| By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, July 20, 2026 - 10:37 pm: Edit |
The PF+Fighters Heavy Hunter for Module J3, and the double PFs Heavy Hunter for Module K2? Figure that CVAs tended to be converted to the former and SCS to the latter - and/or it just came down to what a given empire felt it could better support on a case-by-case basis as the ships came in for conversion?
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 22, 2026 - 08:01 pm: Edit |
As a corollary to the ewquivalent posts over in the Module K2 proposal thread:
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For the Romulans, it might be welcome to see a number of heavy and/or scout carrier variant SSDs for the DemonHawk dreadnought. While not quite as dangerous as the "REDHawk" (A DMH with two SparrowHawk-E modules and a single SkyHawk-C module), there are nonetheless some interesting combinations that could be put together for the purposes of this product.
For example: perhaps a DMH variant SSD with a pair of SparrowHawk-U modules, plus a single SkyHawk-B module?
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Also, a range of carrier variants for various Alpha Octant heavy war destroyers, as well as for the Federation DLM, might help here - not least since both the Federation DLM and HDW can be given the infamous "-Z" (F-111 scout carrier) configurations, for use against the Andromedan Rapid Transit Network.
(In the case of the Federation DLM, see this proposed use for the Star Lion.)
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As for the Seltorians: might it be possible for them to get a battle carrier, or scout carrier, variant of their "three-boom" light dreadnought design here?
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, July 27, 2026 - 03:49 pm: Edit |
Proposal for Module J3: "Basic" Megapacks
Shortly after the introduction of megafighters, the various empires developed a "simplified" version that provided less capability but eliminated most of the maintenance problems that had plagued the "fully capable" packs. These more basic versions provided the speed improvements of standard megapacks but not the weapons upgrades or additional damage points. The advantages were that they were slightly cheaper than fully capable packs and also were not under the S8.328 deployment limits. All the fighters and bombers in a given force may have the basic packs. Note that although a bit cheaper than fully capable packs, they are still significantly more expensive than warp boost packs and that like fully capable packs, they cannot be fitted to shuttles other than fighters or bombers. So the warp boost packs still remained in service as well.
| By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, July 27, 2026 - 05:32 pm: Edit |
Sweet!
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, July 27, 2026 - 08:49 pm: Edit |
So ... basically this is a booster pack that doesn't double damage taken? Basically, you can have an unlimited number of fighters that are speed 32 with no negative effects other than cost. Am I reading this correctly?
And what is this cost going to be? Also, what is the YIS for this?
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, July 27, 2026 - 08:58 pm: Edit |
On the Seltorians, I don't see why you can't take the rear hull of the CVS (which has two booms) and just make three obvious variants:
- Only one boom (CVL).
- Three full booms (DNL-V).
- One boom and two half booms.
In all cases, the rear hull remains unchanged and only the booms change. All are incredibly obvious variants. I don't see any reason to not include all three of them.
As for the Demonhawk, I personally like:
DMH-BB: This is a straight up CVA with 24 fighters.
DMH-NB: This is a CV with 12 fighters but four extra phasers.
DMH-BC: This is a SCS that gets 16 fighters, instead of just 12, and still has a full flotilla. Fun!
All three of these would be good additions.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, July 27, 2026 - 09:41 pm: Edit |
Mike,
Yes you are reading it correctly, except... where are you getting "speed 32" from? Even fast late-war fighters would be speed 30, with mid-turn speed changes enabling them to move 31 hexes per turn. But how do you get the fighters to move speed 32?
Also, these "basic" versions would suffer the (J16.22) CLOSE MANEUVERS penalties for dogfighting and close combat maneuvering.
For YIS, I was thinking something like one year (or maybe two) after the empire in question gets megafighters.
For BPV, I presume ADB would determine that. But preliminarily I was thinking that fighters with a BPV of 10 or less (counting only the fighter, not drones or pods or anything extraneous) would pay one point less for a basic pack than for a fully capable pack. Fighters with BPV over 10 would pay two points less for a basic pack. Anything with BPV over 20 (mostly bombers) would pay three points less.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 27, 2026 - 10:15 pm: Edit |
I was also thinking of what, if any, "three-boom" upgrades to their area control ship design might look like.
Historically, the ACS Wind of Ordained Retribution was destroyed in battle with the Tholians in Y185, as per the Web of Deceit cover story and scenario in Captain's Log #36. So while any further upgrade of that particular hull would be strictly conjectural, perhaps another Size Class 3 hull in the Tribunal fleet might have been considered for such a conversion at some point in time.
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Personally, I was never much of a fan of the megafighter concept.
However, if one was looking for an iterative step between warp booster packs and "full" megafighter use, what about a prototype megapack which, in and of itself, did not double the speed of the fighter so equipped?
This would oblige the early adopters to choose between warp booster packs (with the penalties involved) or these prototype megapacks instead - and, thus, between added speed or additional firepower.
I could see such prototype packs being more commonly used at ground or space bases, rather than with carriers intended for "open space" combat. But, then again, even the latter don't always get to pick and choose their battles...
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, July 29, 2026 - 08:25 am: Edit |
Speed 32 was a typo. I meant speed 30.
But speed 30 fighters able to take full damage and with no deployment restriction would be extremely powerful. Potentially over-powered. But, I'm not the one you have to convince. That is just very powerful, though.
As for the Seltorians, I am not sure what "upgrades" are being referred to. In all cases, the rear hull will be the same, and just the number and types of booms used will change. You should be able to see what these ships would look like right now. There are no "upgrades". Just different numbers of booms, and thus the systems contained on those booms.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, July 29, 2026 - 12:07 pm: Edit |
Mike,
I agree that the ability to deploy a lot of speed 30 fighters without the warp boost pack vulnerability is powerful, but I don't think it's over-powered. This is happening during the period when X-ships and PFs are being deployed and, in my opinion, it is necessary to keep (some) fighters viable, at least for a while.
In general, the drone-using fighters may not need this. Once fast drones become "standard availability", Federation, Klingon, or Kzinti fighters can engage from long range, minimizing the effects of the increased vulnerability from WBPs. But everyone else; Hydrans, Tholians, Jindarians, Romulans, Gorns, ISC, and Vudar; need to get close to be effective. In an era with PFs and X-ships, this would be extremely difficult for fighters that are either speed 15 (or less - or more for the Stinger-X and (I think) a couple of oddballs) or are speed 30 but very fragile.
| By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, July 29, 2026 - 07:14 pm: Edit |
Seeking weapon fighters do not need booster packs with speed 32 drones and plasma. The Tholians fighters are mainly used in web defense. So, no need for them there either. Hydran fighters are manned seeking weapons. They also use more megapacks than anyone else.
The bigger problem is reloading the fighters.
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, July 29, 2026 - 08:35 pm: Edit |
"The bigger problem is reloading the fighters."
Technically, it's reloading the next round of weapons for when the fighters come back in (the Hydrans 'cheated' by building twice what was needed in the first place).
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, July 29, 2026 - 10:59 pm: Edit |
Vandar,
I'm afraid I completely disagree about plasma-armed fighters. At speed 15, they will rarely get close enough for their short-ranged torpedoes to be effective.
| By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, July 29, 2026 - 11:27 pm: Edit |
Alan,
I understand the point you are making about speed 15 plasma-armed fighters, but not all players use the same tactics.
Just want to suggest that perhaps Vandar might be playing a more risky game than you, or I or others might be comfortable with.
If he were (just throwing out possible scenario idea) keeping his fighters aboard the carrier until the force was within 20 tactical hexes, there would be no need to run through a two or three game turn approach battle (depending on the game starting positions).
I personally wouldn’t bring the carrier and escorts into to close combat until I had softened up the opposing force with multiple salvos of drones… even towing fighters to increase the approach speed of advance, but that has risks as well.
I could be way off base, never played Vandor so I have no idea how he plays the game.
Perhaps his experience with speed 15 plasma-armed fighters is different from yours or my experience?
| By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, July 29, 2026 - 11:27 pm: Edit |
Edit
Duplicate
| By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Thursday, July 30, 2026 - 07:01 pm: Edit |
A group of Romulan plasma F fighters. from say a pair of War Hawks. Cloaked by the way. I launch my longer-range Plasma Rs from the eagle class ships. The Feds run them out turn back and want to run in on my now empty tubes. Then think better of it since they do not want to eat 10 plasma FS. Plus, those from the KEs.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 01, 2026 - 04:36 pm: Edit |
Vandar,
I'm a little confused by your example from 7:01 PM on 30 July.
But fighters can't cloak, so presumably you mean the Warhawk carriers are cloaked. But you don't specify whether the fighters are aboard the carriers or whether they have been launched.
Quote:A group of Romulan plasma F fighters. from say a pair of War Hawks. Cloaked by the way.
| By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, August 01, 2026 - 08:31 pm: Edit |
Yes, the Warhawks would be cloaked. The fighters would need to be launched. With the slow launch rate even more so.
If I could have had Mega fighters. Then I would have sabots. My Eagle class ships (KE more than likely SABOT) launch the big R torps; the FED runs away. what range is he now? He heads in fighters are out. He fires at what range to kill the fragile fighters?
He kills them at range. Great he fired and now I gain the time for the Rs to reload. I am firing the Plasm Fs at long range. I do not expect them to hit unless the FED closes. They are only being used to slow down the FEDs charging in giving time to reload.
The Warhawks are cloaked so they may live. The fighters are expendable.
| By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, August 02, 2026 - 12:18 pm: Edit |
Perhaps a late war version of warp packs that take less damage when hit? So a fighter takes damage plus d6-5 damage?
Or a cheaper version of the mega pack which gives 1.5 speed plus 3 damage? Universally available for half the cost of a Megapack?
Both maybe are Available with different YIS?
Either or both would keep fighters relevant...
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, August 02, 2026 - 01:44 pm: Edit |
Quote:Either or both would keep fighters relevant...
| By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, August 02, 2026 - 03:32 pm: Edit |
Vandar? Warhawks, their fighters, AND War Eagles (or King or Queen Eagles).
Respectfully, that's an impressive force (i.e.: high BPV) and, while in reality, Michner didn't pare down his forces at the Marianas Turkey Shoot to have an even BPV battle with the Japanese, in The Game, your Romulan force is going to be countered by an equally powerful force from the opposition (Fed, Gorn, ISC, Tholian, Jindarian, Orion, or Andromedan).
You should expect a little long-range sniping to do a point or two to your fighters, slowly whittling them down, to pressure you to launch your Plasma-F torpedoes sooner than you would like, just like you can expect some minimal phaser sniping against the Eagle, just to keep them honest about paying for their shields to be up (although the Eagles can, in theory, opt to take the damage against their armor and have an extra energy point for utility purposes while under cloak).
You can also expect your opponents to have a small amount of shield reinforcement going to negate "Sandpaper Strikes" from the Phaser-3s on your fighters.
In short, I expect that you'd be facing a powerful force that would overwhelm either aspect of your force (i.e.: would crush the Eagle or would sweep the fighters) and is putting a tight clock on your combined forces.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 08, 2026 - 01:54 pm: Edit |
I meant to comment earlier on Mike Grafton's 12:18 PM post from 2 August. He makes two counterproposals:
"Perhaps a late war version of warp packs that take less damage when hit? So a fighter takes damage plus d6-5 damage?"
"Or a cheaper version of the mega pack which gives 1.5 speed plus 3 damage?"
I like the first idea, though in a modified form. But I don't much care for the second. The "... late war version of warp packs that take less damage when hit" (perhaps call them "stable warp packs") enables fighters to reach speed-30 with - less - vulnerability that fighters with "standard warp packs". As I previously stated, I believe this is essential for fighters in an era that also includes X-ships and PFs. Eventually they become obsolete anyway. But if X-ships had made fighters instantly obsolete, the history shouldn't include as many late-period fighters and carriers as it does. Megafighters, as currently handled by the rules, help explain this more gradual disappearance of fighters. But they are too rare, I believe. The various empires would try to find ways to keep fighters viable and if megapacks are too expensive and WPBs too fragile, they would try to find other alternatives.
The only part of this counterproposal I don't like is the idea that:
"... a fighter takes damage plus d6-5 damage"
If there's one thing SFB doesn't need, it's a big increase in number of dice roles. Just say the stable warp packs cause the fighter to take 50% extra damage rather than the double of a standard WBP. So a non-boosted fighter takes a hit for 5 points. It suffers 5 points of damage. With WPBs active, it would suffer 10 points of damage. With stable warp packs it would suffer 71/2 points, rounded down to 7. No need to add still more dice rolls.
I must say, however, that I don't much care for Mikes second idea of a cheap megapack that boosts speed by 50% rather than doubles it. In a nutshell, I think this improvement isn't enough. Most late-war fighters will now reach speed-22, which is better than speed-15 but still not enough to really be effective in a PF and X-ship era.
Drone using fighters with fast drones might be an exception to the above. But I believe direct-fire fighters or (disagreeing with Vandar) plasma fighters will still be too handicapped.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 08, 2026 - 02:30 pm: Edit |
Quote:As I previously stated, I believe this is essential for fighters in an era that also includes X-ships and PFs. Eventually they become obsolete anyway. But if X-ships had made fighters instantly obsolete, the history shouldn't include as many late-period fighters and carriers as it does. Megafighters, as currently handled by the rules, help explain this more gradual disappearance of fighters. But they are too rare, I believe. The various empires would try to find ways to keep fighters viable and if megapacks are too expensive and WPBs too fragile, they would try to find other alternatives.
| By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, August 08, 2026 - 04:57 pm: Edit |
Reading all this and how to make fighters viable for a little while longer in the late period.
Fighters can have no more than 6-ECCM and 6-ecm (plus naturel sources). Even if they could be lent more. PFs generate as ships do.
Perhaps a refit to increase the amount of EW that can be lent to a fighter? perhaps a pod? Or only lent to a squadron in some way?
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