(P__.0) Dyson Sphere.

(P__.1) General Rules.

Dyson Spheres in literature are a construction of advanced civilizations that built a sphere around a star. the distance of the sphere to the star is (more or less) the distance from earth to its star (an astronomical unit) such that the energy reaching the inside surface of the sphere is about equal to that experienced on the surface of earth on a sunny day.

The thickness of the sphere (plus or minus the effects of centripedal force) equate to the 'G' forces one experiences on the surface of a M type planeet (such as earth).

The Dyson sphere is a hollow object, the shell of which generally 10,000 to 24,000 miles thick encompassing a star. Water and atmosphere are normally present on the interior surface of the dyson sphere in such levels as to approximate that of a M type planet.

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Ok, the above was posted to explain quickly just what a dyson sphere is.

The concept of a "natural occuring" Dyson Sphere is predicated on the stellar annomoly that is the basis for "blackfoot Pass" see scenario #SH39.0, module S1 or (for those that have it) Module B, and SH20.0 The Battle of Blackfoot pass (captains Log#1)

simply stated, on the border between the Federation and Klingon space, there was a particularly dense asteroid field of incredible mass of asteroidal matter... far too thick to allow starships (or anything else) to pass through...except for the long, narrow and winding tunnel like passage.

The object measured more than 100 parsecs long.

This proposal assumes that the asteroidal matter was created at the same time as the rest of the Galaxy was created (came into being, just happend to exist or what ever your personal favored "big bang theory" of existance happens top call for).

Since the matter was created at the same time as the near by stars were generated, it would appear reasonable that there are stars (1? 10 100? 1,000?) also in the asteriodal zone in more or less the same numbers as are present in other areas of the galaxy.

Since the mass of asteroids are impassible, it may not matter much... but what if one of those stars in the mass of asteriodal matter eventually experienced a super nova?

perhaps a series of gravity waves generated by the suns descent into Nova "pushed" the asteroids away from the star...eventually the Nova explosion releases a mass of plasma energy equal to millions or tens of millions of plasma torpedos... that melted the asteroids in a uniform continuous process that formed the shell of the Dyson Sphere... leaving a stellar object in the center... perhaps a black hole, perhaps a "dwarf star" (white, blue, red or brown...) that still burns and gives off light and heat... though at a lessor intensity than what it did prior to the nova...

Such a construct would have the surface area of tens of thousands of M class planets (or more...) if enough water and Oxygen were present... the bounty of a functional Dyson Sphere would eventually support more population, resources and industrial capacity than all of the races and planets yet discovered in the alpha quadrant.

Such a prize would be worth fighting for...

There are a number of issues that need to be dealt with in SFB's to game with a Dysons Sphere (to say nothing of what it would do to F&E...)

First would be that the surface of the dysons sphere would be a solid row of hexes on the map that is impassible to all objects (and far to thick to transport through....)

Any ship entering the same hex as a dyson sphere is deemed to have crashed into the the sphere and would be destroyed (just as if it crashed into a planet).

PDU's could be placed on the exterior surface of the Dysons sphere.

To gain access into the interior of the Sphere would require extensive tunnelling through the crust of the sphere... that is to say a tunnel 10,000 to 24,000 miles long... probably with hatches to keep the interior atmosphere contained (if any).

Now, the discovery of Blackfoot pass occured some time around year 183 (atleast thats when the Federation and the Klingons found out about it... the Orions used the pass for smuggling much earlier...

What if a hatch leading to the Dysons sphere was discovered by one or both of the neighboring races (Federation or Klingon) oh say after year 205?

the land rush for ariable land in a practicable Dysons sphere would make the Oklahom Land Rush seem like a tea party...

Comments, suggestions, ideas?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:06 pm: Edit

Jeff
I want to say at the outset that a dyson sphere either natural or constructed offers a unique environment for space combat which was why I sent SVC a scenarios outlining a Dyson sphere for the Holdfast back when I was the Tholian JCF back in the late 80's (That Dyson sphere was considerably bigger than the one today with it being about equal to the orbital diameter of Mercury to achieve the proper temperature) so I am excited at the notion of combat in that environment-the idea that there's an actual WALL in space...

Unique challenges.

Having said that I find the idea of a naturally occurring body as you suggest VERY improbable. Improbable in coming into being and improbable in having the tensile structure to stay intact given the gravitational situation.

May I suggest that instead you call it an "artifact" built by a race long gone? Perhaps a race that eventually abandoned physical form for forms of pure energy.

regards
Stacy

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:49 am: Edit

Improbable? Not Impossible? Hell, SFB is science fiction based on near Impossible. Why not?

By Robert Hyrneson (Hyrneson) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:21 am: Edit

Because even Freeman Dyson himself said that the idea was flawed.
For SFB, if you consider the scale correctly, a sphere at 1 AU radius, to be accurate, draw a line along one hex line of your map. That is the surface (to scale) of the Dyson sphere.

RH

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:04 am: Edit

I actually had dinner with Freeman Dyson back in the late 80's. He said that it was "not possible" that a Dyson sphere could exist in nature - and that many physics and engineering problems that are considered impossible today would have to be overcome to build one.

However, this is a game - so do what you like.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:19 am: Edit

I think an engineered "rosette" of many planets would be interesting. A series of planets, perhaps 5 hexes apart, in a line across the map. Interesting dynamics of maneuver.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Stacy Brian Bartley:

Artifact, naturally occurring...One mans floor is another mans ceiling as the song goes (clipart{happy}

My purpose in posting this was to generate discussion. That said, I am not the one that needs to be convinced, that would be SVC.

The existance of the mass of asteroids that forms black foot pass is an astronomic absurdity (IIRC the comments in one of the scenarios correctly) maybe it is the area that the "old Kings" used for their work shop in building or renovating planets and other artifacts... Maybe it is the junk pile where failed dyson spheres were junked prior to reclaimation by the Old kings... maybe there is a "ring World" sitting their (ala Niven's ring world engineers books) Whatever...

IMO if players want to play using a Dyson Sphere, there should be an optional rule that allows it... just as there are for things like Positronic Flywheels.

Glenn: Thats one of the things that we could discuss!

Robert: exactly.

Ted: Ok, its not possible for a dyson sphere to occur in nature... I wonder what Freeman Dyson whould have made of the conditions at Black foot Pass?

Michael: A "rosette" of planets 5 hexes appart is an interesting concept... not too much differnent (I suppose) from Nivens "ring World" artifact... heck, maybe its part of the construction process... assemble the worlds, get them aligned into the propoer orbit... keep adding worlds until a continuous ring is formed and ste to spinning at the proper orbital speed...fuse and melt said worlds and create a "trough" to keep the atmosphere from escaping...

(oh, my head is beginning to hurt from the concept!

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Jeff
I'm not trying to pee in the punch. And you are absolutely correct that Blackfoot Pass is a scientific absurdity and given that I suppose that a "naturally" occurring Dyson sphere isn't that big of a leap. I just cringe at piling absurdity upon absurdity.

Which is NOT to say rules pertaining to a Dyson sphere SHOULDN'T be published—on the contrary we know of at least ONE in the Milky Way (In the SFU) and others in M-81. Which is why I suggested the notion of an "artifact" and abandoned sphere (perhaps abandoned by the Organians after leaving mere physical bodies behind...?). So my vote is YES we need such rules. Although many of them are covered by existing rules

But as I have said elsewhere a Dyson sphere would be unlikely to be built by a race with Warp Drive-except as an act of hubris. So it is likely that whatever race that built it would either still be there—probably with a Big Honkin' Space Gun—or the race that built has vanished.

So, my vote is that YES the rules should be defined (or the existing rules cross indexed) my only caveat is that if given my druthers I'd rather see it being artifice than a one in a quadrillion natural fluke. But that doesn't change my vote of being YES.

As for a Ringworld—what orientation are you approaching it from? While a 3 D Dyson sphere is easy to present in 2D SFB a Ringworld is a different creature.

A Rosette is an excellent idea but again as far as I can see on first glance existing rules would cover it. A Larry Niven Smoke Ring/Gas Torus ecosystem would also make for a fascinating starship combat arena and again would be easily constructed from existing rules.

So maybe what needs to be done is a Captain's Log article perhaps as an addenda to the Simulator Module called Unique Spatial Combat Environments with each of these defined by the existing rules referenced. The idea would be that starship commanders should be ready for any environment however unlikely.

Something that has crossed my mind is that astronomers believe that Uranus has an ocean 10,000 kilometers deep. How do starships operate underwater? Got to be a bit more interesting than mere atmosphere. And also there aren't likely to be TOO many places in the galaxy where an ocean would be even a fraction that deep but on Uranus there it is. Might be a good place to hide or set up an ambush.

regards
Stacy

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Heck, for all I know, the asteriod mess near Black Foot Pass is actually the address of the "masters" and the mass of asteroids froms the "masters game room"!

Whatever you want it to be, I guess it is pretty open (until the steves decide to define or explain it... that is!)

I'll have to think about a captains log thing though... not sure how to approach that in a way that (WON'T) (emphasis, not shouting) send SPP into conniptions over rules contradictions!

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Jeff
What rules contradictions? As I said everything about a Dyson sphere (that I can think of anyway) is covered by EXISTING rules in section P?

regards
Stacy

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Well, for one thing there is the possibility of a ship manuvering outside of a Dyson Sphere at the same time as a ship manuvers inside of the Dyson Sphere... if there were a large enough hatch... one could posit combat through the hatch at any weapons range possible for the various weapons on both ships... or worse, what if the ship tried to "use the sphere for partial cover" while still claiming that it could shoot thru the hatch... (Don't you just love 'rules lawyers'?!?)... how does one handle the hatch?... is it a tractor repulsor thing that is air tight so the atmosphere doesnt 'leak out'? does the drone encounter thrugh the "hatch tractor thingee" cause the drone to go inert (due to contact with a "freindly" tractor?

If the Hatch isnt a tractor thingee what kind of hinge & mechanical "door operner" would one have to have? is it on tracks like a sliding door?

Heck, how do you manipulate something a couple of thousand miles tall and wide...and how thick would it have to be? what would it have to be made of that would allow it to be "air tight" but still mobile enough to let in ships, asteroids and anything else needed to "terra form" the interior surface of the dyson sphere?

Come to that...how thick would the atmosphere of a Dyson Sphere be? the same as a planet? deeper? what effects would a straight line shot with phasers at a target have if both ships were 10,000 kilometers (1 hex) above the surface of the sphere and 75 hexes apart? what planet has 75 hexes of atmosphere on a straight line of sight? are the effects cumulative?

Or how do you use seeking weapons? if the launching ship retains a lock on thru the hatch...

Better yet, do andromedan displacement devices function thru a Dyson Sphere? what about Temporal elevator?

Can a Klingon staisis equipped ship effectively "stop the hatch" by using its staisis field generator?

lots of things that look simple might prove to be a little complicated in terms of the game.

Oh well, fortunately it just an intellectual exercise for now... SPP neednt get concerned unless SVC decides that he needs to get it published...

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Rules for a Dyson sphere could probably be relatively short and sweet - and presented in an individual scenario in which the sphere was involved.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Ted, true, but then we wouldnt of had the excuse for such a fun discussion!

Consider that area of the exterior of a Dyson Sphere (like the Tholian Holdfast?!?) with such a large defined surface, there could be many many more ground bases than current rules allow on a planets hex side... I'm wondering if Star Wars Death Star might not be a reasonable pattern for a Dysons Sphere defenses...

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 06:43 pm: Edit

The outside of a dyson sphere would have the same amount of surface as a solid object (planet) the same size.

Of course, a true Dyson sphere is MUCH larger than any planet. The one that's been described for Tholia is much smaller (in part due to it being an artifical star in the middle so the inside of the sphere doesn't have to be as far away from the heat/radiation/gravity effects) but still quite large.

The inside of the Dyson Sphere, if ships could enter, would have about the same amount of surface area as the outside. It would also make that "map edge barrier" a bit more realistic.

By John Erwin Hacker (Godzillaking) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Do the Tholians have a "TRUE DYSON SPHERE" or is it just a facsimile of one? Just wondering that's all and I was also wondering if an SSD is ever going to be made of the "THOLIAN ONE"?

"THE GODZILLAKING"

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Well, IIRC the income of a major planet in F&E is 5 econ points... and I think the Tholian capital generates 20 econ points by itself (total tholian income starts at 22 EP per F&E game turn) so it seems that the tholian "Mini Dyson Sphere" would have the capacity to gerenate 4 Major planets worth of Econ points.

For some reason I'm thinking that the area of a Dyson Sphere is on the order of 10,000 earth equilvilents... (though I may be misremmbering that part).

It would seem that the Tholians got shortchanged by some (10,000-4=9,996 major worlds some where along the line.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:18 pm: Edit

John
What's a TRUE Dyson sphere? If it requires a true star then "no". If a pseudo star suffices then "yes".

Inside it would be too warm even for our favorite reptile without an environment suit
regards
Stacy

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:19 am: Edit

Jeff

•Any presentation of an interior of a "true" dyson sphere would be so large that the curvature would be so slight that the length of a "macro hex side" would extend anywhere from dozens to hundreds (if not THOUSANDS) of tactical maps. The one I created for submission back in the 80's had an interior space equal to the orbit of the planet Mercury (29825290000 kilometers-evened out from perihelion to aphelion). I do not have the figures in front of me it extended for FAR more maps than I possessed.

•The depth of the atmosphere would depend on the nature of the race that built it. If it were human like it would be fairly shallow. If the Hydrans built it the depth could vary anywhere from 1 hex to 7 or 8 (or more). So it would be defined by a scenario to scenario (Or Dyson sphere to Dyson sphere) basis.

•Any hatch worthy of mention on a Dyson sphere would break a lock on of any seeking weapon. If memory serves me correctly planets depending on their size can...

•Do displacement devices etc go through a dyson sphere? Probably unless it is made of something not covered previously in the SFU. Impervium? Neutronium? I mean you can displace through a planet.

•Stasis field generators? How big is the hatch? Is it bigger than the field? Well that's a question: has a stasis field ever been projected on an object that extends outside the field? I would say if such a circumstance occurred it would nullify the field (SPP I'm NOT trying to make a rules ruling just expressing my thoughts on the matter. Obviously final conclusion is up to you guys). If it smaller than that yes. But do NOT seriously expect that a Dyson sphere would only have ONE door (ST:NG aside).

As a general observation I would say a Dyson sphere doesn't NEED a hatch. A sufficiently high "lip" on the inside would extend above the atmosphere-much like a moon pool in an underwater base, Indeed the Dyson sphere I originally submitted to SVC back in the 80's had large ridges extending 70 thousand K above the interior surface every million K or so to confine atmosphere into distinct regions in case of a major breach. Also if I had a large opening like that I'd have my Big Honkin' Space Guns pointed through that with an extension cord direct to the star-say a battery of 500 P-IV.

Again don't interpret ANY of this as opposition to have Dyson spheres defined in SFB. I just think a lot of the rules are already defined. You just need a brief cross reference with the existing rules-in much the same way a comet is defined for example.

regards
Stacy

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 01:06 am: Edit

I would say as an after thought the phase device of the Soudra would almost certainly allow them to pass through the surface of a Dyson sphere (maybe that's why they developed them?).
regards
Stacy

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 01:25 am: Edit

There's a pair of books with a civilization built on Dyson Spheres ("The Ring of Charon" and "The Shattered Sphere" by Roger Allen). A slightly odd plotline, but there's some interesting points on movement and combat in such an environment. (The Spheres are for storing planets in, so they'll be safe, see...)

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 02:07 am: Edit

Steve
i read the books in question—and they were great! But the planets weren't IN the spheres but orbiting them.
regards
Stacy

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Stacy,

It's been a few years since I read them - now that I think about it, I remember them being outside. Do the books sound similar to what's happening to the Republic of Aurora? (Not that we'd ever be able to convince SVC to put a Sphere there, however.)

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Steve
Superficially to an extent. Although no intelligence force has been shown to be behind the transposition of the various colony worlds. Although myself I am skeptical about a naturally occurring phenomenom being the source. The masters? The Organians to prove a point about peaceful co-existence to the Alpha Quad races?

A sphere in the Omega sector? Hmmm. I doubt SVC would go for it but it's a BIG galaxy and only a fraction of it has been accounted for.

However, I have GOOD news for you, I checked Roger McBride Allen's website and he states a THIRD volume in "The Hunted Earth" series IS forthcoming sometime in the next couple of years or so. Which I am looking forward to having recently re-read The Ring of Charon and The Shattered Sphere.

regards
Stacy

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 03:50 pm: Edit

There is the sargasso sector...and IIRC SVC did say things could happen there that wouldnt occur anywhere else...he was talking about a remnent population of Carnivons in that case... but why not a dyson Sphere?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 05:55 pm: Edit

'As a general observation I would say a Dyson sphere doesn't NEED a hatch.'

Fist of God...