Seltorian Eggs hum and chirp and are fuzzy like Tribbles??? Heh, now that would be funny!

By Darin Smith (Dsmith) on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 03:09 am: Edit

Didn't the Seltorians make peaceful contact with the Hydrans? Perhaps they would go back there for help if they had a Queen.....

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:18 pm: Edit

The reason I have a few Seltorians escaping to a small system outside the galactic energy barrier is there is no where they could survive in the Alpha sector. The Vudar took over part of the Klingon empire. A single F&E hex system already exists; Wyn cluster.

The population of workers is easy to control; they die in 2+ years. Just mature fewer eggs. When the Seltorian command structure was destroyed the surviving sages could develop a different mission- kill everyone. Outside the galaxy they could build new ships and become a major minor-menace as raiders.

The background in C3 indicated the Seltorian Tribunal sent out expeditions each year. Perhap a second one was sent to this galaxy a few years later. The Seltorians in the globular cluster broadcast a homing signal that the second expeditions follows to them. More resources and ships.

The resurgence could occur about the time the Xorks attack. The Xorks remind the Seltorians of the Tholians; they hate both races. Perhaps the Seltorians could become a factor that helped defeat the Xorks.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 12:12 am: Edit

I doubt the Xorks will remind the Seltorians of the Tholians. The Selts don't hate Tholians because they are tough and mean imperialists. The Seltorian hate for Tholians is a special hate. A very deep seeded hate.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 12:22 am: Edit

The similarity is the enslavement of a subjugated race. Xorks are in the citadel/bridge area of the ship and the slave-crew outside of the citadel. This image would be a trigger for the deep-seated hatred, which can be transfered to another object, Xorks. Given how the ISC and Klingons treated the Seltorians the Xorks will be even worse. This would result in very violent battles.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 12:36 am: Edit

No, that's not why the Selt hate the Tholians. It is likely the Seltorians would hate the Xorks but not because of any similarities. Seltorians can be pretty rough themselves.

I wouldn't want to live under Seltorian rule. I'd much rather live under Klingon rule.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 10:40 am: Edit

Missing egg? One word; cloning.
regards
Stacy

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Loren,

Whatever the reasons, these two maniacal races met and try to obliterate each other. I am trying not to conflict with what you are doing in PDT, since that will be real SFU history and background.

My intent by, putting Seltorians outside of the galaxy, is to allow for a different Seltorian development. They would become a major minor-menace rather than an invading force. They would be more a marauding force rather than like the Orion pirates.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Joseph, if you REALLY want the Selts to seriously hate the Xorks have the Xorks betray and attempt to enslave them. That will get them really hating the Xorks but will not relate to why they hate the Tholians. No race can replicate all of what the Tholians did but attempting to enslave the Seltorians would be enough to make them a bitter enemy.


A Seltorian force outside the galaxy would have several duties:
1) Keep the government at M81 informed as to everything they can about the MWG and the status of the Tholians.
2) Set up a base of operations to recieve relef forces from M81 and to launch attacks against the Holdfast from somewhere other than Klingon space.
3) Prepare plans to inflict punishment on the Klingon betrayers and possibly the ISC.
4) Gather intel on new threats and forces including the Andromedans and Xorks.

IMHO, of course. SVC might have something other to say.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Loren,

Your outline for force outside the galaxy is basically the same as I am thinking. I would add they would conduct raids of isolated mining planets, convoys, and do recon inforce type attacks.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 06:12 pm: Edit

When Seltorian numbers increase they would conduct less or no raids on occupied planets but would rather start their own secret ones. Early raids might have to be a "leave no witnesses" mission, too.

They might try to look like pirate raids but the empires involved would eventually figure out that these raids are more destructive than any pirate would conduct.

Recon would be part of every galactic incursion.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 10:45 am: Edit

Why focus so much on trying to shoe-horn the Seltorians into Alpha, when both the Omega Octant and Lesser Magellanic Cloud are up for grabs?

No post-Y202 history has yet been written for the Cloud, and Omega has one more Cycle of history to go (the Eighth Cycle, starting in Y222) - though of the two, the Cloud might be an easier choice to go with, since there is more room for them to try and move into (and it lets them try and stage attacks on Tholian space in Alpha, following the routes established by the Unity forces up to the LMC).


Plus, a Nest Ship showing up in, say, the former Neutral Worlds, or the Chomak Cluster, could prove to be a significant headache for the Magellanic races, as they try to rebuild their own shattered empires in the post-Unity period - as well as for any Alpha ships which would have cause to be in the Cloud post-Y202...

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 11:48 pm: Edit

It was just a proposal to start a conversation on what might or could be.

How did the Selts get through the energy barrier? Getting through the barrier carries with it the assumption they were on the outside of the Galaxy. One Idea: There is space terrain outside the Galaxy, which Selts could have been exploring when they found the route in. The Cloud doesn’t seem to have an energy barrier.

The hive ship that arrived in the Alpha sector could have been part of a larger expedition. Two ships went to the Cloud; two went to the Alpha sector with one staying on the outside of the MW Galaxy. That one focused on building a base and shipyard.

The hive/nest ship seems to function as its own strategic movement node (mobile bases). These ships could leap frog through each other for long range travel. One reason to have two plus hive/nest ships in an expedition.

The Selts ability to conduct long range inter-galactic travel would be an advantage that neither the LMC or Alpha races don't have. Also Selts need the access to other technology. The Klingons provided some to the Selts in the Alpha sector. Perhaps one of the races in the Cloud could do the same.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 12:40 am: Edit

You know by now the energy barrier has been pierced so many times it must be like swiss cheese. It's starting to look more and more like the contrivance it is. It's there when it serves a purpose and curiously NOT a problem when it's an inconvenience.

I think we should start viewing it much like a speed bump for extra-galactic invaders

"Slow DOWN before overwhelming Milky Way Galaxy!"

On the other hand judging by the outcome of most invaders perhaps it should be:

"You REALLY don't want to mess with these folks they're CRAZY!"

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 01:09 am: Edit

I have to deal with the energy barrier and I can tell you each time I write the experience having been nearly catastrophic.

As things stand it is the Andros that made the barrier passable without serious risk. As it stands the galactics found three main passages.

The only untold incursion that is out of my hands is the 312th and I intend to say they found a weak spot, perhaps one that was recently used by Andro, although they didn't encounter them.

That leaves the Seltorians, but they likely followed the exact path as the 312th.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 02:13 pm: Edit

This may all be thought out but I can't resist adding my own 2 cent's worth of retcon.

You could tie it up nice and neat if you like. the barrier has a few weak points, portals or breaches, if you will.

The barrier has three weak points or portals into the alpha octet. Slam into it anywhere else and you have huge problem.

Edit: If OpU is following a trail of Andro "bread crumbs" back to the LMC, then it it arguable that the Andros used all three portals into the alpha octet.

One in or near romulan space (interesting what-if: what if the Seltorans arrived in romulan space? would anything be different?) This would be the departure portal for the plasma arm of OpU.

One would be in Tholian space, not only as the way the Tholians themselves got into our galaxy but as the way the 312th met up with them. That would also be the departure point for the photon arm of OpU as well.

The Tholian breach would arguably be the largest breach of all simply because it's the one the Tholains drug small dyson sphere through.

The last would be in klingon space and that would be how the Seltorans entered the galaxy and how the D&D (disruptor & drone) arm of OpU departed for the LMC. (another what-if: what if the portal were in Hydran space and the Selts landed there?)

I don't know what has been set down about the Seltorans and why they eneded up in Klink space but one thing is certain: They aren't stupid. They might have even pierced the tholian breach of the barrier, only to find that the tholian enclave was too entrenched for the hive ship to simply offload its cargo of warships and proceed with the beatdown. They would look for another way in and find it in Klingon space.

One might argue that the Klingon breach might be closer to the Tholian breach than the romulan one.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 02:21 pm: Edit

One of the great dilemmas; how do you get through the energy barrier. There are a number of good story "hooks". How each group makes it through can be different.

The weak spot is one way. Another is an opening created by the MW cannibalizing a smaller galaxy; the stream of stars being incorporated creates the opening.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Remember the SFU Milky Way is not astronomically idential to current understanding.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 03:18 pm: Edit

John,

you should check out the article in CL35. The Tholians do not have a clean pass through the energy barrier, not at all.

As for how the Andros got through I seem to recall it had something to do with the Displacement Device. Maybe they made the holes.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Loren,

I'll check out CL35

I wouldn't expect the tholians to have a clean or easy pass. Just a "passable" one and one large enough to admit a small dyson sphere. It occurs to em that not all pass points would be large enough.

If pass points are rare (and they should be) then each one can and probably should serve multiple plot points.


Now let's talk abotu Andros.

Now in my semi-ignorance of detailed backstory, I would expect that the Dis-Dev, which is linked to the Andro ability to use the RTN, would be how the andros got from their galaxy to ours.

It may also be that RTN travel allows andro ships to "go around" the barrier. That wouldn't give the access to the galaxy but once in, it would give them the ability to move ships in and out.

SFB is a universe of limits and the andros aren't immune just because they're strange. It's easily possible that there's only a stable RTN linkage across one of those same pass points.

Something like this almost has to be the case otherwise the OpU campaign as written is impossible.

IIRC, the backstory is the Alpha Octet powers are following andro RTN nodes back to the LMC and the Andros are trying to stop the Powers from getting to the LMC.

If the andros have the ability to enter the galaxy at will, then they have the ability to erase enough of the trail of RTN breadcrumbs to throw the galactic powers off the scent that leads to the LMC. It's harder to do when paths to/from pass points are the only ways into this part of the galaxy.

Moreover, if the andros can enter the galaxy wherever they want, it's hard for the galactics make the LMC connection in the first place. I trace a line of RTN nodes to the edge of the galaxy. So what? I have no idea where any of the connecting nodes are. If I suspect a node outside the barrier, I have to run out there and check. If node isn't at a pass point in the barrier, I am not running out to check. The trail simply ends. If no other connecting nodes are found, it's easy to assume I have simply been following a RTN spur instead of a main drag.

Unless the Andros use the same pass points as the galactics, they have no way of engaging Galactic forces as those forces push on to the LMC unless by luck an andro path into the galaxy crosses the route the Galactics take to the LMC. Space is big. For that to happen once is lucky like being hit by lightning is unlucky. Three times on all three routes is beyond belief. Space is simply too big. But if the andros must use those same pass points, it makes perfect sense.

If the andros can end-round the Barrier freely then they can continue their invasion even as the Galactic fleets head toward the LMC because those fleets would not be blocking andro access to the galaxy. They can attempt to destroy the galaxy's ability to maintain the Unity fleets by trashing the octet wholesale (or commerce raiding) rather than opposing the Unity forces themselves.

Since no such counter attack took place it's reasonable to assume that the Andros would have to go through the OpU forces to get to the galaxy. This is also implied by the fact that only a few orphaned andro ships were left in the alpha octet after Unity.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 05:37 pm: Edit

The Iridani, whose home space is a globular cluster orbiting the Milky Way, have gradually developed a network of crossing points - helped by agreements signed with various Omega governments, in which said governments allow the Iridani to operate modular supply docks on the galactic side of the Barrier.

And the Iridani were crossing the Barrier and back for decades prior to the Andromedan arrival in the Milky Way.


(However, the Bolosco were caught out by the Barrier when their ships arrived in the Milky Way from M81 - their autopilot systems were not prepared for the damage that the Barrier would cause, and they lost many of their colony arks, sadly...)


If the Selts want to establish a foothold in the Cloud, they would be better served trying to do it after Y202, after the Andromedans had already been defeated, and before any of the Magellanic Powers can recover their losses.

Given the example shown in the Omega timeline - and the map shown on the back of Omega 5 - it would take many years for the Baduvai, Eneen, Maghadim, Jumokians, Chomak and Yrol to reaclaim their lost space (or in the case of the Baduvai, try to incorporate what had once been autonomous Uthiki space - since they are effectively finished as a stellar power) and important worlds such as Sleern, in the Neutral Worlds, are too far from any of the Powers' home space for them to get there in force before a Selt Nest or Hive Ship could claim the region.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 05:43 pm: Edit

The Tholians almost didn't make it at all. The barier is just as dangerous as anywhere. That never meant nothing ever gets through.

I take a que from Star Trek. One instance destroyed a ship, another turned people into demi-gods, another seemed to have little effect when the Enterprise warped through at extreme high warp (and then was navagationally lost).

What seems to be at issue is understanding the energy barrier. I think that OpU certainly used the Andro passes but the Alphas also had a better understanding of the galactic barrier by then, too. What makes it so dangerous is that it's difficult to read and seemingly very dynamic. Also, in earlier years, study of the barrier was probably not something anyone invested much in.
The barrier envelopes the entire galaxy so everyone has accest to it, but its dynamic nature probably lessens the value of any shared information.
Andromeda probably has an even more intense barrier, being a larger galaxy. This perhaps means the Andros had a better understanding of it from the start.
M81 has a relatively benign barrier.

I think that once it is established that the barrier is breachable there will still be the high navigational hazzards. This will have the effect of maintaining the limits on travel. Remember that one of the prime purposes of the barrier in the SFU was to prevent ships from just skipping over other empires to reach others, or to attack a point without having to travel through defenses. I think that traveling outside the galaxy will still be like traveling through voids. OpU happened because there was a very careful and expensive effort to travel to a place far outside the realm of proximity space (what I call the area just outside the galaxy that is full of dark navigational hazzards).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Again, I would point out the outrider found in the Iridani Cluster - which, despite how it looks on the Omega maps, is actually a great deal farther away from the Galactic Rim - who had been sending ships back and forth through the Barrier, of several size classes (from frigates up to battlships) through into the Milky Way and back home, for almost a century prior to the Andromedan War, and long afterwards (Iridani ships escorted the GSX Sakharov back to the Federation in Y219).


Supply points in Omega aside - which would still not always have been present when an Iridani Quest crossed over - there has to be a reason why the Iridani were able to make regular crossings without too much difficulty... after the first less-than-successful tests, that is.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 06:30 pm: Edit

I don't know if we can apply the Iridani-approach to breaching the Energy Barrier, whole-scale to the entire galaxy.

The Iridani might have a something that allows them to pass undamaged through the Energy Barrier, or it just might be weaker below the Iridani Cluster (maybe some influence of the Cluster on the Barrier).

It seems like it's a GM-thing (as in SVC's perogative it seems) to use to prevent/allow passage into the galaxy.

EDIT: I actually don't know how much 'blessing' Bruce Graw got from SVC when he wrote up the Omega-background and history. It was probably not even brought up that the Iridani cross the Energy Barrier every time they enter the galaxy proper.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 06:43 pm: Edit

The issue of the Energy Barrier is made quite explicit in the Iridani background in their R-section - there is a 'wall of heroes' on Iridia, the otter-knights' Throne Planet, listing the names of those who volunteered to be the early pioneers at crossing the Barrier...

...most of whom, let's say, didn't end well.

While they may have developed some sort of unique setup or technique which allows them access to the Milky Way - access which works when going to the Federation, as demonstrated in Y219 - I'm not quite sure that the Barrier would necessarily be thinner in Omega than it is for Alpha.


The other listed case of Barrier-travel, that of the Bolosco, was also detailed in their own R-section - and just as the Tholians had severe problems with the Sphere (and coming from the same galaxy, to boot) the Bolosco expedition to Omega nearly lost everything.

(Technically, the Souldra and Loriyill could be argued to have crossed the Barrier for their own reasons, but they are both ancietn and mysterious races, who would presumably know what they are doing.)


Given the inevitable issues of crossover that would, and indeed do, appear between Alpha and Omega (and between the Cloud and Omega - and in that case, Ken Burnside's vision for the Cloud was vetted to fit the pre-existing setting before module C5 was published) it is hard to imagine that Omega was not similarly vetted when it was published. Indeed, SPP himself was in charge of the most recent module, and he's in as good a position to work out setting-wide issues with SVC as anybody.


(My own opinion, of course - I don't wish to speak on their behalf.)


Oh, and one other case of Barrier-crossing - the fiction pieces in CL33 showed how Juggernaut Alpha suffered damage when it crossed the Barrier, but the information it was able to pass onto Beta and Gamma meant that neither of the latter ships faced the same difficulties.

Well, Beta didn't, at least - we don't know yet about Gamma...