planets would have different politics), but you might replace all the skiffs with Modular Cutters or Seeker Skiffs and no longer use them for Tariffs and Customs duties, or you might just "dock" the skiffs as normal ships to the Civilian Base Station (adding a couple more even) when not in use (repair, refueling, rearming, etc.). But the POB still remains useful (yes, I know, I designed it and can be seen as tooting my own horn) for moving bulk cargo up to the Civilian Base Station's more copious (compared to the Commercial Platform) cargo bays so that more cargo can be moved to more freighters (the reason you build the Civilian Base Station to start with)."
Answer:
No response, it seems that the need for the POB during the transition from unpopulated terraformed Class M planet to a new colony world with an expanding civilian population is clear.
quote:
"But the problem with planets is generally to find out why the enemy is attacking them. All you are providing is (as I have noted before) is targets with no victory conditions. What are the Pirates going to be after if they attack this colony under basic piracy? What goals does an attacker have to meet to capture the planet? (And where are your ground force defenses in any case?) What goals does an attacker have to meet to wreck the planet? These are important questions in a campaign."
Answer:
You appear to be looking at the Terra forming bases as part of a combat scenario... which, to be fair is the primary purpose of STar Fleet Battles.
I am offering this as an ADDITIONAL TERRAIN Type. (emphasis, not shouting.)
good Land is valuable. it allows for population growth, room for additional tax payers, and workers to build the starships, PF's bombers and fighters that various races need for both conquest and defense.
Such resources have been and doubtless will be cause for wars. Ask the Romulans, they have a definite lack of habitable planets in their space... and future expansion of the Romulan Empire is a stated goal.
I did not include defenses for the terra forming project proposal as each world will have different threats... and the defenses need to reflect that.
A terra forming project to make Mars into a terran type planet would benefit (somewhat) from the defenses protecting Earth, Luna and Venus (assuming it becomes habitable)... a planet on the Klingon Border might well require significant defenses in its own right.
The Terra Forming project might well have a common number of bases and personnel required...but the defrenses surely must be assigned in relation to the threats that exist.
As to what Pirates are after if they attack a terra forming project? well, they could be paid to wreck it by a neighboring race to prevent the colonization of the planet.
The Pirates might be looking for skilled engineers and technicians for sale to less descriminating buyers of technically competent slaves?!?
What goals does an attacker have to meet to wreck the planet? perhaps the same level of damage to devastate a class M planet? maybe for each 100 points of damage inflicted on a hex side reduces the planets current Phase by 1 level (a phase 7 hex side after being damaged is considered a phaser 6?)
quote:
"No,I am not trying to stifle your creativity here, but I am trying to figure out what your goal is."
I didnt think that.
I was trying to offer an additional choice for terrain purposes in SFB's scenarios...possibly a function to relate future fiction for Captains Logs?
A GURPS Prime Directive aspect (and adventure setting) will need some idea of the bases and systems in use on a terra formed planet, I thought relating it in SFB's terms could start a discussion about terra forming.
I don't see a F&E connection, such terra forming efforts should be subsummed into the game background and effectively ignored.
Perhaps in SFB's as well since it provides little to the game except adding more targets... but the game back ground does indicate that terra forming is a function of Star Fleet.
Thats why I startetd this as a rule addition for the 'P' section... it would seem to be a subset of the "M class Planets" rules...
Quote:I don't see a F&E connection, such terra forming efforts should be subsummed into the game background and effectively ignored.
Yeah, I guess it depends on how deep you want to go into F&E with regards to ecconomics.
I mean rules could be written for the effects of investment into an empire's education facilities (getting X-ships earlier???) but most people would prefere just to play strategic ship-to-ship combat F&E, rather than ecconmic F&E.
For what it's worth, it'ld definately be a good idea to have terraforming as a part of YF&E; the early years or the YEARS OF DISCOVERY or some such.
It could be subsummed, or it could be allowed to be a seperate rule.
I mean, what better way to create alternate scenarios for F&E than to say "race X doesn't terraform; they invade!" (Anyone remember the movie Independance Day!?!) A lot of races will think that invasion is cheaper, especially a world that has been newly terraformed by your enemy and ripe for planting your crops and commercial livestock on.
Terraforming is a cool idea, but I don't believe SFB needs rules for a process that is irrelevant during a scenario. A century worth of development is irrelevant on a scale where one turn = one second . F&E may have a home for terraforming, and as is so often the case, the SFB rule may inherit from the F&E rule.
The Tholian Dyson sphere is a cool idea, but until defined by a scenario it is backstory.
Where do people keep getting this idea that a SFB turn lasts 1 second? It's about a minute ( mind you, if you read some GPD stuff then it's actually 32 seconds ).
The ComPlats and Agro-bases and what-not become the SFB bits that Terraforming invokes and uses and they become the turn by turn SFB part of the game.
If an ALIENS style shake-and-bake colony goes boom, you've set that galactic power back at least two years.
Now, would a fusion reactor based atmosphere-morphing plant like that be a good goes-boom-at-point-X SFB scale target to damage...I sure think it could be...and indeed should be an SFB unit.
Jeff Wile:
The problem I am having is that if you do not first define the campaign rules under which terraforming is an option, then it is a rules set with no meaning.
The most I can see with what you have right now is that as part of setting up a campaign for when the war starts, each player has "X" number of planets that are undergoing terraforming, roll on the following table to randomly determine for each planet that is being terraformed what its status is at the start of the campaign. To continue terraforming a planet requiers "Y" economic points, variable depending on the current terraforming level of the planet. Continuing the terraforming has "Z" benefit to the side that is doing the terraforming, abandoning the terraforming has negative impact "A".
Other than that, it is pretty meaningless in so far as SFB is concerned, and the scale of Federation and Empire is too large to encompass what you are doing.
I always find the long speeches in CL combat write-ups amusing. If you add up the length of time it takes various people in the bridge to say the things that they say, the combat would be over over before they have finished their tactical discussions. And that's assuming 1-minute turns.
I time my bridge speak in my stories.
Where is this "one minute" coming from for turn length? Time/distance scale was always kind of haphazard in Star Trek, and it seems unavoidable that some of that would leak into SFB unless SVC wanted to completely blow off the source material. But...
The speed of light is approximately 300,000 km/sec.
One SFB hex is 10,000 km.
Therefore, the speed of light is approximately 30 hexes per second.
So... if a turn is one minute long, the speed of light is 1800 hexes per turn?
Re: Time to turn, See (A3.4).
Steve Petrick:
Ok, lets try to answer this next batch a little bit at a time...
SPP posted:
quote: "The problem I am having is that if you do not first define the campaign rules under which terraforming is an option, then it is a rules set with no meaning."
Answer:
IMO Terra Forming will be a lot like watching grass grow. It is too slow to be perceptible by most people... but the cumulative growth can be measured over a suitable period of time.
How and in what ways Terra Forming will function in a Campaign was left vague intentionally as iMO the length of time is so large that there are few (if any) short term benefits. The pay off is a new inhabitable planet some time "down the road".
Humans have for centuries built long term projects for community good. the Great Wall of China (security) the Pyramids in Egypt (ensuring the after life, for example), trans contenental rail way (both the american and the siberian railroads)(transportation) are all examples of projects that took many years (in thte case of the pyramids and the Great wall of China, centuries, IIUC).
As such, I feel that a terra forming project will have bases, (both in orbit and planet side) in the star systems that are being imprved for years (decades) where the planet itself is being modified.
In terms of Star Fleet battles, the Terra Forming Project will be represented by the Personnel, equipment and bases (both ground and orbital) present at a planet (technically, if a Asteriod belt is being mined for the materials to improve a planet, then there would be another group of miners, cargo/tugs ships picking up the material for delivery at the planet).
Such "civilian bystanders" would be present just as in todays real world, if a dam building project happened to be at the site of a battle by two opposing powers (with associated armies) the engineers would no doubt try to take shelter or evacuate from the scene of the battle.
Same thing in SFB's I suppose. The Terra Forming Projects military capacity might not be too great (unless there was an assigned defense / security force?!?!) but it would be a factor in any battle that took place on the site.
quote: "The most I can see with what you have right now is that as part of setting up a campaign for when the war starts, each player has "X" number of planets that are undergoing terraforming, roll on the following table to randomly determine for each planet that is being terraformed what its status is at the start of the campaign. To continue terraforming a planet requiers "Y" economic points, variable depending on the current terraforming level of the planet. Continuing the terraforming has "Z" benefit to the side that is doing the terraforming, abandoning the terraforming has negative impact "A"."
Answer:
That would be a way to treat the concept.... but I repeat... the purpose of the proposal was to design a Terra Forming Force pool that would be at the planet. Goals for the forces fighting in the battle might include protecting the Project, or it might be a military objective of one force to destroy the Terra Forming Project...It might even be a goal of the defender to ensure that the Terra Froming Project must not fall into the hands of the enemy! (would this be an example of burning down the village in order to save it?!?
SPP posted:
quote: "Other than that, it is pretty meaningless in so far as SFB is concerned, and the scale of Federation and Empire is too large to encompass what you are doing."
In my opinion the Terra Forming Project (I'm refering to the accumulated personnel, ground bases, orbital bases shuttles, etc) is every bit as worthy of representation in Star Fleet battles as any civilian unit. (we have freighters, civilian Base Stations, Free Traders, commercial platforms and a host of potential SKIF designs, modular couriers and utility work boats (such as the Klingon design printed in a captains Log magazine a few issues back.)
They have a mission (to build a habitable world), they have the ships and equipment to carry out that mission, and they have a documented history of references in the source material.
It is not a case that the Terra forming Project would go looking for a battle somewhere... the battle may come to them.
Steve, put yourself in the position of a sector commander for the UFP Star Fleet... you have a mission to defend the Federation. You have a region/area to defend, and you have the ships and manpower (person power?!?) to execute that mission.
spread out across your defense arrea are planets, mines, agricultural ground stations, research outposts, minor colonies, minor worlds and major worlds. you have base stations, battle Stations and star bases.
All I am suggesting is that there might also be a number of terra forming projects in the area spread out among all the other places to defend.
They are not military assets that you could use in the defense of the Federation... but they are civilians who are working on a project that will benefit the Federation in the future.
Question:
Of what use are rules on terraforming?
They conceivably serve to formalize the forces and conditions expected to be present at the site of a terraforming operation in the remote change that a scrnario should happen to call for one. I can't think of any more relevant purpose.
There's a huge amount of minutiae here and SFB already has received many generous gifts from the minutae fairies over its lifetime as it is. We don't need more.
We need short, succient rules that add interestint tactics and/or situations to the game.
Quote:All I am suggesting is that there might also be a number of terra forming projects in the area spread out among all the other places to defend.
They are not military assets that you could use in the defense of the Federation... but they are civilians who are working on a project that will benefit the Federation in the future.
There are conceivably many different projects, places or facilities that fall under this category. The point is, Jeff, that they don't add anything to influence play. I can do a scenario where I defend a terraforming site. Fine. From a playing standpoint, this has no impact at all; it could be a mining colony, a prison asteroid, a hydroponics facility on an otherwise barren moon...anything. It doesn't impact how I play or the decisions I make because it's too far removed from what I'm doing. So the question is; what does this highly detailed set of rules do to make it worth incorporating into the game?
Quote:They have a mission (to build a habitable world), they have the ships and equipment to carry out that mission, and they have a documented history of references in the source material.
Try actually designing a few SSDs and see what you think about them. Especially think of other sci-fi films so a planet side atmospheric fusion plant would be an interesting unit as would ice pushing freighters and robotic tree planting land vehicles (if only to add spice to GPD games).
See how you feel about things after you've toyed around with the construction of such units.
Quote:Other than that, it is pretty meaningless in so far as SFB is concerned, and the scale of Federation and Empire is too large to encompass what you are doing.
I would disagree. In fact in a lot of ways terraforming is an F&E bank account.
Plug in X EP and ten years latter you get X EP plus interest. (That's assuming you terraform planets that are already pretty close to being inhabitable.)
That would be the simplest level of an F&E rule.
You might have a rule of 5, 10, 15, & 20 year investments with each kind having consistantly larger interest rates of return.
So players then get to make the choice, inest in the ecconomy now and reap the reward in quite a long time from no, or build ships today.
I'ld commend player write down the EP they're investing on a piece of paper, seal it in an envelop and write the turn that their investment matures on the outside and stow the envelop on the table; if you need a rule to keep player honest but I doubt you'ld need one.
"a planet side atmospheric fusion plant would be an interesting unit as would ice pushing freighters" already exist... They are called a power plant and port tug respectively.
Honestly, just about any ship could push around ice, just grab a hunk in a tractor and go at it!
I believe Jeff Wile is looking at something to add to "The Campaign Designer's Handbook". Some campaigns may take a long view where terraforming a planet would have some value, and having the rules specific too it would not be a bad thing. Not all campaigns consist of the operations of one ship, or carrier group, or squadron of ships, during a relatively short period of time. The Campaign designer would have to decide on the scale of the campaign, and might choose "years", or "months" that lead to years. And might have periods of peace and raids. The problem would be finding a way to integrate the value of doing terraforming into the campaign. There would be no reason to do it if it did not provide you with some benefit. Otherwise, it is just a drain of resources and will be ignored.
Thank you, Steve.
While "The Campaign Designers Handbook" has many helpful things in it, it doesnt "mesh" exactly with SFB's... no doubt that was intentional, but when trying to integrate the CDH with SFB there are places that the gears dont "exactly fit" (If you follow my expression/thought!)
I guess, judging from SPP's and every one elses opinions that have been posted... my suggestion for Terra Forming needs more work and thought.
On reconsideration, this could be envisioned as a class of construction battalions (perhaps part of the Star Fleet Corps of Engineers?!?) or similar to the US Navy "SeaBees" (A.K.A. "CB") for "Construction Battalion" that went to uninhabited areas and locations and built the air, land and sea bases around the world (from Iceland to the solomon Islands on the road to winning WW2.
An idea would be to have a unit similar in size (and would be moved in much the same way as) Planetary Defense Units (PDU's) in F&E.
Terra Forming would be the "biggest" job that these units would be asigned, but they would also be used to build bases on planets(not just PDU's but IIRC the rules also alow for Battle stations and star bases to be built on planets.)
I don't beleive that all new equipment or pods need be designed... much of what is needed has already be built into the game...whats missing is the organization for putting these parts to working together in a game context.
Such a thing could have synergy to the extent that PDU's are deployed by either tugs or convoys... you could deploy these CB's (construction Battalions) the same way... then when the convoy brings in the PDU, the same ships could take the Construction Battalion to its next assignment.
There would be several questions that need to be settled:
1. What pods, personnel, and special equipment should these socalled construction battalions have?
2. Would they be capable of acting like a "real World" combat engineers battalion does in combat?
3. Could they clear or lay mine fields for those times when the specialized mine layers are not available?
4. Would they be able to build Ground combat locations on a planet?
I suspect that a construction battalion might have some ships of its own ... perhaps Combat engineers version of the Civilian Planetary Operations Base?!? (the POB was printed in Captains Log #33).
A combat engineer Battalion might have a phaser 4 ground base (for the big phaser 4... I'm sure that ther are times that such would be helpful in clearing debris, preparing construction sites, and a little bit of "security" for the battalion.
A CB unit might have a Small ground mining Station. A small Agricutural base (GSA). maybe a GMG (ground garrison for the personnel of the battalion?!?).
I still think an orbital base is needed, but the three that I suggested are rather specialized, expensive. (these were the civilian Base Station, the SAMS, and the CPL...)
I doubt a ground warning station is needed...that will be part of the PDU that will be delivered later.
What about a Ground Science station? that way they could do the complete survey work for setting up a colony... and if there were any incomplete reading from the initial planetary surveys, the GSO could resolve the points.
Just preparing the ground locations for a PDU wount take years...can be completed during a SFB's campaign.
The same unit could be used for terra forming... but would have other uses than just sitting around "watching grass grow"...
Jeff Wile:
There is still the question of what SFB effect this has. Nothing you have suggested that I can see comes under anything more than 'take some generic units, set them up on a planet to be attacked by the aggressor, and as a background point, declare that they are a "combat engineer battalion".
The article on PDUs was done to give a generic concept for what a Federation and Empire PDU looks like for purposes of going down from the big fleet battle to the lonely skirmish around such a planet.
What you are positing is just "the planet gets prepared for the PDU by this unit", but you are not really doing anything but trying to define another different type of ground unit that has no game function.
Do I need to do anything more than say "it takes four large freighters, or two very large freighters, or eight small freighters, or any combination of these equal to the capacity of four large freighters of cargo, and one six month game turn, to prepare a planet to received a PDU?
Further, this is not in any way supported by the rules in Fed and Emp, which basically say you plop the PDU down, you do not have to send in the Engineers first, and once the PDU is there, you can just add more up to a set limit, which implies that your engineers never leave. There is "intermediate step" where there is a weaker defense that is just the Engineers laying the ground work.
Now, sure, you can make a case that Engineers are required to set up a Power Network that ties four small ground bases together, but such a thing is not required for just placing the ground bases. They pretty much can handle that themselves.
Hey Jeff
My thoughts on terraforming planets.
1 It would be only feasable and economically sound if the planet had enough natural resources to warrant a transplanted population there for the long term making your miners/farmers/construction professionals actual inhabitants.
2 Since the federation is a free capitalist society I do not see the goverment having a huge roll in the terraforming except in a security/revenue collection capacity. The main burden would be from private industry, while the goverment would maybe invest some seed money and access to certain technologies the main burden would be on the corporations.
3 that being said goverment investment would in a campaign setting reap future revenue in the form of trade and taxes from goods harvested on the planet.
4 In the case of other goverments how they man and financially back terraforming (BTW wouldnt Hydrians Jupiterform) would differ by their nature, Klingons would use prisoner/slave labor, Kzinti would give it as a fief to a warrior who had proven himself and his vassals would work it, etc, etc.
5 New colonies would probably have for defences a few satelite defences and small ships, unless of course the resources from the colony are very valuable and rare. If most the product are run of the mill a new colony wouldnt produce enough to bother being raided.
6 Lenth of time for terraforming would a planet would depend on the starting class of the planet and probably its distance from its sun, certain planets I see as impossible to terraform ( Gas Giants, Pluto or Mercury types)
Just a few observations for fun.
Reid
Just an observation but there are qualitative differences between gas giants. Uranus and Neptune for instance while similar in many ways have some significant differnces in atmospheric make up and of course temperature.
So if lobbing a few dozen comets at an unsuitable gas giant might make it a suitable one perhaps the Hydrans would —"Hydroform".
On the other hand gas giants-even minor ones such as the two mentioned are pretty damned big. So perhaps the Hydrans have less need to expand their colonies.
However, there are a lot of questions about how the Hydrans abide on their planets. Many gas giants are assumed not to have solid surfaces as we know it. So what do the the Hydrans do? Swim? Uranus has a liquid ocean-water-believed to be 10,000 km deep.
Just a few random thoughts precipitated by your post
regards
Stacy