If the Rom tried to preempt the overrun with launching plasma first, the Gorn would still fire. If the launched plasma is fake, the Gorn is in the same situation as the Gorn would have been if the Rom had not launched plasma and the same tactics would apply. If the launched torp was real, by the time the torp gets back it will be weak enough not to be significant. (This is all based on the proposed tactic where the Gorn closes hiding under a WW until firing at range 0.)

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 06:21 am: Edit

What are the BPVs of the Gorn EY ships?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 07:00 am: Edit

RWW. Even with Hawks, at best you're going to get to launch plasmas at me. If I stay at speed 4, I just weasel again...if timed well, you'll even take the collateral damage. (speed plot depends on ships faced and their facing). Even the Gorn DD has 4 weasels; the larger ships have more.

This tactic results in 2+ opportunities for the Gorns to overrun at range 0 with little-to-no risk before they are out of shuttles. Only then does it become a passive/aggressive maneuver/bluff battle. With 2+ Gorn ships, they can get that range 0 shot and effectively take out one Romulan ship and safely get away, albeit at the cost of 1+ additional weasels. There isn't really anything the Roms can do about that.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 07:59 am: Edit

I have no idea what these Rom ships look like, but I'd presume a ship with no engines and no cloak will pack a supremely mean punch. So the Gorn's plan is to approach said ship and fire everything at range 0, which is somehow outside the Roms firing arc.

So, if I assumed a tourney TFH had no warp engines, and was approached by a Tourney Gorn ship, this would be the situation....correct?

So why on earth is the Rom not absorbing this pathetic shot the Gorn does, tractor the Gorn ship, and delivering twice as much damage back?

Again, I don't like the Rom chances, but I don't like them for the fact the Rom's cant freakin move, which has nothing to do with the weasel thing. Seems like a total waste of time to me, keep approaching range 15 and launching envelopers.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 08:43 am: Edit

Enveloppers don't exist in the EY period.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 08:54 am: Edit

No envelopers until far in the future. Sublight Roms can't tractor enemy units. Sublight Romulan tactics are built around numbers. Sure, any ship can easily stay out of the FA of one Romulan but if you have at least two facing in different directions, life becomes much harder.

Andy: If you stay at speed 4, you will take 2 turns of close range laser fire. (Hot pursuit with sublight Roms is an odd concept.) If you took your previous plan of accelerating, you would have to ED which both leaves you vulnerable to more laser fire and Romulan shuttles boarding. Plus a slow retreat for the Gorn leaves more time for the other Romulan to bring weapons in arc.

Expected result, if the Rom does not launch all plasma on the same impulse (its range 0 or 1 and the Gorn moving slowly is unlikely to bring new shield to bear without HET), would be for the Gorn DD to have knocked down a Rom shield. The Romulan would have knocked down 1 (possibly 2) Gorn shields between lasers and collateral damage plus destroyed 1 (possibly 2) shuttles plus might have been able to get some internals against Gorn shields of tissue. Second battle pass doesn't look that promising for the Gorn. The overrun under WW looks on the whole to be a loser for the Gorn against an equivalent BPV Rom force that does not purchase excessive low damage units like Snipes.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 08:56 am: Edit

So has anyone prepared these ships for SFBOL? It sounds like we have a challenge here :-)

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 09:24 am: Edit

RWW. Are you playing with EW? Lasers stink with a -2 shift.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 09:38 am: Edit

Can other ships tractor, and just not Roms?

This is getting more humorous the more I hear this. The Roms can't tractor, can't move, have no cloak. And we are supposed to come up with a way they will defeat a Gorn?

Sounds like the Gorn is giving them the only chance they'll ever get at beating them. Gorn approaches to range 0, and the imp before he moves out, both ships alpha each other. Of course, to make this par for the course, the Roms likely have less firepower than the Gorn as well, chuckle.

By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 11:48 am: Edit

Tim,

The gorns dont have phasers, they have 'warp attuned lasers' means they have to get real close to use the guns. Some ships also dont have plasma they have some kind of missile (dont have rulebook handy)

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Tim: Other ships can tractor though the tractor ranges are reduced in EY. The Rom does have good firepower; each YHK has twice the plasma of the Gorn DD (and the Roms get two YHKs because they cost so little); the lasers are poor but the combined 8 lasers would do the same damage as the 3 phasers on the DD if the fight occurs at range 0 or 1. Think "Fox and Geese" instead of boxing.

Andy: Yes, I play with EW. EW tends to play to the Roms advantage since the revised Roms actually have surplus power especially when holding torps. A -2 shift is not that bad with range 0 shots and if the Gorn moves at speed 4, the Rom has 8 impulses to fire giving plenty of opportunity to wait for WW effects to dissipate.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Andy Palmer:

Snipe #1 in hex 1111, Facing B. Snipe #2 in hex 1311 Facing F.
If you overrun Snipe #1, Snipe #2 will unveil and launch its plasma-G which will catch you with a warhead strength of at least 15 if not the full 20. If you overrun Snipe #2, Snipe #1 will unveil and launch its plasma-G.

Optional:

Both Snipes in 1111, Snipe #1 with facing B, Snipe #2 with facing F. If you overrun, the hex by which you leave will establish which Snipe will Sublight TAC while unveiling and launch its plasma-G, see above for strength of warhead on impact.

In both cases, while moving into position one or both NSMs might be deployed, making the overrun a crapshoot in any case.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:13 pm: Edit

RWW. How will they get range 0 shots when the Gorn moves out of the hex the impulse AFTER he fires (and he is free to NOT fire and let you waste your firepower vs 12 ECM - secret and simultaneous works in the Gorns's favor)? At Range 1, shooting lasers at a 2 shift does not lead to productive results.

Tim. Sub-Light Roms have early cloaks, and lots of plasma (think Balance of Terror episode of TOS). They don't really have power for EW or Tractor games though (exception being the WB with 6 batts).

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Remeber that the maximum EW of the Gorn is 10 points. This doesn't help getting the shift below -2, but does make -2 feasible for the Roms.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Ah yes, the second weasle. How limited of me not to have thought of that.

Lowers head in shame.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Not convinced. Fagedaboudit.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 01:12 pm: Edit

SPP. Example 1. Overrun #2, exit to D. Weasel again so torp explodes in hex of #2. Go and recover first ww and do it again. Rinse, repeat. Same principle for the 2nd example..you shoot at the one who can get you in arc, and weasel their launch.

And yes, this is worse in squadron actions (3 Gorns vs 5-6 Roms) since the Gorns can destroy a Rom ship before the Roms can even get a decent shot off (and with 4-6 shuttles each, the Gorns can do this a lot).

On top of it all, this change doesn't impact ANY situation except when fighting sublight ships.

With this rule in place, the Gorns have to use maneuver and timing to get their shots, which, while not resulting in interesting or short games, does explain why the Romulans even remained a threat.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Andrew:

You did not have a second weasel. Refer to your plot.

If you want to change, fine. But bear in mind that you lost the first round because your plot did not anticipate the need for the second weasel.

SCENARIO #1:

You overrun Snipe #2 and exit in direction D.

Snipe #2 Tacs to facing E, launches plasma. You respond with second weasel, still moving speed 4.

Snipe #1 Tacs to facing C, launches plasma after explosion period of second weasel. You take 20 points of damage on an aft unreinforced shield. I win.

SCENARIO #2:

You overrun and exit in direction D.

Snipe #1 Tacs to Facing C, Snipe #2 Tacs to Facing E. Damaged one launches its plasma. You launch second weasel. Undamaged one launches its plasma. You take 20 points on an unreinforced rear shield. I win.

Bear in mind: Exit to D, 50% chance you triggered an NSM off one of your three front shields. If this happened, I think I won. If it did not trigger, then there is a chance that you are in a position where a subsquent move will trigger the mine. This is up to and including the possibility that you moved in such a way that there will be three chances of that die roll short of an Emergency Deceleration. All depends on your decision to move through or adjacent to any hex I passed through while you were approaching.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 06:18 pm: Edit

I'm curious how this Gorn vessel takes a shot while under WW restrictions? A ship under WW cannot fire AT ALL. It will take 4 impulses to be able to fire once it voids the WW.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 06:48 pm: Edit

SPP. Scenario 1.
I move into same hex on impulse 8. I fire on i.15, move on i.16. Snipes drop Veil, bring up FC. FC up on i.20. launch plasma, launch ww. i.21 plasma impacts for 5 collateral. explosion period through movement of 25. i.24 I slip E, out of arc of the torp of Snipe #1. Imp 25 increase speed to 14.

Plot: HC 1.5 (no FC); TORP 1; MV 7; WW 1; TRAC 5; SHIELD #4 3 (this assumes you are veiled).

I start the next turn 6 hexes from SN#1, which can TAC on i.2 and launch. I start at speed 14. My plot is HC 2.5; TORP 0; MV 5.5 (14 till 12; then 9) ; PHAS 2; SHIELD #4 9. I degrade the plasma with 2 ph-1 (min. 4 off warhead; max 2 shield damage).

So, I just sacrificed one weasel and 7-8 points of shield boxes for an opportunity to do 19 damage to a snipe.

I take a few turns to rearm, repair my shield, get my shuttle back and do this twice more. By then, one Snipe will be done for and my 4th shuttle will be usuable against the other snipe (no need to do an immediate weasel since I'll be behind him).

Yes, NSMs are an option, but we don't play with hidden mines, so I'll know where they are.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Not convinced. Fagedaboudit.

By Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Kevin: you can fire weapons under Passive FC (voiding weasel) at the penalty of doubled range (at range 0, no penalty).

By Jeff Williams (Jeff) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 11:42 pm: Edit

What Orbis said. Sneaky tourney tactic.

By Kevin M. McCollum (Sfbl5r) on Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 10:57 am: Edit

Piotr, (J3.132) The ship must deactivate its active fire control system (D6.6). The ship may not fire weapons, EVEN WITH PASSIVE FIRE CONTROL (D19.21).....

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 11:58 am: Edit

Kevin McCollum:

I fear you misunderstand the rule. What the rule says is that if the ship fires any weapons under passive fire control it voids the weasel. See (J3.40).

It is a perfectly legal and valid tactic to launch a weasel, and then fire your weapons while under the weasel's protection (voiding it). There are several cases where it comes up. Andrew Palmer is basing this situation on one of them.

As to Andrew:

Well, one thing, you are figuring your damage from the overrun wrong. The Snipe's have "Veiling Devices" (your scenario set up) which under (YG13.30) and (YG13.34) means that even at range zero your three phaser-1s are firing at five hexes range. At that range their MAXIMUM damage output is 15 points. Add 10 points from the bolted plasma-G torpedo, and that is a maximum of 25 points. That is your MAXIMUM. Your minimum is of course a mere six points of damage (straight sixes on the phaser-1s and the plasma bolt). Average phaser damage would be a mere 11 points added to the ten points from the bolt, and two points of battery reinforcement prevents you from even penetrating the shield.

So, effectively, your entire first battle pass nets you one down shield on average (which I will need to cover, granted), and possibly two of your weasel's destroyed (dependent on whether or not your charged two and had to use them based on whether or not the second plasma gets in arc.

And do you want to play games? I will play games. Since you only wish to use rules that favor your plan, I will lay a mine openly. If you run through my hex, there will be a two-thirds chance that you will trigger the mine, which will explode off my #4 shield (okay, now I have two weak shields), but it will also by itself eliminate one of your weasels. (Obviously this one was a mere T-bomb purchased with my Commander's Options and rolled out the hatch). Ah, but then it MIGHT be the NSM. Yea, you take 35 points on your "brick" which will net about 16 internals after your one point of battery. It will also pretty much wreck one of my Snipes, but 16 internals is about enough to have a good chance of peeling your plasma and at least two phasers, or all three phasers and not the plasma, from your ship.