Archive through December 23, 2008
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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R07: THOLIAN PROPOSALS:
Tholian ECM Drone:
Archive through December 23, 2008
I want to give the Tholians an ECM drone, but they don't have drones, so, well, something with that effect. Perhaps built on a fighter chassis like the Hydran one? Perhaps built on a web-anchor chassis (but then, it couldn't move?). Thoughts.
A function of the snare?
UEWV-Unmanned Electronic Warfare Vehicle-basically a fusion between a shuttle and a probe chassis. About half the size of a shuttle and twice the size of a probe-energized from the snare generator.
regards
Stacy
Isn't this a EW drogue?
B^)
Maybe a web anchor CAN move...if it isn't used for anchoring web. It's an issue that never arose before because no one USED a web anchor except to anchor web...
regards
Stacy
SVC, How close to an ECM drone in gameplay does it need to be (speed limits, resource use, vulnerability to mines or enemy fire)? Back when I was protesting about the ECP I made some notes to myself about ECM from Web (use the generator to spray a thin film of web around the ship) and a sensor-degrading ESG mode. I've lost those notes but could easily work the concepts up into prototype rules for you. Edit: Though on reflection you probably have a hundred similar rules on file already.
I think we will enter a bad place if we give, in any way, EW capabilities to Web. I'd like to see it but it will become much bigger than just the current proposal. The engineering will be impossible to ignor, I think.
ECM-drone-like shuttles or fighters shouldn't be hard for other races to copy. I could see the Hydrans pulling it off with a totally hollowed out Stinger. But if the Tholians make these too then the Klingons will have them. They might deploy them because they'd have better endurance and could take more damage.
I like the idea of an ECM-Drogue that would have several small EW pallets with limit 'on' time. Say three ECM emmiters per ECM-Drogue pallet, and you tow one at a time. Of course, you can't send it out to cover other units so it will still be inferior to the ECM Drone. The other probelm is drogues don't come out until late General War.
How about an ECM probe? Launched up to a range of six, the recieving ship (other or self) uses a tractor beam to keep in on station at any speed. A couple impulse later it starts generating ECM. Due to the size it only generates 2 ECM for three turns, but it cannot be hit unless the shields are compromised (where it then takes the first internal hit to destroy it). If a ship holding an ECM probe is successfully tractored by an enemy unit the ECMP is lost. Only one ECMP can opperate per unit. If two are tractored they will conflict and both will burn up, destroying each other. Not sure if there should be an arming cost or a BPV cost or both or neither.
So give the Hydrans the ECM fighter and the Tholians the ECM Probe.
OK, since regular probes must be armed (1+1) so should an ECM Probe.
BPV cost? 1? That would put some limit on how many they could have. I wouldn't want to see all the Probes on Tholians ships being routinely used for this purpose. So you have a limit on the number you can replace or you can buy them as extra with CO points.
Suggestion:
1) A new function of a web-anchor: It would require some number of deck crew actions to switch out a module. When the Anchor has the ECM module it can't perform any web-anchor functions. It could be prepared in advance of the scenario at higher weapon status.
2) How to keep it with the ship: It is reeled out of the ship like a fishing line. The line is a thin strand of web that serves no function other than to hold the ship and anchor together. Nothing can be caught in it and it can't be hit by a Web Breaker(Its too thin). Broad area effects that disrupt web could effect it.
3) Damage: Same as normal web anchor.
4) Duration and effect: I could see it being the same as an ECP. But I am open. I could even see it being able to be reeled back into the ship.
5) Cost: The ECM module would have some cost in addition to the normal anchor.
6) Size: I am imaging the that the Web anchor has three parts. Body, power cell, web tech. The ECM module would replace the web tech component.
Thought came to me while thinking this subject over again. Rather than providing a custom ECM source for every technology base how about introducing a generic one that everyone (including Omega et al) can use, tuned to be somewhat inferior but still decent when compared to the current ECM systems.
For instance what if a cheaper generic EW-only shuttle was introduced? The basic model might be speed 6, 8 damage points, no phaser, no cargo, loans like a MRS - it has the MRS EW systems mounted on a cheaper chassis.
Or perhaps whatever that thing was in Refiner's Fire could be refined for a reliable ECM effect and carried as optional ammunition in the probe launcher.
Does it have to move? What about a web anchor variant that can't serve as a web anchor, but does produce EW for a ship over a specific range (5 hexes?). Sort of a poor-man's MRS.
I like the alternative James is proposing if it does need to be mobile and based on the Web Anchor.
Another possibility is a Spider-III based thingy (or maybe something smaller and more specialized) stripped of weapons and under remote control that produces EW. Limit non-carriers to carrying only one at a time (replacing Admins like the Fed F-7). Maybe carriers can have some limiting percentage. Lends EW to the ship controlling it. Booster packs can be used but not dropped(making it faster, but easier to kill). Drone and Plasma users wouldn't bother. Obviously, availability could be limited in a number of ways, including the fighter introduction rates for the Tholians.
I think ANdrew has something there. And its in the Canon already.
For the Tholians only? Something fusing that and web anchor tech makes it both impossible to copy and reasonably rare.
This would not be the topic to discuss a generic EW solution.
The Tholians have the best ECM generation there is already: just hide behind web. Personally, I don't think they need it. The bugs will be wanting something next. Tech slosh has to stop somewhere.
Jim: I agree, for whatever that is worth.
If there is EW toy tech, perhaps it comes with the Neos, as they see Seltorians using Klingon fighters and (presumably) Klingon ECM drones from Klingon fighters to protect their ships.
Some tech slosh is realistic. If something works well tactically then only pride or know-how could stand in the way of copying the technology. Our own history has shown us that technology is a see-saw. A new deadly weapon is invented and either both sides begin using it or one side counters it. Then comes the counter to the counter, and so on.
ECM drone are an obvious irritation to any commander that faces them.
Maybe the Tholians could counter rather than copy. Maybe with a web caster setting that casts a very small bit of web that hits just one target and holds it down. Not a hex of web but a variation of the web-fist. It's strength would be based on power and the size of the unit it hits. Say, for one point, it will hold a drone in place for 10 movement points, a fighter for 4 movement points, and a PF for one. It would have no effect on ships. Use the web-fist hit chart.
Then the Tholians wouldn't need an ECM thingie (at least not after Y180ish).
It would later prove useful against Andros too.
Should I move this to another thread?
Loren
I think you have something there.
I´d greatly prefer Thols to approach this from their own angle, rather than start becoming another droner..
(alternative concept for discussion)
Instead of a drone, how about a mine/T-bomb sized/functional device:
--One-half (1/2) a point of power is required to "warm up" the device, applied on the turn of deployment; CAN use a "rolling delay" from one turn to next;
--dropped out the shuttle hatch as a "NSM"(does not move, but can be tractor-ed/towed):
--provides ECM cover noise (up to 3 points) for the intended ship only so long as that ship remains in a certain range (say 0-3 hexes of the ECM-mine);
--"endurance" burns out in a given number of turns/impulses (say 4 turns? 6 turns?).
--CANNOT be "turned off"--it operates till it dies, then SDs.
--destroyed by ESG impact, ADD hit, any explosive drone/plasma hit, or X damage points (say 3 or 4?)
--VERY cheap to produce/operate.
(Optional)--say the ECM benefit is range* variable: three (3) ECM points are available at 0-1 hex range, two (2) ECM points available at r=2-4 hexes from "target", and only 1 ECM point at 5-9 hexes.
(* = range from "target" ship...)
It seams to me that the solution needs to be based on web tech. If it is based on a fighter/ t-bomb / shuttle then we are not really making a Tholian solution, we are making a generic solution.
Loren, Are you thinking your idea is a counter because it could make an ECM drone useless. Or are you coming up with a way to disrupt enemy formations. I see that it can do both. I am wondering what your intent is.
I've proposed two solutions for what the Tholians might come up with once they encounter then Klingons (and later the Feds) using ECM-Drones.
One is a way to counter it by adopting the same benefit. It was the ECM-Probe. Armed and launched at a friendly ship, the friendly ship kept the ECM probe on station by using its own tractor. The range is six like any probe and is 360°. Tholians tend to stay pretty well together so the function is pretty much a match for the ECM-Drone without it being a drone. Capturing the tech is pretty unlikely too and any race with ECM-Drones would probably not bother. It would be available shortly after ECM-Drones.
Lets call the web thing a Web-Swatter. It could break up enemy formations but at the sacrafice of using the web caster for a greater purpose. It's effect would be minor for that use but it would be very effective against drones, holding one back to give a ship time to slip away or turn a phaser into arc. And it would be very effective against ECM-Drones unless the ship they are protecting isn't moving (or is tac'ing). It wouldn't damage anything. I'd like to see it able to fire more than once in this mode, perhaps twice?
I'd rather see the Tholians in particular get a counter to increased ECM rather than a deviced to achieve parity.
Given the Tholians a web-related function increases ECCM instead of ECM.
Given that they're a historically limited race, and all three (four if you count Orions) of their traditional opponents now have ECM drones/plasma, I think it's both unique and a better balance anyway.
And it doesn't have to be complicated either.
Example:
Any ship with a functioning web generator or web caster may use it to gain ECCM instead of web or fist functions. This increase in ECCM can be combined with generated ECCM. Simply convert the power allocated to the system to produce ECCM instead of web. A generator or snare can produce 1 ECCM per box on the ship. A web caster can use up to 5 points of power, but only 1 web caster on the ship can use more than 1 point of power for this function on any turn.
The increase in ECCM lasts from the point initiated until the end of the turn (so anywhere from 1 to 32 impulses), but one device cannot be used more than once in any 8 impulse period (over two turns).
So a Tholian ship with 2 web generators or snare can gain 2 ECCM, and one with a web caster could gain up to 5 ECCM.
Now, everyone commence telling me what I did wrong, and why it's a bad idea...
Could the Tholians purchase ECM drones from the Feds and launch them (and only them) with Drogues?
Richard,
I can't say I like your idea very much. This capability seems too divorced from what web systems do. It's a combination lawn mower and ice cream maker, all in one!!!
Tos,
I have my doubts about your suggestion too. I don't want Tholians getting seeking weapons because the synergy between seeking weapons and web is just too strong (unlike the case with disruptors or photon torpedoes). And I don't see how the Tholians could be prevented from deploying explosive drones, once they had this basic technology. For that very reason, the Feds might not be willing to sell any drone technology to the Tholians, even if they did sell them photons.
Skip the drone then, how about an ECM Drogue? Something like a teathered MRS shuttle without the availability constraints. The new Tholian Web Teather allows it to be dragged around at a faster speed than most Drogues.
My favorite answer is the ECM Probe. One power to arm, range 6 direct fire, instantaneous effect, lasts 32 impulses. Think of it like a spitball that sticks to its target using web tech.
Here's an alternate idea for a web-based Tholian ECM (not ECCM) system. Unlike Richard's suggestion, this one seems, at least to me, to "feel" more like a web technology.
Any snare or web caster has an alternate firing mode that can create a free standing "interference field" of size, shape, and duration similar to a free standing web. Any enemy fire through (could include into-or-out-of, but I prefer just "through" since regular web doesn't block fire into-or-out-of) the interference field is penalized by ECM equal to the strength of the web/10. Interference fields have no effect on movement and do not block any fire.
Example: A web caster charged with 5 points of power creates a 2-hex interference field at range 17. Power is reduced by 1 due to range so 4 points yields 40 aggregate web points. For a 2-hex web, this would be strength-20 so enemy fire would suffer a 2 point ECM penalty. Note that maximum web strength under any circumstances is 35. So maximum ECM shift would be 3 (or 4 if the rule is written that fractions of .5 or more round up).
Question: Why would the Tholians use an interference field when a cast web would completely block fire? The cast web would also block Tholian disruptors and photons and (depending on placement) might reduce the damage from their phasers. In some cases they might choose to use an interference field instead. This would allow the enemy to shoot but they would have an ECM penalty. Instead of firing just phasers (which might have reduced damage) the Tholians would fire heavy weapons and phasers, with no penalty. Under some circumstances, this might be better over all for the Tholians.
BPV? Potentially pretty hefty, especially for the web casters. This BPV change isn't currently marked on the SSDs, which is a minor but workable problem. It's similar to the BPV change that plasma users have if they buy the sabot refit. If I want sabot torpedoes for my Condor, the cost isn't on the SSD. I have to look it up in the rule book and simply remember to add the cost in when I buy my ship.
I suggest that "basic" casters and snares not have this capability. They developed it sometime after the 312th arrived in this galaxy and from that point can refit caster or snare-equipped ships for the appropriate BPV cost.