Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through July 04, 2013	25		07/11 11:15am
	Archive through August 23, 2013	25		02/05 11:44pm

My $0.02 on the matter is that 3 of the 7 races in the last category, people would be largely upset if they got shafted. If you get a major disparity in the array of ships available, it makes it hard for people to find campaign equity and for very popular races I'm not sure that alienating a portion of the Omega fans is a wise course of action.

Drex are one of the more popular of the Omega races (least that I've seen).

Souldra and the RYN are also popular in groups I know because they are so vastly different than the rest of the pack. Both of these powers have a limited temporal footprint on Omega, so depending on when the 2nd GW was (can't remember) a lot of their ships would be conjectural. I don't think that's an issue though because it's about making these races campaign playable, not necessarily making them modeling the 2nd GW for them.

The other 4, I'm not sure would be solidly missed ... except maybe by ISC fans (in the case of the Singer).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Another thought for future consideration:

After the first eleven Omega empires were published in SFB, a number of new weapons and upgrades were presented for a handful of them in later issues of Captain’s Log (like the Vari particle splitter torpedo) or incorporated into later Omega module rule books (like the “caseless” mode for the antimatter cannon, or the Alunda whipcrack torpedo).

Also, it is noted that certain Omega empires either acquiring technologies from others (such as the FRA gaining access to tachyon missiles, or the Worb salvaging antiproton technology from a number of Ymatrian wrecks) or taking a sample of a pre-existing technology type in order to adapt it into something new (such as the Hiver development of sting torpedoes, or the reported Paravian development of quantum wave mines based on Nucian tactical mine samples).

Has this process been completed for the in-print Omega empires, or is there scope for any further pre-X innovations or technology transfers?

To give one example, could the agreement which provided TM technology to the FRA in Y181 have had a reciprocal aspect, in which the Mæsrons might have gained access to Short-Range Cannons for use with their fleet escorts?

(From a game design perspective, I noted that Bruce Graw’s plans for the Vulpa Confederacy in CL36 included them gaining access to certain Nucian and/or Vari technologies, presumably in order to help further distinguish their ships from those flown by the "loyal" Mæsrons; though none of that is set in stone at this point. So I was wondering if a limited degree of access to the SRC might be a way to give the New Alliance an additional support option in response, one which would be useful when dealing with TM-armed opponents such as the Vulpa.)

Alternatively, might one of the active empires have developed an alternate firing mode for a currently-existing weapon, or perhaps some new weapon type entirely, with or without aid from a foreign source?

Or, at this point, would there be no real need or benefit in expanding the list of options for the current factions any further than they have been already?

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 07:19 pm: Edit

I fear with Bruce no longer involved with Omega its all moot now

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Well...

For what it's worth, I'm not willing to give up hopes for more Omega files in SFB, or for getting a chance to see the FC Omega project move forward, just yet.

In the meantime, I want to try and get as many ducks in a row as I can, though I'm not sure how many of them would be left standing in the event that they be put under serious scrutiny.

By James Everett (Jetedguy) on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 11:44 pm: Edit

I would like to see some R modules to flesh out the current empires. Based on the conversation above it could be done in 3 groups of 7 with an additional one showing what Omega Sector battle stations and star bases looked like.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 12:42 am: Edit

Things armed with phaser-4 equivalents would be nice to see added to Omega, imo. I'd certainly like to see an equivalent to an R-module with such things as well as stuff that is more or less equivalent to Alpha Octant general war stuff.

By Stephen Parrish (Steveparrish) on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Is any progress being made on Omega new ships and races? Is there any serious work being done, or are they all now completely on the back burner?

I realize that the Omega sector is marginal now in terms of sales, and that a real problem are the counters. Would it be possible to do more Omega stuff like the Andromedan threat file, with rules and SSDs but no counters?

I am just wondering. I would really like to see more Omega stuff.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 10:53 pm: Edit

Large Omega bases would be sweet.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, May 20, 2016 - 08:51 pm: Edit

With a number of requests for "speed-30" and/or "wartime" Omega hulls popping up over in the CL52 ship nominations file, I thought it might be a good opportunity to revisit some of the concepts involved here in this thread.

For anyone who may be interested, I tried to take a look earlier in this thread (see the archive through July 4, 2013) with a number of questions in mind:

*Once the first Omega "speed-30" cruiser engines appear in Y173, can a given empire install these upgrades to their "middle years" ships?
*If they can't, are they able to build new ships to "peacetime" standards with these new engines in mind - as seen with the Vari command cruiser and wing cruiser in Captain's Log #23?
*Later on, once the first Omega "war" classes appear in Y187, can a given empire develop their own "wartime" hulls in response?

(I also speculated on what any or all of the above might mean once the first Omega X1-ships appear in Y198, but that may not need to be picked over just yet.)

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In this case, I wanted to use the Probr as a potential case study, since their "erector-set" mentality allows for a common set of components to be accounted for.

The "middle years" Probr fleet is built from one or more "central" hulls, paired with a set of small, medium, or large wings:

The FF has a single "frigate" hull (with four C Warp boxes) and a pair of small wings (each with three L or three R warp boxes apiece) - a total of 10 Warp boxes on a MC 1/3 ship.

The DD has a single "destroyer" hull (with eight C Warp boxes) and a pair of small wings (again with 3 L/R warp boxes apiece) - a total of 14 Warp boxes on a MC 1/2 ship.

The CL has the same "destroyer" hull (again with 8 C Warp boxes) and a pair of medium wings (each with five L or five R warp boxes apiece) - a total of 18 Warp boxes on a MC 2/3 ship.

The CA has a pair of "destroyer" hulls (with a total of 16, or 8x2, C Warp boxes) and a pair of medium wings (again with 5 L/R warp boxes apiece) - a total of 26 Warp boxes on a MC 1 ship.

While the DN has three "destroyer" hulls stitched together (with a total of 24, or 8x3, C Warp boxes) and a pair of large wings (each with six L or six R warp boxes apiece) - a total of 36 Warp boxes on a MC 1 1/2 ship.

(Each of the above move costs apply before the ships drop their wings.)

This produces a "sliding scale" of maximum warp speeds, which get slower the larger one's ship gets.

Other "middle years" Omega fleets, like the Mæsrons and Koligahr, follow a similar pattern - though the FRA get a slight bump on this speed curve due to their Alpha Octant design heritage.

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So, if we assume that the Probr are allowed to refit their "middle years" ships starting at some point after Y173, what then?

Firstly, I would say that none of these "plus refits" would be universal. The volatility of Omega coupled with the precarious nature of the Probr economy would prevent them from upgrading as many older ships (or from building as many new ships with these upgrades pre-installed) as they would like. This would have the handy side-effect of keeping the current crop of printed "middle years" Probr SSDs valid, since they would perhaps refer to ships which the Probr never got around to upgrading.

Secondly, there is the question of exactly how such an upgrade could work. Messing around with the wings seems to be a problem for the Probr more often than not. So I might suggest that the simplest option would be to have them apply engine refits to the "frigate" and "destroyer" hulls themselves.

I'd have the "frigate" hull's C Warp engine upgraded from 4 to 6 boxes, and the "destroyer" hull's C Warp engine upgraded from 8 to 10 boxes. This would bring the total warp boxes on the FF from 10 to 12; the DD from 14 to 16; the CL from 18 to 20; the CA from 26 to 30; and the DN from 36 to 42.

(That last one is not an accident. The Y173 timeline entry speaks of "speed-30" cruisers; there's no guarantee that this would apply right away to Size Class 2 ships. Even so, having a Probr "DN+" go at Speed 28 would still count as a useful upgrade.)

The resulting ships would, ironically, be at a higher proportional risk of having to deal with those awkward Probr turn mode rules. But then, perhaps that might encourage the Probr to start from scratch when the time comes for them to construct a "wartime" fleet; maybe a new wave of "war" classes (DW, CW, BCH, DNH) might appear with a new balances between their respective L, C, and R Warp engine connfigurations. And perhaps a "wartime" Probr DNH might be their first Size Class 2 ship capable of fighting at speed 31.

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Using this template, I could see certain other empires (such as the Mæsrons and Koligahr) going through a similar set of upgrades - with the same number of added warp boxes (2, 4, or 6) spread across their ships' respective warp engine configurations to reach the same overall total. (So a Mæsron or Koligahr "CA+" would go from 2x13 to 2x15 warp boxes, for example.) Their respective dreadnoughts would also be capped at Speed 28 (which, in the case of the Mæsron or Koligahr "DN+", would go from 2x18 to 2x21 warp boxes respectively), even once the "plus" refits are installed. And as with the Probr, none of those refits would be universal either, again so as not to invalidate the current crop of published Omega SSDs.

On the other hand, the likes of the Vari seem to be obliged to build new "peacetime" hulls that can fight at speed 31, as evidenced by the CC and WC data in CL23 - but then, part of the dynamic of Omega is that not everyone gets everything they might have wished for technology-wise.

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Does any of the above seem like it might work? Or are there other ways of moving forward that you would refer to see instead?

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, May 20, 2016 - 10:06 pm: Edit

Interesting ideas, would the Probr perhaps add a new CL hull to the mix at some point down the road, perhaps a "War" hull upgrade?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, May 20, 2016 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Personally, I would envision the Probr as constructing an entirely new set of "wartime" hull and wing sections, designed from the outset to combine with each other - but not with the older hulls or wings. (Or perhaps it could be that the engineering required was such that mixing old and new sections was not viable.)

On the flip side, I think it might be interesting to have those Omega factions which develop both "war" hulls and X-ships struggle, at least initially, with constructing their "wartime" hull designs to "peacetime" standards (so as to install first-generation X-technology onto them).

Or to put it another way, it could be that the Mæsrons (to give one example) might be in a position to produce a DDX out of a DD, or rather out of a potential speed-30 "DD+", once first-generation X-tech becomes available to them in Y198. But, under this suggestion, it might take them a few years longer - perhaps even after Operation Concerted Strike was over and done with - before they could figure out how to re-build their DW design into a DWX.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 02:05 pm: Edit

In addition to the various "speed-30" discussions noted above, I was thinking about how best one might organize the "new units for old empires" books - or, perhaps, how best to re-organize the approach to Omega modules in general.


In my view, part of the original problem with Omega in SFB was not just that there were too many empires offered with too thin a spread across each one, but that many of these empires were not grouped together in a manner which made sense thematically. It probably would have been wiser to sit on the Loriyill until they could be grouped together with the Singers and Souldra, to give one example.

To use a comparison with the Alpha Octant, the Lyrans and Hydrans work best when offered as a pair, rather than being split across separate SFB (or FC or Starmada) modules.

Given that there are quite a number of new units that need to be created in order to bring the Omega empires up to campaign compatibility, and that much of the work done in the initial wave of SFB Omega modules has since been lost (and therefore may need to be reconstituted at some point in time, even before deciding whether any kind of "plus" refits would be called for), I think it might be better to re-frame how the "core" and "expansion" concept used in the Alpha Octant (and to a latter extent in the LMC, or could possibly apply in Triangulum) should apply in Omega.


To put it another way, I think it might be an idea to take the Mæsrons (as the "central" Omega faction), the four surrounding Superpowers (Koligahr, Trobrin, Vari, and Probr), the FRA (as the "gateway" faction from an Alpha Octant perspective), and a "wandering/mercenary" faction (perhaps the Iridani, since they are less rules-heavy than the Bolosco or Zosmans); and to do a pair of books (akin to the Basic Set and Advanced Missions SSD books, with a little of Module R1 sprinkled in for good measure) which when combined bring all seven up to campaign compatibility. The first book would handle the "peacetime" hulls and mission variants (and/or any "speed-30") upgrades required), while the second book might cover "war" hulls and variants - with various empire-specific transports and bases spread across these two volumes.

(Not every empire needs every hull type or variant - the Vari may or may not be in a position to build starbases, for example. So the overall number of SSDs required can be tailored to match each empire's needs without going too far overboard.)


Once those were done, each subsequent batch of modules would focus on 3-4 empires at a time, with the aim of bringing each one up to campaign compatibility while grouping them thematically with their historical rivals.

For example, the Drex would make the most sense when grouped with the Ymatrians and Worb; the Hivers with the Alunda and Branthodons; the Loriyill with the Souldra and Singers (as noted earlier); and so on and so forth.

That might mean it could take quite a while to get through all of the current crop of published empires, and even longer to move forward with the "lost futures" empires (unless it was okay to not have to wait until all of the "new units for old empires" modules were done before getting around to those - or, perhaps, to combine "old" and "new" factions together; I could see the Zosmans as working well thematically with the Bolosco). But in the long run, this might be a more structured and consistent way to set the Omega Octant on a more stable footing going forward.


I should note that my long-term hopes for the FC Omega project run along similar lines.

If the stars aligned in that project's favour, I would keep the current group of five playtest empires (Mæsron, Trobrin, Probr, Iridani, FRA) as the "Klingon Border"-esque starter set; add the Koligahr, Vari, and perhaps another "wandering" faction as a "Romulan Border"-esque expansion; and then move on with themed groups of 3 or 4 new empires at a time (such as the Drex-Ymatrian-Worb grouping mentioned above).

Of course, the dynamics in FC are quite different, and there is no guarantee that the FC Omega project will move forward - or, if it does, that it would look anything like this. But I'd like to think that a more focused approach would serve Omega well in both game systems.


So, does any of that sound reasonable, or has the die already been cast in such a way that some other approach would be needed instead?

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 08:35 pm: Edit

I really doubt but there would be a wholesale restructure to the omega products at this point, as much as it might make sense. I think we are lucky if we ever get another module again. Hope I am wrong.

Another problem is the omega PFTs were done on obsolete hulls, and I imagine the omega version of operation unity in CL 51 has the same problem.