(J3.117) 96 impulses after becoming active, the electronics burn out and the weasel shuttle ceases to transmit the signal. Any seeking weapons targetted upon the weasel begins tracking the original target again. The shuttle continues to move per (J3.111).


REASON: Against sub-light Romulans ships, especially before the advent of the cloaking device (Y145), opponents can drop a weasel, approach at speed 4 and safely overrun the Romulan ships without fear of their seeking weapons. At extreme tracking ranges (up to 35 hexes), even Plasma-R torpedoes will not always destroy the weasel. If the Romulan opponent leaves even a small ship to guard the weasel, an equal Romulan force has no chance to destroy the weasel at range, leaving the Romulans no choice but to accept the range 0 overrun shot.
Limiting weasels to 96 impulses (the duration of the average drone) doesn't impact weasel's defensive use in any other case (vs drones, vs warp-capable plasma ships) but does keep this tactic from being used as a slam dunk against sub-light ships.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:42 am: Edit

Maybe it should be YJ3.117 !?!

That way the old shuttles can have circuits that burn out but it won't alther the current game in the Middle and GW years.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:05 am: Edit

MJC. This problem exists until Y145 when Romulans get the Cloaking Device. Even then, until the Romulans get Warp power in Y158?, its a significant advantage for those fighting them.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Question: is there a YIS date as such for weasels?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:01 pm: Edit

They are available throughout the entire EY period. I don't know if they will exist in Module Q (sub-light battles).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:15 pm: Edit

The Gorn drops a weasel at range 35 from the Romulan start point. 6 turns later, the Gorn nears the extreme edge of weasel protection (YJ3.0). Meanwhile, the Romulan backs up 6 hexes. End result, Gorns have wasted one shuttle that no longer protects them and have only closed to range 16. I fail to see the dire problems.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:27 pm: Edit

I don't see any need for this change and cannot support it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:38 pm: Edit

I am not convinced of the situation as stated by Andy Palmer.

If the Gorns are attacking a Romulan base, then in order to "execute the overrun" they are going to have to void the weasel. At that point, the Romulan base will paste the Gorn ship at point blank range with its own weapons.

If they are doing this against a Romulan ship, it is the same basic problem. The Gorn has to void the weasel to make his attack.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:11 pm: Edit

All. The Gorn drops the weasel at 25 hexes and is in overrun position after 5-7 turns. The Romulans ship(s) can be at 19 or 31 hexes from the weasel at this point. The Gorn overruns the Masked (or not)Romulan at range 0, doing considerable internals. Assuming the Gorn moves "through" the Rom ship, it will take at least 1 turn+2 impulses for the Romulan torpedoes to get into arc. They key is to time the fire (and void the weasel) the impulse before you move. This prevents the Romulan from being able to launch its torpodoes (due to sequence of play and firing arc) at the Gorn ship.

The only "counters" that the Romulans have are 1. bolt the torps (which vs a brick and 4 ECM is not very successful) and 2. Hope the Gorn hits your NSM (at speed 4, with a brick, again not a great option).

Bases are tougher because of the 360 torpedo arc, but it still gives the Gorn a "free" get-to-point-blank-range approach, effectively starting the fight with a weaker/damaged Romulan base.

This problem is bad enough that my gaming group won't play sub-light Romulans anymore since this situation places them at such a large disadvantage.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:28 pm: Edit

I don't know what speeds Gorns are capable of, but I'd think a Sublight Rom,with no cloaking device, will have extreme issues versus ANY plasma weilding race.

So, I suppose the real question is, would anyone play the Roms in your group if this change WAS put in?

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:32 pm: Edit

As for the base thing, isn't this true no matter what the year? People can elect to approach a base under weasel right now. Of course, they'll get hammered, but they do have the option.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Andy Palmer:

Okay, give specifics. I am still unimpressed. Define the two sides, relative BPVs.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:53 pm: Edit

I'll provide that tonight, when I get home (where books are, etc.).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Andy: There are still some counters. If the Gorn drops WW at speed 0, Rom can back up enough that the scenario would effectively start with the Gorns about 10 hexes from the Rom. The Gorn has traded a shuttle to move slowly through the ranges the Rom was unlikely to launch against a fast Gorn. If the Gorn sends the WW forward slowly, then the Rom would close with a plasma launch on the WW followed by resumption of the battle at the same standard 10-15 range.

Regarding range 0 problem, you still don't follow my doctrine of multiple Rom vessels working together. With 2 Roms in the same hex, 1 moves while the other tacs. A tractor link between the two both moves the tacing Rom and allows for a tractor rotation. Then on the next turn, both Roms tac. Look at all the various possibilities of the Rom options here and see how the tale of the Lizard's tail will end.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:54 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

The Gorn drops the weasel at 25 hexes and is in overrun position after 5-7 turns. The Romulans ship(s) can be at 19 or 31 hexes from the weasel at this point. The Gorn overruns the Masked (or not)Romulan at range 0, doing considerable internals. Assuming the Gorn moves "through" the Rom ship, it will take at least 1 turn+2 impulses for the Romulan torpedoes to get into arc. They key is to time the fire (and void the weasel) the impulse before you move. This prevents the Romulan from being able to launch its torpodoes (due to sequence of play and firing arc) at the Gorn ship.

---

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Sub-light ships don't HET very well.

Shouldn't the relatively low costing Rom sub-light ships be traveling in packs for mutual protection?

And isn't the Gorn firing from under passive fire control? If he over ran your ship to get a good firing solution, his torps are out of arc too, once he has active fire control and can launch them.

And the Rom could weasel too, can't he? I don't remember any rule preventing a sub-light shuttle from acting as a weasel.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Gorn DD vs 2 YSN (68 vs 66 BPV). Roms start in 1111C. Gorn drops a WW on imp 1, range 25, speed 0.

Roms close...
End of T1: Gorn/Rom range=20; Rom/WW range=24
T2: 15 and 23
T3: 10 and 22
T4: 5 and 21
T5: 0 and 20

Roms retreat...
T1: 22 and 25
T2: 19 and 26
T3: 16 and 27
T4: 13 and 28
T5: 10 and 29
T6: 7 and 30
T7: 4 and 31
T8: 1 and 32

Gorn closes to Range 0 and on the impulse before it moves, fires 3 Ph-1 and bolts the torp (10 or 20 damage) if under Veil; 19 or 29 otherwise. I'll hit the snipe that can get in arc the soonest. I'll get at least one turn+2 impulses, regardless. Ideally perform the overrun on impulse 8, attacking on 15 (allows for a speed up to 14 on imp 18)

Gorn plot: 2.5 HC, 4 MV, 1 TORP, 4 shield reinforcement, 6 ECM (18 point front shield vs bolts and lasers).

RWW. Versus your tactic, I'll happily stay at range 15 sniping away with ph-1s. Veiled ships can't tractor and I can outrun your G-torps. There are far too many options for the opponent when the Roms choose not to cloak/veil/mask, especially in small engagements.

There are other examples. In squadron engagements, you can leave a small ship back to protect the weasel against plasma, thereby launching it closer and moving your ships through the Rom formation until you get the shot of your choosing. Time is on the Gorns' side here. The lasers are not enough of a deterrent, especially with 12 ECM (WW+allocated).

Some of the EY cases are even worse because the Masking Device grants no range modifier (though riskier due to the R25 limit - still works in squadron engagements).

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Daniel. Gorns bolt.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 09:49 pm: Edit

If you're Sniping at range 15, isn't the shuttle you left back there useless?

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Andy: Several quick points.

1) You are using a slightly imbalanced situation. The Snipe has a poor firepower to BPV relationship and if Snipes are the major unit, their manueverability advantages don't get much play.

2) Somehow, knocking down a shield and armor and forcing the Rom to spend 2 points on reinforcement (if the bolt hits) is not significant internals.

Note my tactic proposal was in regards to accentuating manuevers in regards to the situation of a Gorn at point blank range. Obviously, if you stay at range, the tactics designed for range 0 are not the tactics the Roms should follow.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:09 am: Edit

RWW. I was trying to find a small balanced BPV to easily illustrate the problem. The Gorn can actually do this strike, and, with a well timed speed change, avoid any launched plasma. It can then pick up its shuttle and do it again.

My point regarding your maneuvers is that the Gorn has the initiative. He can switch back and forth as he desires. Additionally, if you use your tactic, your Veil is not on, therefore you take crippling internals (on a snipe) if the bolt hits.

If desired, I can come up with a larger scenario. It is even worse when considering Orion pirates and what they can do using this tactic (R0 photons, etc.).

Tim. Yep, until you go back to pick it up and rearm it again.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:36 am: Edit

RE: Gorn vs. Rom WE. What would happen if the Rom just fires anyway when the Gorn reaches R1. The Plas. R moves towards the WW sure, but if the Gorn fires it will void the WW and the Plasma R will HET and kick the Gorn in the ass. Right?? I mean the Gorn has to be going four or less so the max speed change would be to fourteen. Not quite fast enough to avoid the speed 32 R torp that has only traveled less than ten hexs so it has a pretty good KICK left. Right??

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:52 am: Edit

If the WE fires a R torp before the Gorn does anything, he'll just fly right by the Romulan. After the R gets 10-15 hexes away, turn back in fire/launch and run away. If you can make the R move 13 out & 13 back, that puts the damage down into the "10" point bracket.

Of course it may be a Pseudo, but that's why we play the game, right...

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 02:32 am: Edit

Andy: Try the same tactic against 2 YHK (76 BPV) and you will notice substantially different results. You may want to improve the Gorn DD to a DD+ to keep BPV equivalent. Having half the firepower for 87% of the BPV is not ideal when faced with an opponent unlikely to be concerned by the Rom attempting EM.

Yes, any player of sublight Roms needs to master a Passive-Agressive approach, ceding control of the battle but pummeling the opponent once the opportunity arises. My purposed tactic is a counter to your Gorn vessel reaching range 0 which gives me a good chance inflicting damage by getting at least 1 Snipe to launch plasma at close range against a slow moving Gorn.

Tony: The Gorn need not fly by. Moving at speed 4, the Gorn has plenty of time to watch the plasma lose strength before committing to firing on a choosen Romulan.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 02:34 am: Edit

Don't pseudo's lose strength as would the real torp? I thought the only way to tell a Pseudo from a live plasma was to see it hit something.