First among equals might be a political line but the reason the Seltorians hate the Tholians isn't because of how they ran their empire. Frankly, that's just not a deep enough reason for total genocide.

I think the primary reason the Seltorians approached the Klingons is because that is the empire they encountered first when approaching the Tholians and they were please to see the Klingons where currently at war with the Tholians; it was a no brainer.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Enemy of my enemy...

..was my freind for a while anyway.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 05:06 pm: Edit

If SPP is correct enemy of my enemy is my deferred lunch
regards
Stacy

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Did the Selts sneak in through "the hole" at Vudar? I mean, where exactly did they enter through the energy barrier.

We know the Tholians entered right about where they ended up (due to damage from the entry).

And that the Andros had 3 routes out through the barrier (that were transited in reverse for Op Unity).

And the Iridani have a hole over in Omega (iirc).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Occam's Razor (plus a little SPP speculation) suggests they got in at the same general spot where the 312th made contact with the Hydrans and found their way to the Klingons one one side or the other of the barrier.

Much depends on how porous the barrier is.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 08:44 pm: Edit

That's the premis I've been working with.

The barrier is an enigma so far. From what is published it's somewhat a matter of luck getting through. It would seem that once you find a survivable way through (with luck) you can continue to get through that point for at least a time. This isn't an established fact, just my current theory.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Seltorians have a range of behaviors from the slug-like queen to the homicidal frenzy of the avenger teams. The workers are task focused and the sages outcome focused. I do not attribute the sense of honor and duty that the humanoid races in the Alpha sector share.

The bugs practice genocide as a normal way of life. They will use any empire to accomplish their overall goal, which may not stop at just destroying the Tholians. Seltorians are, in many aspects, a race that follows Occam's razor: (from Wipedia) "This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood."

Seltorians will select the simplest approach to destroying the Tholians. If that isn't immediately possible what is the next simplest goal? Leave build a fleet and come back.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 12:32 am: Edit

There is a bigger picture involved. Before there is "leave, build a fleet, come back" there is survive, find a way to leave without being noticed, and wait for reinforcements which are know to be coming because the signal was sent.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 06:11 pm: Edit

The Iridani did not necessarily have just one point in the Barrier where they came through - apparently, one of the reasons why they signed agreements with various Omega powers for the licence to place supply docks in the Octant was to facilitate travel at the various points the Questers used to travel through the Energy Barrier (in one direction or another).

Perhaps their unique position and experience resulted in some sort of technology quirk that is not represented on their SSDs, but allows them to have a (slightly) easier time of it when crossing back and forth?


(When it comes to trans-Barrier crossings, the Bolosco suffered a similar fate to the Tholians - their autopiloted ships were unprepared for the strength of the Milky Way's barrier, and the majority of the colony ships were lost in the transition. The poor blobs might have been forgiven for thinking that once they settled in, that things would be plain sailing from there on in...)

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 06:12 pm: Edit

John and Loren.

I think that place IS the hole in Vudar space. Or are there TWO places right about there that have a weakness?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Given that the Hydrans were still stuck in the Old Colonies when the 312th arrived, for them to be the ones to direct the Squadron to Tholia, the entry point may have had to have been somewhere in the Delta Sector - ie off the F&E map - or, perhaps, maybe at the very edge of Gamma Sector (assuming that the Hydrans had at least one on-map hex, 0119 for example, in their possession at the time).

However, given that the Andromedans were already in the process of building up their RTN network in Alpha, they would have had an entry point somewhere along the rimward edge of Gamma Sector - and if the Neo-Tholians were actually looking for it (as opposed to just crashing through the Barrier the way the Dyson Sphere or the Bolosco Guildships had) they might have noted that point...

...and been lucky enough to not run into an in-transit Andromedan force at the same time.



Actually, here's a question - if the Neo-Tholians (and Seltorians) were island-galaxy-hopping on their way to the Alpha Octant, how likely is it that they would have missed the presence of Andromedan ships and bases along the way?

(For the Andros to get to Alpha or the Cloud, they in turn may have had to island-galaxy-hop - and as hinted in CL35, perhaps they control one or more of said clusters/satellite galaxies which the 312th and Torch would have passed on the way here?)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 06:29 pm: Edit

I've always wondered how the 312th made it accross the Klingon Empire in the state they were in. I guess the answer is "vehwee carfullwee."

As for Andro entry points, don't forget that the galactic rim isn't the only place to enter the galaxy. The barrier surrounds the galaxy around, and top and bottom (I know there is not top and bottom in space but you all get what I'm saying). One could enter the galaxy at any point, but once you do you must travel along the disk or take your chances going through the barrier again (twice) for very little gain.

Maybe the Tholians figured that the outer edges of galaxies are typically less populated, that space faring civilizations are more likely to rise in the middle sectors of a given galaxy. Places near the core can end up being high traffic areas for intergalactic trade and such. Entering at the rim gave them (in theory) a better chance of finding unclaimed territory and to be left along. Unfortuately, the barrier is what determined their final settlement, which wasn't as bad as it could have been.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 06:40 pm: Edit

I'd sooner suggest that the 312th came in though an Andro-punched weak spot, found out where the Sphere was, went back through, flew over the galactic disk, found a second Andro-punched spot (which may have been placed in, say, 2619 or 3219, or not) and dove in once more.

While using the weaker spots mitigated the damage, the cumulative strain of three crossings in a relatively short time, with ships that had been cannibalizing themselves for most of their journey (even assuming they ever stopped to forage in any clusters or satellite galaxies en route) would have had a similar effect that one less successful crossing would have had.


And while I mentioned earlier the issue of the Iridani using other points along the disc to try and get in and out, they have a different viewpoint to such operations than the Andromedans.

While the Iridani were primarily concerned with Quests, they could arrange treaties and deals with various Omega governments, and come through deep within the disc.

The Andros, in contrast, wanted to establish routes into Alpha (and Omega) which they could establish as reasonably secure beach-heads - and the rim would be as good a place as any to do this. (Indeed, it took a long time for the Alphas to find the beach-heads - and the Omega powers had to have the Iridani tell them what to look for, and only then after Unity broke the back of the Andro efforts in Omega.)

Tellingly, the few exceptions to the typical Iridani policy point to a rimward entry point - when Duke Imbri tried to set up colonies in Omega in Y87, and the New Kingdom was forged in Y187, both were established along the Rim.

Also, the Grand Quest to re-take the Cluster was apparently launched from the Rim - but it's not yet clear where the subsequent Crusade fleets came into Omega from.

EDIT: I would offer a caveat, in that perhaps other entry points might be similarly useful - those bordering the Voids separating the various Octants. The Bolosco apparently crossed the Barrier on the Omega side of the Alpha-Omega Void - at least, there was where they established their new home space upon arrival (and after purchasing the territory from the Probr and Trobrin).

Perhaps other Void-facing regions of space were similarly out-of-the-way enough for other would-be entrants to the Milky Way?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 07:16 pm: Edit

There's no reason to assume the 312th would ever penetrate the barrier in force, precisely because their ships weren't in the best shape.

They'd probably nominate one ship to make the crossing. While one ship can be attacked and defeated, a full fleet can get an entire civilization mobilizing against them.

Remember also that the 312th probably didn't get lucky. They may have had to penetrate the barrier any number of times before they struck paydirt.

You don't do that with an entire fleet, especially not a fleet of ships in sore need of maintenance.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Well, the Bolosco's fleet of guildships crossed into the galaxy together, one at a time - though their ships were on autopilot.

And since they were also from M81, they would be familiar with the weaker barrier surrounding that galaxy, and would be as unprepared as a Tholian force might be - or, at least, as unprepared as the Sphere was.

Although, perhaps the 312th and the Torch were more careful.

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 08:02 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Remember also that the 312th probably didn't get lucky. They may have had to penetrate the barrier any number of times before they struck paydirt.

---

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 09:06 pm: Edit

If the Hydrans were bottled up in the Old colonies, I doubt anyone would miss the wartime footing the Colonies would have to have been on.

First contact could have been a Hydran fleet confronting whatever the 312th sent in to investigate, which would dispel any lingering questions about how empty that corner of space was (the hydrans would have had to be on the lookout for klingons and ready to make VERY sure that any ship discovering them would not survive the revelation or phone it back to Imeprial HQ)

"Whew. It's only tholian refugees from another galaxy."

An interesting what-if scenario would be a hydran patrol squadron down the 312th if First Contact had gone badly.

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 09:37 pm: Edit

John -

Keep in mind that the Old Colonies are at the edge of the "unexplored territory" beyond the Hydran Kingdoms. While the Hydrans would no doubt have been milking the known areas of that region for all that they were worth, there would still have been quite a lot of space out beyond that no one had looked at very closely. If that wasn't the case, then the Hydrans wouldn't be at one of the edges of the F&E map.

In short, the possibility I suggested was that the 312th arrived at the edge of the Hydran exploration where an Outrider-class survey vessel may have stumbled across them while looking for new planets that the Kingdom could exploit.

It's just a possibility, though.

---

Quote:

"Whew. It's only tholian refugees from another galaxy."

An interesting what-if scenario would be a hydran patrol squadron down the 312th if First Contact had gone badly.

---

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Interesting tho9ught. I think web casters would work best as a command ship item.

Think Lord Marshall with the Web Casters replacing the hellbores. Or if that's under-powered, a Lord Bishop with Fusions instead of Hellbores and Web Casters where the fusions normally go.

Absorbing web caster tech would probably be something the hydrans could only do if they chose the casters over developing hellbores.

Web casters hit on Drone hits when on a Hydran Hybrid ship.

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Hydrans already had Hellbores when the 312th arrived. In any event, it's just something to have fun with (and scare Klingons and Lyrans). A Ranger with the casters is slightly scarier imo because the Fusion Beam works better with the tactic of shoving someone up against a piece of cast web and hitting them with your weapons. And nine Stinger-2s (don't forget to replace the Stinger-H) running you into a web is a lot scarier than just three.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 10:51 pm: Edit

In CL# 33 on page 28 is a description of the galactic disc: "Most of what's of any use is in the central 300 parsec." Across the top and bottom are 100 parsec thick wastelands, racked by ion storms and saturated with varying amounts of radiation. The radiation originates from the energy barrier.

Perhaps it is not penetrating the barrier that is so difficult but the combination of penetrating the barrier and making it through the 100 parsec think wasteland. A simple explanation on why the Tholians and Seltorians made it through is as species they are less affected by radiation; like the Vudar. Further their ships are better able to handle the stresses of the energy barrier and wastelands.

Seltorians: I see them as more aggressive and not waiting 100 years outside the Alpha Sector for the second wave; but that is my view. If they do there is no resurgence. I would also like to see a way that an Alpha sector version of the BCH and DN could be built.

The Alpha Sector races are going to figure out how to penetrate the energy barrier. This will open extra-galactic exploration above, below and out from the edge. Also could create opportunities for new scenarios and ship types/classes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Any new arrivals from M81 do not understand the nature of the energy barrier. See Tholia The First Years. The energy barrier around M81 is far more benign and the MWG barrier is difficult to scan. The Tholians Sphere barely made it thought due to this lack of understanding.

The 312th probably lost ships in the crossing but were lucky. The Seltorians got lucky too but only because they follow up on the 312th's luck.

In the next Captain's Log you will see that not everone is lucky.

However, in time and with study the barrier would be studied. I would like to think, but cannot confirm, that the Tholians contributed a lot to Operation Unity's success by sharing their experience and knowledge of the barrier (and no doubt they've been studying it for a long time, what with it being is common view and all) with the other races (without which Operation Unity might have been delayed?).

The time to decide that hasn't come yet but it is becoming evident that the Tholians do have the most experience with the galactic barrier.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 07:31 am: Edit

More experience than the Andromedans, or Iridani?

Hell, even the Bolosco, Loriyill and Souldra could be argued to have at least as much, if not more, experience with Barrier-crossing as the Tholians.


And I would still say that there is plenty of room in the Milky Way group for Seltorians to be placed, without just having them dive back into the Alpha Octant.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Ummm... Gary, I meant among the Alphas, silly. You know, the ones involved in Operation Unity, the subject of the post.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Well, ok then - I guess the Iridani were too busy Crusading against the Andromedan forces over in Omega to help out in Operation Unity...


Though I still think that there should be consideration given to putting Tribunal expeditons into one or more non-Alpha settings - I'd personally consider post-Unity the Cloud to be the best bet, though.

(Especially since while there, the Selts could learn who sent ships up to the LMC as part of Operation Unity...)