Ahh, the ancient tactic of head to head engagement comes up! Let them run full boar at you. If they get past, tractor!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 02:30 am: Edit

Tractoring a large freighter with skids is unadvisable because 3Ph-2s hurt at R1. Tractoring further can be a bad idea too because of BTTYs.
Not tractoring renders the engagement to be head-to-head just once if the vessel is really pouring on the speed.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 09:17 am: Edit

Added an Edit to the reply to Mike West about the MR.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 09:45 am: Edit

SPP,

Thanks for the reply. I figured it was about the nimble status, but you explained why.

Thank you.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 11:23 am: Edit

Steve Cain:

Starfleets tend to be a lot more "active" in pursuing you if you demonstrate an excessive bloodlust.

I, as a pirate, will do the amount of killing that I believe is necessary, and no more. Merchant ships might be crewed by "families", and the very last thing I want is the data records of my ship on a Freighter's Log Buoy that also contains the note that there were (as an example) two newborn babes aboard.

Or a picture of that cute Andorian moppet who was only five years old when I wiped out the crew.

I do not need that kind of notoriety.

I much prefer to send the message with living crewmen, preferably with any children uninjured (or at least well treated by my Medical Officer, together with any other wounded).

Now, as I have noted, I might have to put up with the news media blasting me for "executing the child's father (or mother if the captain was a woman)" for the reasons I have stated before. (But I have enough couth not to kill a child's parent before their eyes, or even to kill a Spouse in front of his/her significant other). I am not needlessly cruel. Although this is more a matter of "policy" than "personality", if you understand my meaning.

I do not need to try to get the Starfleet to take a special interest in me and my ship, thank you very much. But I WILL do what I believe to be necessary within my overall policy. And if that means that I wind up sending a few Ship Captains and/or Communications Techs for long walks through short airlocks, sobeit. (Note, while I use the term "Long walk through a short airlock", I would not ever actually space someone alive. Bad enough that I may believe I have to kill the person to make the point, I do not need to make the act even more gruesome. This again is "policy" as I have no desire to attract Starfleet's attention through gratuitous violence.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 09:18 pm: Edit

SPP:

TOS tapes seem to indicate (IIRC) that the only death penalty still on the books is travel to the Talos system...

The point, is, that the penalty for piracy, murder, and other assorted hijinks (as opposed to hijacks) would involve re-education or (possibly) incarceration if you would prove to be resistant to such remedial efforts.

By that standard, the "worst" you could logically expect is to be killed by an overzelous Star Fleet officer or Police officer.

Why stop the "long walks through short air locks" if the penalty is the same for all the various crimes?

By Tim Longacre (Timl) on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 09:38 pm: Edit

IMO, That would most likely only apply within the Federation (and perhaps the Gorn Confederation if they feel like being nice). Even then, the more heinous the crime you commit, the more likely the federation officials are to either give you a taste of slave labor for life, or deport you to any stellar power that may have charges against you (where your death may be a real option).
OTOH, I would guess that, under the original forces deployed, the LR is operating in Klingon territory (given the presence of Z-1s). For this particular scenario then, how you conduct yourself as a pirate is going to be irrelevant if/when they do catch you...
Now you also might consider that if the Klingons treat their civilian population the same as their subject races (not necessarily a fair assumption, though), you might think you would be doing the crew a favor by taking them prisoner.

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 11:43 pm: Edit

SPP,
I agree the more blood, the worse the situation becomes for the pirate. Starfleets and cartels will not like the attention. I think someone already made that point though.
Anyway, that may have been 'The Dread Pirate Cain' hacking my account when that one messager post went up.
I always want the clean easy job.
Jeff,
Death sentence on ONLY one system? Ever visit the Klingon empire? Ever run into the Cartel's enforcer? There are plenty of places to get executed for your crimes if you are a pirate.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 09:43 am: Edit

TOS was not completely consistent about the death penalty, however. There were other episodes that seemed to imply its availability as a punishment in some cases. In at least one of those episodes, (the "Redjack" one - I don't recall the actual name of the episode) I believe the planet in question was not yet a member of the Federation, though I don't recall for sure. But in "I Mudd" there is reference to the death penalty for fraud (implying that on the planet in question it was used for a fairly wide range of crimes). There is also reference to the death penalty for treason in one of the books that was published back in the TOS era (though probably after the show itself had gone off the air). I'm not sure to what extent the book would be considered cannon.

It may be that rules within the Federation were not uniform, with different jurisdictions applying the death penalty for different crimes, just as in the U.S. some individual states have the death penalty and some do not.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:15 am: Edit

Jeff Wile:

To be clear, being "bloody" about the business attracts attention.

It is not the idea that "If I get caught for killing these people, I will be killed".

It is the "If I kill a lot of people, the fleet is going to make it a priority to track my ship down and put me out of business one way or another."

I have never, at any point, said that as a Pirate you should never kill. All I have ever said is (in essence) that "you do not want to conduct your business in such manner that the powers that be fill it necessary to put you out of business."

You do not need to do things that result in the local starfleet and local police deciding that your ship must be taken out of service. And of course to accomplish that would mean making a major effort against the Cartel as a whole, which will get the Cartel Lord after you because the increased police and fleet pressure will impact the Cartel's "business" and its "profit margin". This can cause the Cartel Lord to put a bounty on you himself, or simply send the Enforcer to teach you the error of your ways.

And the Cartel essentially controls all of the logistical assets you need to remain in business yourself. Moving to another Cartel after creating a ruckus in your current Cartel area is probably NOT an option, a the receiving Cartel will assume that you are likely to create the same sort of ruckus in his area. Plus there might be good reason to turn you over to the other Cartel for "political" reasons.

And remember that the Cartel would not have let you purchase your ship without doing its own background checks on you (for example, discovering whether or not you are a police agent, but definitely whether or not you are a homicidal maniac).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:35 am: Edit

Killing freighter crews also has an affect on other Orions within the "franchise district".

If the usual 3 POLs becomes 9 POLs and POL-CV with 8 of them looking for your ship; you've still managed to at least double the likelihood that one bumbling POL will run across one of the other LRs working your franchise-district.

That being the case, the other four LRs in you franchise district might consider it worth their while to vap' you and your ship and hope the "federalies" get it into their heads that you've "moved on" before hiding out starts to agitated the cartel bosses.
Although on rereading, this was already covered above.

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 12:21 am: Edit

The death penalty for fraud? I am sure that there are a few people that would like to see a person or two get that for what was done at Enron, Arthur Anderson... well, just say 'a host of companies'.
MJC- they might even leave the hulk where the authorities are going to find it to ensure that they know the 'problem' is no more. It can get the law player to back off their concentration. The 'reserve' units for the search have to come from somewhere and if it is just working more ships out about at a time, then the crews are getting lest r&r time.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 02:56 am: Edit

Actually the other LRs problably wouldn't vap' the ship.

Now cut a deal with the X.O. that he gets some quick cash if he personally vap's the captain, now that's something the other LR captains are more likely to do...popping an LR without cartel consent is probably not a good idea^TM.

By John R. Poirier, Esq (Joisey) on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 02:01 pm: Edit

So, is there any problem with a player running a colony who decides to make his Colonial Shipping Line "self escorting" by putting fighters on the LASH Skid and Ducktail?

I understand that drones are straight out of the question: No ready racks, and it's too dangerous to keep drones loaded on fighter hard points indefinitely. But what if the player wants to replace the HTS shuttles with F-7's or F-16's (without their anti-fighter drones)?

The player is making a concious decision to pay higher fees for the services of Longshoremen at his destination in exchange for improving his chances of having his ships arrive in one piece.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 02:57 pm: Edit

John: R11 includes an actual "fighter skid" that does exactly what you want.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 03:31 pm: Edit

"So, is there any problem with a player running a colony who decides to make his Colonial Shipping Line "self escorting" by putting fighters on the LASH Skid and Ducktail?"

Yes. The operating expenses of keeping fighters ready to fight (when 98% of them never do) mean you'll be bankrupt.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 05:30 pm: Edit

The very concept fails too, even before the cost of the fighters.

First, not every freighter get hijacked or even encounters a Pirate. Every freighter has heard of them though.

Second, a few fighters will make only the smallest raiders think twice and will invite bigger raiders to see what is so worth protecting... and when they find they've wasted their time they will punish you for it.

For the most part, Pirates don't want to force the police or local navy to have to act because people are dying and freighters are being destroyed. Besides, a destroyed freighter only brings you the booty once. Even the mafia knows you don't take ALL the money and destroy the business. You skim of the top and keep coming back.


I'd like to see a scenario where a freighter is being attacked by a monster and a Pirate that routinely raids that shipping line comes to the rescue. While he never puts his ship in great danger the pirate realizes that it can pay off in the long run in addition to the immediate rewards.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 07:37 pm: Edit

That is an interesting story idea there, Loren. Almost reminds me of why some look up to the Yakuza, because they portrayed themselves as protecting the peasentry from worse forces.

By John R. Poirier, Esq (Joisey) on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Mike: Thanks. I am waiting for the next issue of CL to come out to order R11.

Steve: I have what I think is an exceptional situation---The Colony owns it's own small fleet of freighters. Further, the Colony is already paying the overhead cost for defense fighters. Under this narrow set of circumstances, the Colony is only incurring increased Longshoremen fees at it's destination (plus the fighter detachment not being around to defend the colony). I believe this is a discretionary situation where bankruptcy is not a real concern.

Loren: Ahhh! You have hit upon the $64,000 MegaCredit question: Just what ARE the odds of a freighter being attacked by a pirate, or of a colony being raided/looted by a pirate?

I'm looking for an answer expressed in terms of a die roll. If my campaign progresses in time increments of months, what should the die roll be that on any given month, my colony will be subjected to a pirate raid? Assume I roll on each month's "turn". How many dice, and what number will turn up a pirate raid?

Same question on the freighter run: If I am sending out a freighter every month/turn, or have a freighter returning to my colony every month/turn, what should the die roll be to determine if this month's run is the one when a pirate comes a calling? How many dice, and what number will turn up a pirate attack on my freighter? Let's quantify once and for all exactly what "rare" means.

Assume for the sake of this question that I'm not hauling out of the colony anything fancy: Just grain and raw ore. With Pirate's information networks, I think it's safe to say that whoever are the local franchise pirates in my neighborhood will know what my cargo is, and my flight plan, if they want it (although this might not cover the "freelancer pirate" who is poaching on the franchisee's territory. Therefore, not all pirates may know the value of my cargo. Furthermore, the runs back to my Colony will be carrying high value stuff---new ground bases, colonists, (a.k.a. slaves to you Orions) drones, crated fighters, mines, defsats, etc. Just the kind of things that sell well on the Black Market.

I would expect that the odds go up as my colony acquires the ability (through research) to export more valuable products. Ergo, a shipment of wheat might get a yawn from the local pirate, but a shipment of quadrotriticale (at a time when there might be a famine in a nearby system) might garner a second glance.

In a similiar vein, I would expect that anybody running a dilithium mine would have to take the same kind of security precautions that DeBeers does with it's South African mines, i.e., thieves both high and low, skilled and inept, will be trying to grab such a treasure ship.

One more thought: Wouldn't a Colony that put NOTHING into defenses raise the liklihood of the local Pirate deciding that such a situation would be ripe for the plundering? Or at least a Protection Racket/ Tribute Demand?

Statistics are not created in a vacuum, and weakness is provacative.

I look forward to your insights.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 11:16 pm: Edit

Off the top of my head I'd say they odds are no worse than 1:100 but could be 1:250 or 1:500. There no telling just what the ratio of freighters to pirates is. SVC might know.

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 01:21 am: Edit

Re: die roll probability of a raid: In a campaign game, the probability of a pirate raid would depend on game balance factors: How many colonies exist in the game as a whole; the effects of a raid; etc. For example, the VBAM campaign system has the probability of a raid set fairly high, because there tend to be few systems. The probability is also modified (downwards) by the presence of navy or police ships, and (upwards) by the presence of merchant convoys. Heavily defended colonies and convoys won't be attacked, but OTOH it costs money to defend them.

Re: Joisey's response to SVC: Colonies have defenses to defend the colony. This is because the colony is valuable. If it's a colony that's prosperous enough to afford fighters and the facilities to run them, it's a very valuable colony. What could the freighters possibly be carrying that is so much more valuable than the colony itself?! Valuable enough to weaken the colony's defenses while it is being transported?

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 10:47 am: Edit

Jon: Well, for one thing, the fighters could just escort the freighters. Fighters aren't limited to one SFB mapsheet, they can actually go a pretty good distance; long enough to get the freighters past anyone who's sitting right next to the colony. And once you're past that perimeter, then anyone who wants to get to you will be really obvious about it--unless they're a really stealthy (and skilled, and lucky) pirate. If you get out to the escort limit and there's an unknown incoming, the fighters just hang out and wait; otherwise they go back to the planet and the freighter hits the trail.

"Assume for the sake of this question that I'm not hauling out of the colony anything fancy: Just grain and raw ore."

If that's the case, then no pirate is going to bother you. The archives of this thread (and one of the recent Captain's Logs) have a good discussion on how pirates operate in the SFU. They don't just steal everything they come across and kill anyone they meet; that's an act of open aggression and governments will assign military resources to deal with it.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:04 am: Edit

John Poirer,

Please read my thread and story about the battle between "The Weary Donkey" (my freighter with fighter skids) and "Love Ewe" (Michael John Campbells LR).

We hashed out a lot of this. And to be fair, MJC made a LOT of valid points, but I think that you MUST have governmental interest in this cargo to get fighters. And by government, I mean LOCAL government, as the Interstellars would use Q ships, Tugs, or Armed (militarized freighters). The local government has all those Army/ National Guard soldiers "sitting around getting paid" in the eyes of some (misguided) officials...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:54 am: Edit

Module R11 covered and specifically limited such use to freighters that were NOT going to leave the system, and the fighters on the freighter MUST be detached from a fighter ground base at on the planet the freighter is at. There are not going to be thousands, hundreds, tens, or even one freighter traveling in various convoys as a pseudo carrier. See (R1.68H) and (R1.68W).

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 12:22 pm: Edit

And if you really absolutely totally completely truly MUST have fighters escorting your convoy...then you can use an FEV. (Or even a Small Auxiliary Carrier, if you can get ahold of one; and if you're rich enough to be buying fighters then you can probably afford an AuxCV.)