Archive through August 04, 2008
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Archive through August 04, 2008
When it comes to the Milky Way group, a significant 'wild card' for the Tholians and Seltorians would be the ongoing Andromedan invasions.
For example, if a fleeing Tholian force passed through a given globular cluster or satellite galaxy, the Andromedans might have moved in between the time the Tholians move on and a Tribunal force shows up.
Nest Ship, meet Dominator.
Indeed, the Tholians themselves could have been annihilated by Andromedan garrisons in such satellite galaxies - and the fleeting Seltorians may have either 'lost the scent' and been forced to explore other clusters or satellite galaxies, or ended up crunched in turn by the Andros.
Or, another possibility - that the Tholians were killed by Andromedans, but that the Andro presence was cleared out by some other action (be it a Souldra infestation, or Iridani Crusade, or Juggernaut or Death Probe attack, or some other, unknown alien force) and the Selts were left with a new pocket galaxy to set up shop in.
And with the likes of the Souldra, among others, causing trouble, maybe the only ships to be found from either empire have crews floating within, drained of all life...
In the CL33 article on Tholian biology I should have explained it this way; Tholians don't breath as much as they ventilate. What they need out of an atmosphere is temperature regulation (one of several ways they regulate body temp), trace gases (consummed), neutral gases to carry out waste gas, and pressure.
It's what I meant, but this is more clear as to it's function.
...so tholians could live on Mercury if they could put up a pressure dome?
When I originally proposed the idea that the Tholians lived in a Dyson sphere back in the 80's it was the diameter of Mercury's orbit for just that reason-the temperature would be about right. Since then it's shrunk and what's at it's center is no longer a star as we know it.
regards
Stacy
The tholian dyson sphere would only need to be the size of mercury's orbit if it were surrounding a yellow start like ours.
built around a small red star, it could be significantly smaller.
One of the big problems would eventually be ventig heat. You can't trap the continual output of a star or it will eventually melt your sphere.
If one had the mind, at the center could be a brown dwarf (or white dwarf for that matter) dwarf that the Tholians drop antimatter into for light and heat.
I'd suggest that the tholians probably left whatever they built the sphere around when they left their galaxy and found something like it here.
Back when SVC and I were discussing it back in the "day" he suggested that like Larry Niven's ringworld they could use magnetic grids in the sphere itself to cause the star to jet propelling it at sublight velocity. I was dubious but have you ever tried to divert Steve when he's enthusiastic? 
However when I initially proposed it they built it here using web to gather up a shell of debris. It was a very different creature than it is now. It was a very thin inner layer surrounded by a cloud of condensing debris through which there was a narrow passage. As it is now it's more impregnable than it was (although it was pretty DAMNED tough then).
The point about cooling is valid but also assumes they aren't using the full energy output of the star-which is one of the main reasons for a dyson sphere. I always assumed that it took a TREMENDOUS amount of energy to make web generators-since the only way I can see them working is if they're built around quantum black holes-Hawking singularities. This is still the only way I can see for web generators to work (and some Andromedan tech as well). Anything that messes with the fabric of space time in that manner needs a singularity to make it work.
But I digress...
regards
Stacy
I should have written SVC back in those days. Well, actually I did. I submitted an idea for a race that chased the Tholians from their old galaxy. I was informed that the Seltorians were already in the works.
Funny how things turned out twenty+ years later.
Loren
The notion that the Tholians had subjects looking for them (as well as any compound hull above a PC) came from Rev. Ron Wheeler. The 312th showing up late for the game came from Michael Woodcock (I think I may have gotten his name wrong). We got to the Seltorians (who were a bit different than what they became) from a proposed history of the Tholians I submitted which was scheduled at one time to be in Nexus.
But for every proposal I sent that SVC that he READ there are 9 filed away unread. It was a bad idea to send him stuff in batches
regards
Stacy
So, little did we know that we were both onto similar things and would be talking twenty plus years later.
For SO long I wanted to be involved in the SFU and I could have been. Sigh. Oh well, everything has its turn.
For every idea that I suggested that was accepted there were 20 that were rejected. And virtually EVERY tactics paper I ever submitted resulted in a rules change!(Notably the "Webbed Weasel"-I STILL think they were just being BAD SPORTS about that!)
regards
Stacy
Stacy, I don't remember that one.
Webbed Weasel? COuld you re-write it for my amusement?
Michael
Delighted. Basically as the rules were then web didn't block the effect of a wild weasel (I'm not altogether what the rules are these days I haven't checked them closely lately. That's step one. Then buried in the multitudinous errata they mentioned that scout pseudo-fighters (er fast patrol ships these days) could go wild like a Fed SWAC shuttle (I think THAT designation has changed too!). Well the Fed SWAC when it went wild would attract EVERY seeking weapon on the map essentially.
So I suggested that a Tholian Scout PF could go wild inside web enclosure and neutralize all seeking weapons on the board leave a web full of a LOT of seeking weapons and an untouched wild pf scout.
I turned it in as a Term Paper they changed the rule.
Poor sports! It wouldn't have happened if SVC and SPP weren't Klingons! Bad form all around!
Oh, well in retaliation I came up with the Tholian yo yo. A conventional wild weasel on a pre-programed course taking it in and out of globular web which would result in seeking weapons seeking it, revert lock on seek it again, revert lock on and so on until the weasel is destroyed, the seeking weapons exhausted or the Tholian player is strangled. That was in the first edition of the SFB Tactics Manual under Tholian tactics.
The Tholian tactic section was unique in that I believe it was the only race that offered advice on how to fight them! I was quite proud of my even handedness.
regards
Stacy
Stacy,
Under current rules (G10.63), web blocks the effect of either a wild SWAC or a wild PF scout. But it has no effect on a wild weasel. So said wild weasel would still attract seeking weapons launched at its "parent ship", even if it were separated from them by web.
Also, when a PF scout goes wild it only attracts seeking weapons targeted on its own flotilla or tender. It doesn't attract "everything" the way a wild SWAC does.
Finally, there are still some "wild games" you can play with PF scouts and web under the current rules. For example, your flotilla is moving toward the enemy, with the scout lagging behind the "shooters". The enemy launches seeking weaqpons at the flotilla and your scout goes wild to attract them. After the "shooter" PFs have passed the seeking weapons, now targeted on the PF scout behind them, one of your ships uses a web caster to put up web in front of the scout. This blocks its "wild" function and the seeking weapons revert to chasing the rest of the PFs. But they are now trying to chase the PFs down from behind while the PFs continue to move toward their target at (presumably) a high speed. This is especially effective against plasma.
P.S.
A Tholian web caster ship supporting a Federation CVA or SCS battle fleet and coordinating with a real SWAC, can cause non-trivial annoyance to an enemy seeking weapon fleet.
Alan
The point is that's where the rules were 20+ years ago and the term paper I submitted directly lead to the rule changes.
regards
Stacy
Stacy,
Understood. I was responding to your statement that
Quote:I'm not altogether what the rules are these days I haven't checked them closely lately.
in your 11:27 pm post. I wanted to inform you of the current state of the rules. But perhaps I was being presumptuous to do so. I have been accused by two different people on this board of being pedantic, and it's probably a fair accusation.
Alan
OK, thanks for the clarification, just wanted to make sure you understood that I wasn't making claim about the current rules-it was more about how the evolution of the rules would create new tactics and destroy them in the space of the gap between the issues of NEXUS!. And with SFB rules it's pretty hard NOT to be pedantic! Goddess knows I made more than blood vessel come close to breaking when I pointed out that in the LATEST errata in the CURRENT Nexus on page 23 in the 8 pt type you can't do that any more.
I got to listen to some IMPRESSIVE rants on that subject!
regards
Stacy
A couple things.
First, SFB is SVC's universe. What he decides is what is. It hangs together based on the face that there is, ultimately, only one mind deciding what is, and is not canon, or what will become canon.
Second, in regards pursuit of the Tholians, you have to take several items into account. [And I apologize if I seem pedantic about it (smile).]
The CIRCUMSTANCES are relatively unique. The Tholians had their whole galaxy sewn up. A logistics network was in place, however, that supported two navies (the regular Will forces and their auxiliaries). This meant a lot of duplication of battle stations and starbases, which had special sensors.
When the disaster happened, the Tholian Will bases were destroyed, and at least some of the Seltorian bases were destroyed. Given the inherent nature of the event, Seltorian base losses were very few. Once the Seltorian conquest was completed, they were able to review the long distance sensor logs of all their bases and run them through the computer systems and detect Tholian elements leaving the Galaxy.
Remember that the Seltorians were part of the Tholian military. Inherently they had a lot of access to a lot of "classified" data. Probably more than the Tholians knew because the Tholians did not think it possible for the Seltorians to turn on them. That means they had a very good count of exactly how many ships the Tholians had when the revolt began. A pretty good list of how many of them were destroyed follows. (Reasonable assessments of new construction could also be made with good accuracy because the Seltorians would have known what the Tholian Will's capabilities were down to a T.) No, they would not have been able to (probably, depends on how tightly things were sewn up) have an accurate count of every single civilian ship. They would probably have, however, a good count on just how many of them there were that might be able to fleet the galaxy in company with warships.
The Seltorians would be able to "do the math" on Tholian warships and figure out about how far they could get without any logistical support, and decide what to send in pursuit of each such force.
Allow a few years to review the data and assemble the pursuit forces, and away you go.
The Seltorians would know all there was to know about Tholian Biology (as Auxiliaries, they would have been involved in the resuce and medical interventions to treat Tholian casualties, even if they had to do it in special suits). So they would be aware of when life support and other systems on Tholian ships would begin to fail, although their estimates would not be precise (a 'fudge factor' would be necessary) because they could not know for sure what supplies the Tholians had, and what things the Tholians could canabalize to keep going).
They would have an excellent idea of how far any given fleeing Tholian formation could get.
And there is no way they would not have known where any Tholian Dyson Spheres were headed. (Just too big not to have been detected on the sensors.)
This does not mean that they tracked them to their final destinations, but it does mean that they were able to dispatch pursuit forces, and those pursuit forces basically just looked for the wreckage the Tholians left behind (ships that lost power, other dumped garbage) including any contacts they had with other races.
Third thing: If the Tholians were offering web tech to stop the Seltorians, imagine how mad the people they gave the web tech too would be when the Seltorians demonstrated web breaker technology? This would result in people given that bad deal offering the Seltorians supplies and other assistance to catch those . . .
SPP
I'd tell them about web breaker tech when I gave them the web. Web is STILL useful against everyone else.Full disclosure. It's a good deal anyway you cut it.
If it wasn't such a good deal why is it that no other race is allowed Tholian tech—ever—neither the Wyn or the Orion?
And I would NEVER accuse you of being pedantic!
Some things just don't need to be said!<EG>
regards
Stacy
SPP
One implication of what you just said is that the Tribunal came to the MWG in pursuit of the Sphere and not the 312th. This suggests they went directly there rather than through Hydran space.
However, GIVEN that...why did the 312th end up in Hydran Space FIRST rather directly to the Holdfast as presumably they have the same or better tracking ability as the Seltorians?
Unless what you're suggesting is the SPHERE showed up in Hydran Space first...
The mind boggles at the implications.
Hmmm
regards
Stacy
Stacy, not quite, while the base senors can detect the fleeing Tholians, it would be the ships's sensors to track between galaxies (no scouts) plus the 312th would have leaving fresher tracks than the sphere (assuming the sphere tracks are the same or lighter than the fleet).
Stewart
You're speaking of the 312th and not the Seltorians right?
regards
Stacy
I am in agreement with what SPP posted but the situation with the Holdfast sphere is unique to a few spheres that escaped early. There are factors that open a window that might allow a sphere to escape. The story I presented for the Holdfast sphere does not have it heading directly out of M81 to the MWG. Then there is matters of unique M81 geography. SVC has the map.
The Seltorians hit a lot of places all at once but not everywhere as they were focused on a number of primary and critical targets at first. Again, this was a matter of galactic geography.
In re Loren Knight's last post.
See Item #1 in my previous post. Loren Knight is proposing/has proposed for the Tholians quite a number of things that I pretty vehemently disagree with. The final arbitrator of what is, and is not accepted as canon is SVC, not myself.
This is true. As I have noted many times, nothing I say is canon and only data that is published is.
I've been tasked with writing a history for the Tholians and I am trying to make that history as interesting as possible. Different points of view will see different things as interesting or perhaps even possible. I do not deny my place on the totum, however, which is certainly well below SPP.
Everyone, please, always assume that when I speak of anything that is unpublished material, in regards to my work on PDT, that it is still in proposal mode. Some material has been approved but largely only to the extent of a nod to continue to work in that direction.