Oh, I don't disagree that when the galaxy is pacified and the Andro main body arrives, they'll wipe everyone out. My contention is that the forces we are concerned with are the vanguard forces, and that what they are engaged in during the period in question is the destruction of the alpha races ability to resist. Vessels, bases, support facilities, key worlds...that's what they are after. Sadly for them, they didn't get it done, didn't bring quite enough forces, and were kicked out before they could finish the job.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 09:00 pm: Edit

I believe the starbase in the LMC was the RTN node for new arrivals from Andromeda. When that was destroyed reinforcements stopped.

I recall SVC mentioning that this had an effect on the Andros that were attacking the Xorkaeliens. (and that's what might have drove them to attack us, see the Alphas as a threat if we could be the Andros and they couldn't.)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 08:50 am: Edit

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I don't see the outerworlds as a group as able to force a neutral position for themselves.

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A cheap way of assertng control is destroying any ship that doesn't have an "approved by High Command" sticker on the side. Is there some reason why they wouldn't? They aren't making use of the economy of the regions they are controlling, why should they give anyone else unrestrained access?

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Mike,

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Oh, I don't disagree that when the galaxy is pacified and the Andro main body arrives, they'll wipe everyone out. My contention is that the forces we are concerned with are the vanguard forces, and that what they are engaged in during the period in question is the destruction of the alpha races ability to resist. Vessels, bases, support facilities, key worlds...that's what they are after. Sadly for them, they didn't get it done, didn't bring quite enough forces, and were kicked out before they could finish the job.

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 01:40 pm: Edit

It occurs to me that if the Andro Base was the RTN Anchor and there was a full scale invasion force on the way from Andromeda, there are now quite a few pissed off Andros half way to our galaxy, and their fleet has solved the 2 DisDev max problem. When they get here (more likely, when they get to the LMC) they will be a post Xork force to be reckoned with. Wouldn't it be wild if after the Xork war we gang up with the Xorks to defeat the Andros?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 01:48 pm: Edit

There simply aren’t that many Andros in this vanguard force. A single planetary system would be sufficient to meet all of their mining needs for a century. The mining necessary for ship building would occur in the LMC. Even then, mining asteroids is cheaper and easier since you don’t have to deal with the gravity well and the P4 bases defending the planet. I see the Andros as indiscriminately sinking every freighter, base and warship they come across, but tackling a planet requires a concerted effort, lost ships and a reason.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Tos: By the time those Andros get here, the galactics won't just have the ships who beat them, but the ships that beat the Xorkaelians.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:12 pm: Edit

True, but the Andros won't just have a Vanguard force, they will bring in a full scale invasion/colinization force and once they restore the RTN on this end they will have access to unlimited reinforcements. The Andros will have made some (fewer) advances too.

What could be fun is if the Xorkelians defeat the Alpha sector and while trying to consolidate their gains the Andros arive and cut off the LMC route they had been taking, which allows the Alpha races to rise up and overthrow the local Xorks. We may have the technology to build great ships, but the combined races only have a standing fleet 1/20 the size of the fleets they had at the end of the pacification.

The moral of the story is we know the Andros, Selts and Xorks will be invading in force. We can wave a magic wand to decide when.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:30 pm: Edit

John,

Take a look at CL30 Operation Unity update. We do have an answer in a somewhat outline form. The Andros diveded their forces between the LMC, Omega Sector, and Alpha Sector (and the Xorks?). They over estimated their own abilities and didn't grasp how the races would unite and fight back.

The primary target-selections were military ships and infrastructure. That is what it says in SH26 and it fits with the updated information on OpU in CL30. I don't think they thought they needed to control/destroy the civilian and government infrastructure for the same reasons they failed to grasp how the Milky Way races would unite against them; it wasn't part of the overall strategy and in their own hubris failed to recognize the need.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 09:40 am: Edit

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There's no good reason to let the civilian populations under their control run around and do what they please. With their backs against the wall, people are just too dangerously creative.

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Pythons are mambas with a dis-dev replacing one of the TRLs. Being satships, they're easy to build and should be able to use the RTN indepenendly of a mothership. A handful of Pythons could work whatever destruction might be required at a very minimal cost to the andro war effort.

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I see the Andros as indiscriminately sinking every freighter, base and warship they come across, but tackling a planet requires a concerted effort, lost ships and a reason

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I don't think they thought they needed to control/destroy the civilian and government infrastructure for the same reasons they failed to grasp how the Milky Way races would unite against them; it wasn't part of the overall strategy and in their own hubris failed to recognize the need.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 01:08 am: Edit

Joe,

The andros didn't overestimate their abilities.

They simply didn't expect the galactics to discover the vulnerability of the RTN in time for it to do (the galactics) any good. They also rationed their forces. They deployed exactly what they calculated they would need and no more.

The andros were right. The first time around, we *didn't* peg the RTN until it was too late. It took a ship travelling back in time from this first, losing iteration of history to alert the galaxy of the RTN in time to turn the tide (how this avoids a time paradox is a question I'm goint to set aside)

What does CL 26's "infrastructure" reference mean? Just military units and resource distibution or production facilities as well? Could a world on the andro side of the lines continue to produce war supplies for an empire?

Somehow, I don't think so.

I would tend to expect the Andros to destroy the entire galactic war-production infrastructure. That means key mining installations, war-goods production, freighters that carry those goods, shipyards, and an empire's fleet supply system.

Does CL 26 address the andro as occupiers? When attacking the core remnents of the empires, they might well go for pure military targets, but that doesn't address their behaviour once they control territory unless CL 26 says that the andros left the world under their control alone and untouched, which seems to be what you are implying.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 02:08 am: Edit

John,

Did you mean SH26 instead of CL26?

Direct quote out of CL30 OpU update, page 62 "...but through their own actions drove their victims to unite against them. This alone may tell us something about the Andromedan mindset. It seems to indicate both a colossal over estimation of their own capabilities..."

SH26 Andromedan raid: "The Andromedans sought to conquer the galaxy by disrupting military operations and support facilities. Their unexplained ability to shift rapidly from sector to sector and appear almost out of nowhere made their small fleet a major threat."

These two quotes only provide a general outline of the Andromedan's conquest strategy. Your view that the Andros destroy the entire galactic war-production infrastructure would be the likely end result. I don't know how close they made it to that end point when the galactics discovered the RTN. Unlike the GW races who control sectors through conquest and occupation the Andro seem to appear and blow things up, which achieves control in a sense.

We just don't know how much of the alpha sector they destroyed verses isolated for later destruction/conquest.

You asked "Could a world on the andro side of the lines continue to produce war supplies for an empire?" I don't think I have been trying to say that. This is a frontless war because of the RTN. The effects of the Andro campaign would tend to isolate outlying worlds. So I don't disagree with you. Both commercial and military ships would be subject to attack. As the RTN became more disrupted these attacks would become less frequent. I have suggested isolated areas may band together. "Independent" provinces could emerge post Y197.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 03:28 am: Edit

I think we are getting way too stuck on the idea that Indie planets need to build and maintain their ships.
The Galactic Powers would prefere if the opposite was true.

Secondly we are getting stuck on the idea that a factory needs to exhist for years before it starts building stuff. This is not always the case. Sometimes a factory can be built and start producing in as little as 12 months.

Thirdly there is the question of how deeply the Andros cut.
Do they destroy the ability to manufacture weapons??? Probably.
Do the destroy the ability to manufacture factories that can manufacture weapons!?! Probably not.
Do the Destroy the ability to manufacture the tools that build the factories that make the factories that make the weapons and the Universities that teach the people how to design the tools that make the factories that make that parts that go into making the factories that build the weapons???
And how do they get intel on all this!?!


I would say that from a game play perspective. The Indie worlds bought their Indie warships and found that by fair means or foul; their ships were not as Independant as they had hoped.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 09:47 am: Edit

I think in the end (as I've said before) we're just going to go 'round and 'round until a decision is made on X2's direction. That decision won't be made by any of us.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 12:09 pm: Edit

What we are doing is exploring possible timelines. We may find that some timelines, followed to their logical conclusion, don't lead where we want to go. SVC's thinking may align with one of our timelines, but if through discourse we determine that timeline doesn't work, or is sub-optimal, we have the potential to serve the community by helping prevent a mistake.

Many in this topic have been thinking of time linearly, and in this instance I don't think that gets us where we need to go. I prefer a top down approach:
1) Figure out where we want to be to make the Trade War period as fun and interesting as possible.
2) Assemble a plausable history that gets us there.

We know the signiture event of X2 is the Trade Wars, what do we want the Trade Wars to be?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 12:28 pm: Edit

Walmart and Target in a knock down, drag out fight for their very lives?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 01:19 pm: Edit

I say forget the timeline and history stuff. SVC's already said he's writing it. Our "job" for what it's worth is to create something we can play that will A) play nice with GW and X1, and B) won't be either boring ("bigger better") or so wildly different the traditionalists won't like it or play it (no phasers, weird looking ships with no recognizable racial flavor, etc.) Worrying over timelines and such is just whistling in the dark at this point, because we don't have enough info to go on. How about let's just focus on getting a playable ship designed? One that at least four people can actually agree with?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Pepsi vs Coke!

Complete with logo-plastered starships!

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Mike, and everyone else:

I agree that the ships are about 90% of what needs to be discussed. The other 10% is the timeline and background. Tos's suggestion on how to do that i.e. "Figure out where we want to be to make the Trade War period as fun and interesting as possible." seems to me to need what you have suggested "focus on getting a playable ship designed."

I expect the Alpha and Omega races will meet during the trade wars. Those wanting "weird looking ships with no recognizable racial flavor, etc." can build them for the Omegan's.

Look in CL31 page 33. The options for who comes to invade next is open so is the timeline.

It seems to me any new race that SVC creates will "play nice with GW and X1," then any ships we suggest have a better chance of fitting with the timeline and history stuff.

I do like the timeline and history stuff and enjoy discussing what might be but has limited use in helping design X2 ships. It is all conjectural.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 08:49 am: Edit

Actually I think the timeline stuff is important and does mould ships.
The 12Ph-1 OR 8Ph-5 thing is really an offshoot of the Treaty which is quite simply pure timeline.

The timeline (like when the Xorks invade) shall influence ships ( refit years and the like ) but also the ships shall influence the timeline...wars being exasibated by arms races.


To that end, yes the timeline is fun and talking about the social and political structures of the time period can provide a lot of light for the scenarios and ships of the time but isn't so important that it should be a bone of contention.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 11:58 am: Edit

Joe,

The problem is that conflict is easily built into almost any timeline.

Any timeline we want to have even the slimmest hope of acceptance must encompass several bits of information or important questions.

Standard-tech ships must still figure prominently, even as the cutting-edge of technology advances to X2.

How to the empires recover their borders after they evict the andros?

What role does the LMC play?

Where do the Trade Wars fit?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 01:28 am: Edit

John, in answer to your questions, I think:

1.) The GPs keep the fleets they have, upgrading as much as possible, junking what is no longer useful, and police their borders ("keep the bad guys out"). X1 leads the battle groups; X2 is the "cavalry" (when it becomes available). Internally, Police/National Guard forces have their work cut out for them. I think there is still a role for heavies like DNs and BCHs, they will fill the presence/stability role of missing Starbases and Battlestations (in the "reconstruction" areas). I think CVs will prove useful against pirates and other miscreants. (etc.)

2.) I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about the Magellanics to answer that.

3.) The "Trade Wars" would be a general title given to the "reconstruction" period, punctuated by various internal and border conflicts, as the nations rebuild. It could be thought of as a sort of a cross between the post-American Civil War Reconstruction Era and the Cold War Era (maybe with a little GWOT tossed in the mix). The post-Trade Wars period could be marked by "the old wounds" coming to the forefront again, another extra-Galactic/-Cosmic incursion, and (maybe eventually) finally the Xork Invasion (assuming they're not just propaganda).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Brodie,

1) That may not be enough of a role for standard tech. We're thinking of a technical progression the way we have one today where "old tech" becomes obsolete and is discarded.

We may want to go to a vertical fleet model instead. Standard-tech is easy to make, low-cost. X1 and later X2 for an "elite corps" for quick-response combat, taking over the roles of fast-ships, sweeping mines (not laying them) and other specialty roles they do well.

We've just got through talking about how difficult it would be post-andro to exercize effective control of most empire boarderlands. One approach is to build super-elite long-patrolling X2 ships (which personally smacks too much of Supplement 2 for me to ever be comfortable) or we see the Return of the Frigate. Standard-tech, nothing special. A small, cheap unit that can be built en-masse to show the flag and defend interests against small threats.

It might be amusing to consider that easily-built, easily-maintained standard-tech might well survive in a non-war environemnt better than quirky, difficult X1 does. X1 morphs into X2 as the "elite" role becomes more fleshed out.

2) Me either. That's why I asked the question. What little I have picked up suggests the four megellanic races got destroyed wholesale.

3) The Trade Wars should have a character of their own, rather than being "more of the same". Might be a nice excuse for Fed-Kzinti or Klingon-Lyran dust-ups. (dare we suggest that tempers flare between the Feds and Gorns?!? Say it ain't so!)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 08:00 pm: Edit

We may want to go to a vertical fleet model instead. Standard-tech is easy to make, low-cost. X1 and later X2 for an "elite corps" for quick-response combat, taking over the roles of fast-ships, sweeping mines (not laying them) and other specialty roles they do well.
I'ld argue that wartime overproduction lead to a situation like the Fed CL.
Mothballed some, scuttled others and converted others to less combat oriented roles as the CA came into promanance.
X2 should be as much a product of the man-power shortages that come with the end of 20 odd years of war as it is a product of high-tech inventions...or atleast the X2 period ought be that way.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 12:50 am: Edit

John and Brodie,

I like the idea of a "vertical fleet model" with standard tech ships still forming the bulk of a fleet. I have suggested that post GW standard tech designs would still be improved such as a CA version of the CB.

How do the empires recover their borders? Through conflict. Take a look at SH20 Romulan Privateers: Secret raids againat Fed and Gorn targets. The ships were "Offically" under the command of independant noblemen. I think that style of warfare will be common during the trade wars. Do you think the races would develop a "trade war" cruiser variant from a standard tech CA?

There are a number of questions about the LMC that are unanswered. The C5 background will may shed light on this area.

As far as timeline verses ship designs for the game; The conflict creates the missions for the ships. In the post Andro war era the war optimized designs would be less effective.