You would think the Andros would have the same problem with the barrier that they have with the WYN cluster only magified.

I wouldn't want to be the andro that tried to penetrate the barrier with its panels up, anyway.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 08:12 pm: Edit

John,

the galactic energy barrier doesn't seem to interact with shields or in any manner similar to the Wyn zone. It's some sort of enigmatic energy that may or may not interact with whatever. It could be that power absorbers handle barrier energy quite well, but Wyn Zone energy is hard radiation and fills their pannels very quickly.

But as I said earlier, I think it might have something to do with the Displacement Device. Either they displace through it in rapid displacements and high warp or they displace the energy infront of them, a bit at a time, litterally boring a hole through it; a process that may take months. They then drop some sort of radio isotope to mark the trail through.

Star Trek does indicate that bursting through at maximum warp is a safer way to get through (limiting exposure but perhaps playing the odds against hitting some sort of random energy wave).

Maybe the energy barrier is a place where it tends to kill the uninformed, but once you learn its nature it is far less dangerous (but neither does it ever become a safe place).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 08:18 pm: Edit

I would suggest that traveling outside the galactic energy barrier is also very dangerous until you leave the dark matter halo. One of the things I've been working on is the nature of large voids that things disappear into. It isn't that they are just empty spaces but that there is lots of dark material hazzards that warp ships can collide with. Imagine traveling at high warp and suddenly striking a unilluminated dust cloud. You end up severly damaged and now unable to navigate because there is no stellar reference. I suggest that near proximity extra galactic space be very much like this. You approach galaxies with caution.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Perhaps the energy barrier is in fact a manifestation of the Organians who seek to limit outside interference with the Milky Way.
regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Well, I'm establishing (unless otherwise over turned) that other galaxies have energy barriers in PDT. In fact, I believe we've done that already in CL35.

I worked with SVC on that article and it incorporates several things I worked on for PDT. What I couldn't establish (nor SPP, although I think I was more wrong that he) was what exactly happened between the Tholians and the Klingons and the three colonies in those first few years. SVC had to intervene and clear us both up and it was that e-mail that turned into the CL35 article.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Loren
Other galaxies may have their own "Organians". Truthfully the barrier as an artificial construct makes FAR more sense than as a natural phenomenon.

The "selective" ability for outsiders to pass through may have been Organian self fulfilling prophecy who DID predict that the Federation and Klingons would one day be allies.

If not the Organians it may be an artifact of the Old Kings to protect the galaxy OR prevent others from following them when they departed. That there may be such barriers around other galaxies may be part of a greater mystery narrative attached to the disappearance of the elder races of old galaxies.

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 10:37 pm: Edit

I disagree. This is a universe that uses warp engines and sub-space. The galactic energy barrier is nothing more than that.

The Organians are peaceful and respectful people and the energy barrier does terrible things. As soon as it kills an inocent they would drop it.

No, if the Organians were to do something like that to keep people out then it would be a benign field that just teleports intruders backward about a parsec the moment they hit it. In other words, you'd just bounce off it.

As to exactly WHAT the energy barrier is might be something more rooted in sub-space that only affects sub-space. Since at warp you are delving into sub-space it affects you. If you travel through it at sub-light there is no effect, which is why light passes through cleanly (so you can see other galaxies). However, it would take years to pass through at sub-light. The only practical way to go through it is at warp speed but then that exposes you to the dangers, your warp engines actually drawing in the energies to you. Being other-space energy, this is why it does such unpredictable things.

Maybe the displacement device weakens this effect, what with it being a sub-space interacting device.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Which doesn't change the notion that it's an artifact just that maybe it's not an Organian one.

And in the end it IS unquestionably an artifact created by Gene L. Coon.

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 12:29 am: Edit

The GLC Sub-space barrier effect.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 12:35 am: Edit

Loren,

The current rules,(G18.72), state terrain zones cannot be displaced. While the energy barrier hasn't been defined it would appear it is a terrain zone unless it is otherwise defined. I would be okay with the idea that the energy barrier is a sub-space field and isn't a terrain zone under (G18.72).

John's point about finding the Andro connection outside of the energy barrier is a good one. Perhaps a Fed GSX was one of the first Alpha sector ships to penetrate the barrier. The surveys this ship conducted found RTN traces.

One problem with this way of movement through the energy barrier is the requirement for high warp speed. Freighters and tugs don't move at high warp. My suggestion would be the previously mentioned GSX also found some weak spots or voids in the energy barrier. These voids were the starting points for the OpU routes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 02:38 am: Edit

JRC: I doubt that in any case it would be something that could be conducted during a scenario, which (G18.72) certainly does regulate. Remember, I suggest it probably takes months (maybe more).

I do think that high speed is one part of the solution. The other would be learning to read the barrier in some way. Earlier, I suggestedthat the Andros might justhave a lot of experience dealing with a strong barrier. They might get through unharmed by first having located a weaker zone then race through it RTN style. The Alphas then later get through by putting the pedal to the metal and setting up a navigational beacon on each side (using the same location as the Andros).
In other cases it might be a matter of some luck coupled with high speed attempts. One might shut down or separate backup systems so that they can't be overloaded by general system surges. When you get to the other side alive, you chill out and repair. Expecting damage and preparing for it is certainly a methode I'd employ.

Freighters and Tugs do move at high warp, BTW. Anything over tactical warp, warp 3.2, is high warp. Freighters can make warp 4.5, while Tugs are standard warp ship and can make at least standard warp speed which is warp 7 and I believe they can still make standard dash speed which is 9.25 (see GURPS PD page 160).

Early attempts to traverse the barrier were probably at tactical speeds so they could make scans and study the barrier. Later they learned to not stop and smell the flowers in a galactic energy barrier. Its on the list right after "You don't tug on Supermans cape."

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 07:47 am: Edit

The Iridani have tugs they have used to ferry base modules into Omega - both when setting up licenced supply points, and in the time when efforts were made to establish colonies on the galactic rim (such as the ill-fated New Kingdom, which was crushed by the Andromedans just prior to the Sixth Cycle).

So, if they can get their tugs through...


...it would only matter if I was talking about something not in Omega modules, I suppose.


I was going to add that according to Module C5, "It is known that the Iridani and Bolosco sent ships to the Lesser Magellanic Cloud at different points in time." and thus the Bolosco must also have learned from their exodus ships' fate when entering the Milky Way when they were planning missions out to the likes of the Cloud and elsewhere. It also states "It is probable that the Loriyill and Souldra had a minor presence in the LMC as well." - and indeed, there is a scenario in print which has a Souldra vessel, and base, in the Cloud - all the way in the Core. However long ago Souldra and Loriyill ships had reason to leave the Milky Way, there would be the matter of how they themselves got past the Barrier - but then, as noted, they are both groups of mysterious, ancient beings, who may have tricks not available to their younger rivals.


Oh, and Loren - I was also going to say that it migh be worth noting for PD Tholians that in the Omega timeline, the Iridani sent a ship to the Alpha Octant in the Y140s or Y150s (I don't have the timeline to hand, so I can't quite remember) but unfortunately ended up in the Holdfast, where it was destroyed by the Tholians - who weren't willing to risk the possibility that they weren't Seltorians.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 09:58 am: Edit

Loren,

I don't think my post was clear regarding terrain zones. These are: heat zones, radiation zones etc. Unlike an object a DisDev can't obtain a lock-on to a terrain feature (G18.13). Second issue is how do you move heat and radiation, to where, and then stop the adjacent terrain from just filling back in?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 11:49 am: Edit

Joseph
I don't think Loren means that you can displace the barrier (at least I HOPE that's not what he meant). I think he is making reference to the displacement device's role on the rapid transit system that allows the Andromedans to move much faster at high warp than the galactics-in this case presumably it means they can pass through the barrier quicker than standard warp.

Of course it begs the question as to how the original transit line was surveyed...but I think that's what he means.

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 01:19 pm: Edit

I meant to offer both possabilities. I had also suggested that the energy barrier is perhaps a sub-space phenominon, which is why we don't normally see it. But travel at warp and you are exposed to it. Therefore being a sub-space phenominon the displacement device might have some sort of interaction with it, weakening it. Indeed, that might have been the original role of the device.
Alternatively, it might help them via RTN style. If we assume they have experience from M31s strong barrier (also an assumption) then they probably know that you have to burst through at maximum warp and hope you don't hit anything when you blow out the otherside. That is, you take a blind stab at it in a place it appears to be weakest. This original probing unit has all but the minimum systems taken off-line and once accross it can then set up transit beacons, or it lays down a trail of some sort.
There is no history that says there is RTN nodes on each side of the energy barrier so I'd tend to go with the radio isotope trail idea. You'd have to either directly observe the Andro's coming through or know what to look for.
What probably happened then, is that one barrier pass was discovered by observing an Andro in action. The area was scanned and the isotope discovered. The other passes were then discovered in time.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 01:22 pm: Edit

It's funny that I have to find out about Omega/Tholian history via the BBS.

Thanks Gary.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Loren
You didn't KNOW about the Iridani Quester intrusion into the Holdfast? (Shock and incredulity)
regards
Stacy

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Does SFB have a continuity cop?

If not, it has grown to the point where it needs one.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 03:54 pm: Edit

SVC and SPP are the continuity cops but it is a really big job. They are assisted by the various staffers who provide a lot of backup. I say that being one on several projects. The staffers do catch a lot of stuff in work that is already very well honed. It is a seriously complex task putting together a SFB module and continuity is a big part.
Then there is this BBS.
Other than that, I don't think there can be one particular person that could really handle it. SPP is pretty darn sharp when it comes to SFB. I can't see anyone standing in over him when it comes to SFU continuity.

Stacy,

I do not have Omega 5 and was not informed (or do not recall it.) I do keep almost an excessive amount of notes and all ADB e-mails in my PDT files, which I review from time to time. If I was informed, I probably would have found it when doing the overall review.

A long time ago, I think it was Gary, that informed me about the Bolosco being from M81. I have accounted for them in a round about way, without tying them to Tholian history.

I'll have to get SPP to send me the excerpt on the Iridani intrusion but it soesn't sound like it will be any sort of history turning event (that is, the insident will be added but nothing rewritten... I think).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 03:54 pm: Edit

John:

Nah - it just needs more people to but Module C5 and the Omega Master Rulebook...

Loren:

Glad to help.

Just to note that the OMRB is a pretty good one-stop-shop - though I would still recommend picking up Omega 5 anyway.

Not least, since it has those Drex PFs that the Will might well have fought in that Wormhole War of Y212...

...or, at least, what was Y212 in our galaxy.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 04:32 pm: Edit

PDT will not work with data beyond Y204, which is the data of the intelligence file I'm working with.

Later years will be done in X2.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Loren
The Iridani visit to the Holdfast may have been mentioned in Omega 5 but that's NOT where I saw it. It was in the earlier Omegas. I haven't seen 5 yet.I was just surprised you hasn't seen it.
regards
Stacy

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 04:50 pm: Edit

I just thought of a very simple and rather undetectable way of getting in and out of a galaxy with a Barrier.

If you can spare the time.

The galactic barriers are natural subspace phenomina? That's why we don't see it right now?

Enter or exit in normal space.

This only works if the barrier is thin, but thin is supported by trek continuity.

It would be a great way of smuggling a dyson pshere into or out of a galaxy. I can imagine the Seltorans right after winning their war dashing around their galaxy everywhere looking for that missing Tholian dyson sphere while the entire Tholian migration group is at the edge of the galaxy, has its warp engines powered down watcing go by overhead and they poke along slowly through the barrier.

It'd be the biggest sublight evasion of all time.

It's also a simple way for an andro scout to slip into our galaxy for a look-see. It took the andros, what? 200 years to cross the gulf between andromeda and the milky way? months or even a year in transit though the galactic barrier wouldn't be much on top of that.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Loren:

To clarify, the Drex fight took place in Y212 in Omega - where the battle was detailed in their timeline - but due to the time-dilatory effects of such a long-range wormhole (stretching all the way over to M81) they ended up fighting the Old Galaxy Tholians, and thus at a time prior to the Seltorian Rebellion (after which there were no Old Galaxy Tholians for the Drex to fight).


And as Stacy said, the Iridani visit to Tholian space is not in Omega 5 - it's in the Omega MRB, and in either Omega 1 or Omega 2 (I can't recall which, as I don't have the books on hand).

The Iridani escorting of the Sakharov in Y219 is in Omega 5 (and the OMRB) however.


Oh, Loren - does the information you have put into PDT preclude the possibility of a Seltorian ship or fleet arriving in the Cloud after Y202 - or even in Y204 itself?

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Just a quick interjection to something that got mentioned yesterday -

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Quote:

One would be in Tholian space, not only as the way the Tholians themselves got into our galaxy but as the way the 312th met up with them. That would also be the departure point for the photon arm of OpU as well.

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Quote:

(another what-if: what if the portal were in Hydran space and the Selts landed there?)

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