Yes, class by class. The X2CA has P-5's, but less than the CX has P-1's. Not much better shielding, no more control, and actually a tad less power. The X2DD is the old "lollypop" design; it makes economies of scale sense for the Fed, using the same engine on the XCA and the XDD, and it's a flavor thing...always liked the old lollypop ship. So, it has a bit less power than the DDX, only six phasers, and two photons plus two option mounts for better flexibility. 20 point heavy photons work well with those ships, especially given the other improvements the photon got, such as the ability to choose at the moment of firing whether to use a standard warhead or a proxy.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 06:57 pm: Edit

SInce this is the photon thread, I'll try to keep it related. Mike, my take is a little different than yours regarding X2 ship classes. The 'patrolship class' functions as an equivalent in BPV to a GW CA or a X1 DD-but it is the size of a slightly heavy FF.

The 20 warhead photons, you have 2. Plus drones I assume.

Hmmm.....

I also, if you look at my comments in the X2FF thread, agree with the Idea of 'economies of scale' with the warp engines.

How is the arming? 2.5 + 2.5? for Standards?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Yup. 2.5 + 2.5. Again, though it has 2 at least...the other two option mounts can be photons, but can also be drones or Plasma-L's. Depends on the need.

We all have different takes, that's for sure. Me, I don't want X2 to be too powerful, so I tend to go with less but better stuff, a few nice new toys like shield regenerators and S-bridges, and that's about it. Your mileage may vary.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Can you do 2+3 or 3+2?

Sounds like a "yes"...

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 11:11 pm: Edit

Yes.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 04:21 am: Edit

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Quote:

We all have different takes, that's for sure. Me, I don't want X2 to be too powerful, so I tend to go with less but better stuff, a few nice new toys like shield regenerators and S-bridges, and that's about it. Your mileage may vary.

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By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:59 pm: Edit

What if the Feds finally got their simulator idea to work. Four photons on any Fed ship:

XCA - 24 point mega-photons (3+3)
XCL - 16 point standard photons (2+2)
XDD - 8 point mini-photons (1+1)

This may be a bit of a step down from X1, but:
"X2 photons, regardless of size, may be fast-loaded as standards, but cannot be fast-loaded as overloads."

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 08:15 am: Edit

Well, six photons would limit the roulette factor, and also be more damage resistant. It would also be cheaper.

If you want something new for the photons what do you think of the ability to fire in the second Hellbore step? Not only did they stole Gatling tech from the survivors of the "Expidition", but Hellbore tech too (the fire control systems actually). I have this as part of my X2 project, but will set limits because it would be powerfull.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 10:46 am: Edit

Carl, how would you handle the situation where a ship is attacked with hellbores and photons at the same time?

Enveloping hellbores have their own fire control step so that you know exactly what the shield strength is when calulating the "weakest shield".

Other than that, I don't see how this would be any different than allowing photons to be fired in the X-aegis step.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 12:27 pm: Edit

I found this quote from Mike Raper from 2/24/03

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Quote:

We're going in circles on this. Everything that's brought up to improve the photon gets shot down as either too complex or too powerful. Seems like there are two basic camps: make it more accurate or flexible, or make it more powerful.

Both sides have arguments for and against, many largely having to do with keeping the flavor of the photon (i.e., the big crunch, gamble weapon). The "accuracy first" side seems to feel that making the warheads any larger will be unfair to 0X and 1X ships or bases. The "damage first" side doesn't seem to mind that, given that there would be no improvment in the chance to hit and that the energy cost for more damage is prohibitively high. Given all that, I don't think we're going to come to a compromise without first seeing how it plays against the 2X disruptor. Personally, I'm in the "damage first" camp. 50% more damage may seem like too much, but that's also a huge increase in arming costs.

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 01:44 pm: Edit

• Leave X2 photons the equal of X1 photons.

By THERE on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 01:45 pm: Edit

AFAIK, Photons don't fire in te hX-aegis step at all. In other words no chance to get mizia effect in one impulse.

Good point about the Hellbore interaction. I'll pay close attention to it in my rules.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Tos, yeah. Same as before but more of them.
This would be fun for those who love the BCJ

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:11 pm: Edit

THERE: Per Board rules you must use your real name. Check Documentation/Board Posting Rules on the side bar at the left.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Loren, it's me. Some bug or another.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Couple of things.

I still believe most of what I said when I wrote that post (gads nearly three years ago!). However, since then I did do some playtesting and came to some other decisions.

The current version of the X2 photon I'm using, and that I tested a decent bit, changes in two ways from X1. First, it is more flexible. In particular:

• They can be fired as either a standard or a proximity when armed to standard levels, and the player may choose which to use at the moment of firing...no more declaring it in EA and hoping to get the shot you need.
• Fastloads can be held at the normal hold cost, and have a range increase from 15 to 20.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Carl:

Huh, that's weird. Cool...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Of course a very simple advance in technology for the Photon could be as simple as an expanded arc to 180 degrees.

To make it more interesting you could add that the expanded arc is only available when the ASIF is active (to absorb the latteral shock).
OR if no ASIF: Pay a shock-stabilization surcharge for each photon fired into the expanded arc equal to the hold cost for that warhead.

Beyond that leave them exactly as X1 Photons. If X2 Batteries can hold warp power over a turn then for the Feds that is a Photon upgrade in itself.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:22 pm: Edit

• Allow 180 degree photon arcs. What Loren said, but I said it with a bullet.
• Prox photons no longer are limited to range 9+.

I'm sure we could go on. There seem to be quite a number of suggestions for improving the photon.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:31 pm: Edit

NO expanded arc. As SVC has observed when one staffer proposed adding a pack of batts and power to every ship (so they could het on rsp); the fun, the challenge, comes out of using skills and tactics to get around limitations.
We achieve nothing making things easy.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Mike Raper;

A point about X1 photons - Fast loads can already be held if they have standard warheads. It's only fast loaded overloads that can't be held.

And a couple of questions - 1) Does your proposed torpedo have a proximity fused strength of 5? (I assume it does but just wanted to make sure.)

2) X1 photons can be fast overloaded but only up to 12 points. Can your proposed torpedo be fast overloaded all the way to 20, or does that still require two turns of arming?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Alan,

Yes, overloads are what I'm referring to. Any fast load can be held at the normal cost.

Proximities have a warhead strength of 5.

Fastloads are 12 points, just as with X1. Anything above that, as with X1, requires two turns. I want photons to remain a primarily 2 turn arming weapon.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 10:27 pm: Edit

For what it's worth, there's a lot of room for X2 Photons depending on what we do with the X2 Disruptor.

Six ( yes six ) overloaded Disruptors with built in UIM breaks even with four 15 point fastloaded photons at both R8 and R0 And is streets ahead of 24 point photons.

This is not to say that the X2 Photon should continue to be best used as an horrendously inaccurate disruptor but it just shows how much wiggle room there is.


On the otherhand Four Overloaded Disruptors with built-in UIM break even with 20 point Photons at both ranges.

I've been thinking lately that maybe we ought rework the INSTABILITY RULE to read that until a certain year, Photons just couldn't get more than 6 points of power placed in them in a turn and that after that year the Photons got the ability to load upto 8 points of warp power in a single turn but the photons became unstable and needed to be fired or discharged that turn.

In this way we have 24 point Photons that can't be end loaded changing into 24 point photons that can be end loaded coupled with the ability to 16 point fastload and this balances out quite nicely with the refit from 4 X2 Disruptors to 6 X2 Disruptors.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 06:53 pm: Edit

Since this has been a dormant topic since December 2005, how about a different approach?

Lets combine the "photon Freezer" tech found on Fed Carriers (and I suppose the same thing with Disrupter races like the Kzinti, Klingons and Lyrans, the Hydrans that have charges for its fighters heavy weapons, and plasma races fighters), with each individual races heavy weapon (in this case, the Federation).

Lets say photon tubes can be equipped with a "magazine clip" to load up to "X" number of photon charges (at 2 points of energy per turn for 2 turns) and the result is a standard photon charge.

the draw back is only standard shots may be used in the magazine (ie, no mixed loads), and if there are ANY rounds in the magazine, the ship may not load any overloads, proximity or (in the case of other races weapons such as plasma torpedos, enveloping torps or sabot etc).

What that gives you is the ability to "prep" a specified number of standard warhead heavy weapons, at the established energy costs, using the established time periods stated in the existing rules.

It would also give you the ability to fire that whole magazine "clip" of torpedos, 1 per each 32 impulse turn(none within 1/4 turn of the prior torpedo launch), without any "fast loading rules", cant mix overloads so the "close and hose" tactic isnt effetive and because the "freezer" function allows you the option of holding the standard warheads, your energy management tasks improve due to not having to pay for the loading of the heavy weapons.

Of course, you end up paying a heavy price for this, you lose the advanced options of using poximity photons and overloads... but then, if you "empty the clip" you are free to start loading torpedos normally using the existing rules.

Now the normal holding costs of keeping a torpedo in the launch tube ready to fire is (in the case of a normal standard photon) 1 point per tube... suppose the staisis charge for holding a standard photon charge is 0.1 point of energy each (or perhaps less as it is fighter technology and fighters dont have the same energy available that star ships have...)

(NOTE:I did not specify how many rounds in the "Magazine Clip" just used the term "X" to denote a variable number. Just to start the discussion, what say the clp magazine could be as many as 4 photons per tube... if that is not enough we could increase it, if it is too many we can reduce the number, if needed.)

One other thing, no new charges can be prepared once the magazine is loaded, until all of the rounds in it have been discharged (launched, fired etc).

If you absolutely have to have a overloaded or other type heavy weapon, you have to clear the clip before you can use the tubes normally.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 10:17 am: Edit

Do we want a Photon-self-loading-rifle or do we want to keep the Photon as having the flavour of a photon???