People talk about this thing like it's a real product. I've never said so, but let's see if you can show me 47 ships (from the Y2-Y3 list) that should go into it.

Go on, show me. Give me a list. As many as you can. I saw at least 3 in the y2 argument.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:49 am: Edit

Well, the three listed in Y2 are:
- C4B
- Cygnan YCA
- Cygnan YDD

Two more I remember are:
- D6C
- D6N

There were a couple more D6 variants that I can't remember, and can't look up until Saturday (when I get home).

The Feds get at least a CL-C (command variant of the CL).

In addition, there are C4B equivalents for the other races, specifically the Feds, Kzinti, Lyrans, and Hydrans. So, that's four more.

It would be really, really cool to have a K6R (Kestral version of the C6) for the Romulans.

Then you also have a whole raft of possibilities with upgraded Y-ships. Put some rules around what can be done to Y-ships to upgrade them the MY tech. Cover the whole 'Republic' issue with the parameters of the Fed YCA -> CA conversion. Give parameters to anyone else that tries.

Finally, go look at the other races. I am sure there are some candidates for similar type stuff. Is there a Kzinti CL-C? How about the Hydrans? Is the something missed?

So, so far I have named twelve ships specifically. I'll have to go back and see what the others are. The Captain's Log with the D6C had at least two more ships, but I can't remember them, so I don't count them.

But, considering that we have gone from 50 to *way* over 120 possible ships for Y2 and from not having anything to having two modules worth for X1R, I have no doubt that given a couple of weeks we can come up with a list of 47 ships for a Middle Years module.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:09 am: Edit

A Klingon drone ship...

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:39 am: Edit

Middle Year WYN also ..... they have from what I can see maybe 3 ships till the GW or so (IIRC) ... I am assuming lyran and zin middle year ship defections; maybe some Y conversion ships also that flee to the cluster (native Y) and get coverted by the WYN (strapped for ships) to middle year tech.

Also how about WYN carnivor ships ... assuming some of them defected also (or not). Maybe the remnants who weren't destroyed fled there also. Sure maybe the native Zin / Lyrans of WYN killed the crews but they would have the ships and convert them.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 11:00 am: Edit

I love a challenge. I combed the BBS, the MSC, the CLs, etc in a quick effort this morning to put this together. The ships in the list below range from SSDs we've seen in CL to proposals board pipe dreams.

Race	Ship	Year	Description
Fed	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B
Fed	LSC	130	OCL Scout CL 32
Fed	OLC	-	(Old) Light Command Cruiser - Mike West
Fed	LCC	-	Upgraded YCC from Y2 (The National Guard ships from R8 cover a lot of Middle Years ground - upgrading Y-ship to "standard tech". There are a number of ships I'm putting in here to round out that list. Essentially an effort by the various races to upgrade Y-era ships while new warships built from the ground up come online.)
Fed	LTUG	-	Upgrade of YTUG to "L" standards. Feds do not introduce the standard tech tug until Y135.
Fed	DDM	-	Early two photon version of the DD
Klingon	C4B	122	Upgraded YDN CL20. On the current Y2 List
Klingon	D7Z	141	CL13 - first use of Ph-1s by the Klingons according to the ship description in the log
Klingon	D6C	126	CL20
Klingon	D6N	136	CL20
Klingon	DT6	-	Proposals Board - Jeremy Gray - (I consider this one very thin but its out there so I included it)
Klingon	LD4D	-	Proposals Board - Michael C. Grafton
Romulan	KB+	-	King Bird upgrade (assumes ship is published in Y2)
Romulan	K6R	-	Conjectural Early DN based on C6
Romulan	K4B	-	Conjectural YDN Upgrade based on C4B
Kzinti	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B
Kzinti	CLC	127	Light Command Cruiser CL20
Kzinti	CLD	140	Light Drone Cruiser CL20
Kzinti	CLM	152	Light Minesweeper Cruiser CL20
Kzinti	CLS	-	Light Cruiser Scout
Kzinti	LCL	-	Upgraded YCL from Y2
Kzinti	AC	-	Armored Cruiser (an old proposal - essentially a Kzinit WCA improved (on the current Y3 list) brought up to standard tech.
Gorn	YDN+	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B
Tholian	LWT	-	An early web tender using a Y-era freighter
Orion	LCA	-	Upgraded YCA from Y2
Orion	FLG	-	CL30
Hydran	PGS	-	Pegasus Scout CL22
Hydran	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B
Hydran	LCC	-	Upgraded YCC from Y2. Possible the Hydrans upgraded a number of Y era ships between Y120 and Y140. They don't get around to "modern" designs at all until Y135.
Hydran	LDD	-	Upgraded YDD from Y2
Hydran	LTUG	-	Upgraded YTUG from Y2
Lyran	YDNH	-	Assumed YDN upgrade similar to C4B - on the current Y2 list.
Lyran	LCL	-	Upgraded YCL from Y2
Lyran	LDD	-	Upgraded YDD from Y2
Lyran	CLS	-	Light Scout Cruiser (last hoorah in the Four Powers war)
Lyran	CLG	-	Commando Ship similar to Kzinti CLG
WYN	LDD?	-	Pick a ship and throw the WYN a bone.
WYN	LDD?	-	Pick a ship and throw the WYN a bone.
ISC	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B - YDN base hull on current Y3 list
ISC	LCC	-	Upgrade base hull on current Y3 list
ISC	LCL	-	Upgrade base hull on current Y2 list
ISC	LDD	-	Upgrade base hull on current Y2 list
ISC	CAI	-	Interim Design for the middle years. With the publication of Y2 the ISC will have a round of designs appearing in the Y-era with nothing to replace them until Y160 (based on the MSC). Exception is the "L" upgrades. Presumably these ships would be roughly on par with other ships of the period (in terms of power weapons etc) rather than the strong Y160+ designs we know and love.
ISC	CLI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	DDI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	FFI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	TUGI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	SRI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	POLI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.

I must emphasize, this is a first swag, done quickly and potentially including errors. I took some quick notes before I left for work today, and do not have an MSC in front of me, which might provide even more insight on the realm of the possible. Just something for us to start with.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 11:50 am: Edit

Selected posts from an older Middle Years thread:

(I think the real eye opening thing is the pace at which some ships appear and others do not. Example the Lyrans get modern real fast, the Hydrans wait until Y135, others phase in over time, with varying priorities. The result, different races have different "shortfalls" in the first half of the "middle years" period.)
________________________________________

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 06:01 pm: Edit

The Middle Years are basically the period from about Y120 to Y157. It starts when the speed 31 ships start to appear through the beginning of the four powers war. Basically this is the time period where SFB started; no refits, no fighters, and no war crusiers.

The purpose of this topic is basically to provide discussions of what happens between the Early Years (Y1/Y2) and the explosion of ships and technology during the Four Powers and General Wars. Many of the ships of this period are already in the game, but many classes of ships came a went before and have yet to presented. Also some ships of the early years were upgraded and remained in service until a "modern" class replaced it. Some of these ships appeared in Captain's Log 20. Here's a opportunity to figure out what additional ships are needed to make the timeline work.
________________________________________

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Let's start with listing what Middle Year ships are already in the game, starting with the ships of the Y120 decade.

Y120
Base Stations and Civilian Base Stations
Federation CL
Klingon E3
Gorn DD
Lyran CC CA CL DD SC FF
Y121
Klingon E4
Gorn CA CL
Y122
Klingon D6
Kzinti CL FF
Y124
Klingon D6J TGB P-C1 P-P2 P-T3
Y125
Federation CMC CLS
Klingon D6E D6G
Kzinti CS
Gorn COM SC
Tholian SC
Lyran POL TGP TGC SR Pal-C Pal-TT
Y127
Federation FF POL
Klingon G2
Kzinti SF
Gorn FF
Orion CR
Y129
Orion LR SLV VIK BS
________________________________________

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 06:35 pm: Edit

The Y130 decade

Y130
Battle Stations
Federation CA DD SC
Klingon G2C G4
Kzinti POL TGT P-C1 P-SD4 P-T5
Y132
Orion CA
Y133
Kzinti CD
Y134
Federation FLG
Kzinti DF
Hydran LC RN LN HN SC
Y135
Federation TUG P-C
Klingon D7 D6D F5 E4J
Kzinti P-B3
Y136
Klingon F5J
Lyran FLG
WYN ZFF KG2
Y137
Federation P-SL
Klingon D7E D7N F5D
Y138
Klingon F5M
Kzinti CA
Gorn FLG
Y139
Kzinti FLG
WYN LDD
________________________________________

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 06:42 pm: Edit

The Y140 decade

Y140
Starbases
Federation GSC CLH FFT FFP
Klingon E4I
Gorn CC
Hydran TUG P-C P-FC P-TT P-CE P-SD
WYN AxC
Y141
Klingon TGA
Y142
Klingon G2C
Hydran GEN
ISC FLG
Y143
Federation CC
Klingon D7C F5C
Y145
Federation P-BP
Klingon P-B4
Hydran SR SAR
Y147
Kzinti CC
Tholian C
Y148
Federation DN
________________________________________

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 06:46 pm: Edit

The Y150 decade (thru Y157)

Y150
Klingon C6 F5I P-D8
Kzinti DNE
Gorn SR
Tholian CPC
Orion SAL LRS
Hydran TEM INS
Lyrab DNE
Y151
LDR PSC
Y154
WYN KE4
Y155
Klingon F5G
________________________________________

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 06:52 pm: Edit


During the middle years the Romulans still don't have warp engines, so they get no new ships. The Tholians only get a few new ships as most of the technology in the early years. The Andromedons, ISC, and Seltorians don't appear until after MY. The LDR are using standard Lyran ship during MY. The Jindarians have all of their basic ships long before this period.
__________________________________

Link to the rest of the thread ... Which eventually got hijacked by an off topic ED discussion. Still some good thoughts in there though, despite its dated nature (several ships, including the national guard ships, have since been published, covering some of the ground discussed there).

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 04:09 pm: Edit

One obvious question is whether we can retcon the YIS of some ships, most notably the Lyrans.

Some ships stand out as being a bit ahead of their time. For example, the Gorn CL has 24 warp on a 2/3 move cost and so looks like a CW from 50 years later. I can easily believe that there was an earlier CL with 20 warp and [some] P2s. It's possible that this was produced alongside the "modern" CL which was then considered a CLC.

This sort of thing can be extended quite a bit, inasmuch as ships could have been introduced with P2s rather than P1s and been refitted (or produced as early Leader versions) with P1s. Likewise shorter-range disruptors and any other downgrades we can dream up.

There are also some ships in the R12 thread that fit into the MY, such as the Hydran Amazon & Hoplite CLs.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 04:19 pm: Edit

I second the 20-Warp Gorn CLE.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 04:21 pm: Edit

I strongly resist the retconning of existing, established ships.

One of the NICE things about the middle years is the oddballs and true flavor of the ships of the period. I am all for adding more ships; but don't want to see the Middle Years "General War-ized".

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 04:31 pm: Edit

I think we know understand where Tos's "CLE" request elsewhere comes from. E for early, not escort. We'll need a new notation somewhere here. I hesitate to suggest CL-, with the - indicating a defit*.

*Yes, it's a word. It is now, anyway.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 04:43 pm: Edit

I do sympathise with Dale about keeping the oddballs. Hence my attempt to justify the existence of both the currently-listed ships and the more mediocre ones that would have preceded/accompanied them.

Look at the Lyrans, for example. Going straight from an 87 BPV YCA to a 133 BPV CA is a leap bigger than BCH to CX, so you'd certainly expect to see something in between. Likewise, the Gorn YCL-CL jumps from 60 to 92 BPV, better than a 50% increase.

The MY doesn't need to be General War-ized because there's no arms race and the various empires don't need to be kept in synchrony. But each individual one should have a coherent and fairly smooth tech slope.

Where the MY module could excel is in the weird concepts that didn't pan out or were made obsolete by later technology, and thus weren't extended to later years. Needs some thought.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 05:01 pm: Edit

I am just saying - I don't mind new ships being added.

But don't muck with the YIS or availability of established, basic ships that are (in many cases) old favorites.

Trying to ram two-photon Fed DD's or gimped Gorn CL's down my throat in the name of "balance" is the surest way to ensure I will not buy this module or use it in my games.

As a campaign player and GM, this kind of thing concerns me greatly. I'd rather see no M.Y. module at all, than one that mucks with the ships we already know and love.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Oh yeah! Good point!

I forgot to list the two-photon DD to the list of ships for the module. And the inevitable 20-box warp power version of the Gorn CL, too.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 06:00 pm: Edit

just say "Early CL" instead of trying things like ECL, CLE, CL-, CLY, or whatever. That way, there is no way for anyone to mis-understand.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:07 pm: Edit

It may be worthwhile publishing versions of Klingo-Kzinti ships with E-racks replacing the ADD-Racks.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Mostly obvious variants, but there are quite a few campaign useful ships that can be published for the Middle Years:

Fed: DD Commando, DD Transport, DD Minesweeper, FEMA destroyer, GDN (national guard DN)
Klg: D6C, D6N, E4 minesweeper, C4B
Rom: Battle Hawk-Scout, Battle Hawk-Leader, Klingon G2 (conjectural)
Kzi: DD-Scout, DD-Commando, DD-Minesweeper, DD-Drone, CL-Minesweeper, CLD, CLC, CL-Scout, GDN
Gorn: CL-minesweeper, GDN
Hydran: PGG, PGF, PGC, PGR (Any Pegasus variants not yet published), GDN
Lyran: CL minesweeper, CL commando, CL Scout, FF scout, FF commando, FF minesweeper, GDN
WYN: Klingon F5 (conjectural), Kzinti DD (conjectural)
ISC: FF-Scout, FF-commando, FF-Minesweeper, FF-Transport, GDN

By John Erwin Hacker (Godzillaking) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Ummmmmm everyone............

Isn't there enough items that ADB is working on right now to add another one to that ALREADY LARGE LIST ?

To add another one to the above would only cause delays in other products that have FAR MORE IMPORTANCE than this one.

The middle years ? Come on everyone, this would be such a short period of time in the overall aspect of the game that it would be POINTLESS to put out a product on it. The timeline and DATE IN SERVICE for all the starships in this game have already been "officially stated" and there is no more room for anymore. How many starship types are there in this "ALREADY CROWDED GAME" ? 2000 maybe ? I think this topic is rather pointless but like SVC stated on another topic "if you want to amuse yourselves on something that won't ever change go ahead" or something along those lines.

"THE GODZILLAKING"

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Actually, the "Middle Years" are from Y120 to ~Y155. Thirty-five years is longer than the 4PW and GW periods combined. (ca. Y155-Y180)

And I'm sure there will be room for more ship types in the game as long as R-modules sell. (Not that I don't ever feel the same way... though the GW is far more overcrowded to my eyes than the MY period this is looking at.)

I have to say Jeremy's list is longer than I would have expected.

Personally, I don't know that a specifically MY module is needed, but I think it could be a good "theme" for an R-module (e.g., "R14: The Middle Years"). Most of these ships should be operating under the normal rules, with an occasional "This ship cannot overload heavy weapons" note.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:23 pm: Edit

John,

Who said this module is being promised to anyone at any time?

In case you missed it, SVC created the thread and asked a question. I fail to see how we are bringing on the destruction of SFB by answering a question the actual designer of the game asked.

If you don't like the thread, don't read it. I fail to see how discussing a hypothetical module is going to hurt anything else in SFB.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:30 pm: Edit

There's no harm in discussing the MY concept. That is my favorite era of the SFU. I don't know if the 4 Powers War or the General War were envisioned back around 1979 or 1980, but I do know that the ships that came with the early versions of SFB were late middle year ships akin to what we saw in episodes of TOS.

I always read this thread with great interest.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:37 pm: Edit

I would love to see a MY module. I really would. I am just afraid of having some of my favorite ships "retconned" or "nerfed". But I don't want my resistance to THAT concept come across as resistance of the entire project. That's not the case.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:44 pm: Edit

I certainly think (or perhaps feel that it is certainly the case) that some ships with DATES in the Y120s are presented as the designs for Y145 and up. I think that, in a few cases, we do need to go look at things. I know how those dates were created (I created them) and it was mostly a matter of "we have to have a CL to cover that decade but don't really want to print another SSD or have another set of shaded boxes, so just fudge it and move on" and I think in some cases it's time that the fudge was replaced by something more .... concrete.

John: Don't panic. The point of this topic is to find out if there really is a module to be done. If so, we'll do it (sometime, someday, not this year, probably not next year). The point, however, is that three or four ships in the y2 list would logically move to this module if there is to be a YM module and I have to know the answer in the next two weeks.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 11:21 pm: Edit

I for one would like to see the Year In Services revisited. I would like to see more of a spread for ships to go from EY -> MY -> GW.

For campaigns I like the idea of having to choose to either keep producing what I am currently or change the shipyards to produce a different type of ship.

The campaign I play has re-tooling costs for adding classes to a shipyards capability.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 01:22 am: Edit

I think there's a lot of people out there who like to play a more exploration based campaign (it's the intention of one of the guys I've recently been playing with) and so play in say Y125-Y165. And that basically means you've only got about 20% of the SSDs that are availible to players involved in the GW. I therefore think a middle years module would be cool.

I don't think any YISs or refits should change but having a few conjectual; this is what a middle years DN and this is what a middle years BCH and this is what a middle years CW and this is what a middle years DW: would have looked like if the General war had kicked off 30 years earlier, would be cool. And having a few real "this is what they used as their command ship before the CC was invented" would be very cool.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 07:05 am: Edit

••••. Jeremy beat me to it.

*troutsmacks Jeremy for mentioning the DDM*

One theme for the MY module, if done, could be the Second Fed-Kzinti War, Y136-142.

This war lasted for some time, and would have involved NUMEROUS Fed designs, such as the DD, CL, CA, and Refitted YDN's (LDN?). You can almost guarentee that many Fed NG ships (GCA's/GDD's/GFF's, as well as 'training squadron' Andorians/Rigellians/etc) fought in it as well.

If changing some YIS dates isn't Bad Addenda, the Fed CC YIS might be shifted to Y136 instead of Y143. Then again, maybe the Feds didn't see a need for the CC until after the war was fought.

The Second Fed-Kzinti War is also the war where the Cygnans built their 'obsolete' defense fleet using Y-technology (Cygnan YCA/YDD).

Proposed for this module:

Fed (Modern) Light Cruiser
Fed Heavy Frigate.

See FEDERATION SHIP PROPOSALS.