Tholians have seeking weapons: suicide shuttles.
regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Stacy,
I think that's not the same as drone and plasma though. However, it cannot possibly be beyond Tholian capability to deploy drones if they wanted.

I've always thought a web-fist style solution would be cool. Instead of doing damage or disrupting movement, it just lights up the target it sticks to. All ships gain a number of ECCM when targeting that unit for a number of impulses. Call it Glow-Web.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Could it be as simple as removing the constraints on MRS shuttles? Or perhaps a slimmed down MRS shuttle with higher speed, EW lending and no other MRS capability.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Loren
I agree with you that a unique web based idea would be ideal. However I think we both have a sense it might open a HUGE can of worms.

However having said that: web performs a MASSIVE distortion of the fabric of space. That such a thing doesn't have some effect on fire control sensors is not possible. It may be that such an effect can be factored out...but that would simply be incidental effects from web. What if they did something to make it worse intentionally?

What if adding a certain amount of energy to a puddle of web cast by a snare created an AREA OF EFFECT of ECM/ECCM (depending on "kind" of energy applied-say a 5-10 hex radius (again depending on amount of energy added)? Tholian sensors can counter it others can't?

Just brainstorming...

regards
Stacy

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Loren,

I have to disagree about Tholians being able to deploy deploy drones "if they wanted." Drones would be so powerful for the Tholians (at least in some circumstances) that the only plausible reason why they don't have them is because they can't build them.

You want a technobabble reason? How about this? Even for empires with approximately the same overall technological capabilities, each will be better at some things and worse at others. Throughout most of SFU history, for example, the KLingons have trouble building phaser-1s. So they deploy them only in very limited numbers on a few select hulls until late in the General War. And the Klingons never do figure out how to make gatling phasers work, even with captured samples to try to copy. Hypothetical non-canon reason that Tholians can't make drones: they have a great deal of trouble making small warp engines. They can make larger engines with no problems but peculiarities in their production methods mean they can't miniaturize them very well. That's also part of the reason their fighters are the worst in Alpha. They can produce "low performance" engines for shuttlecraft but don't succeed in producing a small high performance warp engine until the Spider-V, which doesn't appear until fighters are on the way out anyway.

If you don't like that answer, we could come up with another one. But how do you propose to explain that the Tholians don't have drones if they really could make them? Web plus seeking weapons is a really strong combination and saying the Tholians just didn't want to produce drones doesn't seem to be satisfactory.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Point of order. There is already one "ECM-like" effect that webs do affect. The effects of wild SWACs and wild PF-Scouts don't extend through web.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Alan, one of the reasons given why Klingons have trouble with Ph-1's is the lack of certain required materials in their Empire. They eventually overcome this, and the reasons then become more ecconomic.

I reject the idea that Tholians cannot miniaturize things. Their use of space missles was very brief and they never encountered warp drones in their galaxy, the concept is simple enough. The reason Tholians DON'T use drones is simeple. It isn't practical. Their ships designs do not accomodate them well enough. Yes, they probably could design NEW ships to make room for them but currently, if they were to convert ships to deploy drone racks those racks would have no reloads like PFs. Just look at the PC/DD deck plans (CL33) and you'll see that there is no room for storage (let alone moving them around their funky corradores). Plus, drones are dangerous to store and the whole mess doesn't fit the Tholian psyche; handling them, storing them, changing tactical paradigms, are all very distasteful things to the Tholians. Tholians don't care much for change and they conquered an entire galaxy without drones. Not only that, biologics invented them. Yes, biologics invented the disruptor and photon, but those weapons we vital to replace lost weapons, and they don't require special handling, and it may be hypocritical, but the way of the Tholian is complex. For a while, I'm sure they would have preferred to have their Particle Canons back.

So I reject the idea that Tholians are incapable of developing drones. They just really don't want to, and for a Tholian, that's an attitude it will take to the dust.

DISCLAIMER:
Now, I have to clarify, this is NOT official ADB gospel. While I know a thing or two about Tholians, what I've said here is not as the authority (which only SVC is), but as a player.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 05:22 pm: Edit

OK
Web Snares: Only works on snares
1 Extra point of energy added for each hex radius of effect (Up to 10) [Can have smaller Maximum Radius if play balance dictates. I think the energy cost is self limitation]
1 Extra point of energy added for each point of ECM or ECCM (Cannot do both simultaneously cancel each other out).

• Effect Fades when web does
• ECM is like a background static
• ECCM is like a bright light works on the same principle as regular web voiding a cloak

Tholian sensors are adjusted to counter the ECM effects

NAME: WEB FOG

regards
Stacy

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 05:46 pm: Edit

Loren,

Well, as another player I have to disagree with your argument. I'm not much worried about M-81, but about the Tholian situation in this galaxy. And in this galaxy the Tholians are pretty much constantly on the verge of extinction. As desperation measures, they started combining PC hulls to make larger ships, and modified PC hulls (which were phasers-only) to handle weapons that didn't even exist in their home galaxy. Given that, I'm having trouble seeing why they couldn't modify ships to handle drones. And except for the previously mentioned Spider-V, Tholian fighters have easily the least firepower of any empire in Alpha. In my opinion, drones are easily the best fighter weapon in existence, except for the gatling phaser. If the Tholians built drone-armed fighters it would vastly improve their fighter forces at a time when they need all the help they can get.

And drones move through web like non-Tholian ships do. So a medium speed drone could move through a web of strength-20 or less, though it would be delayed, of course. This allows an extremely cost effective web defense ship based on a freighter. Similar to an auxiliary cruiser but optimized for defending bases, it has 1 web generator and a bunch of drone racks. The outer ring of the wedding cake is at full strength so enemy ships are trapped there. the middle ring is kept at "medium strength" so Tholian drones can penetrate it to hit ships on the outer ring. The enemy seeking weapons could also penetrate that middle ring, except that they can't escape from the strong outer ring. The Tholians can't use disruptors or photons for wedding cake defense unless they move into a position in which the enemy could also shoot at them. But these drone-freighter auxiliaries would greatly increase the defensive firepower without exposing the (weakly shielded) ships to enemy fire, in the process freeing up more "real warships" for deep space operations. And if the enemy slows down enough to launch a wild weasel, that gives the base's phaser-4s a lot more turns to play.

I think William of Ockham is on my side on this one. That the Tholians can't construct drones seems the most parsimonious explanation.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 05:56 pm: Edit

A drone that sits in web for 20 impulses waiting to be shot doesn't sound very effective to me. These things will be tying up control channels for a long time while doing nothing useful.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Jim,

You might be surprised how effective it can be. The middle ring doesn't have to be strength-20. If it were strength-17 the drones would reach the target in one turn, giving only one turn's worth of defensive fire. ADDs would be good for the defenders until they ran out of ammo. Note if the Tholians were a drone-using race they would have control channels equal to their sensor rating like other seeking weapon races. The base can use a special sensor for additional drone control capability. Some of the drones may have ATG. The attacker needs to be able to cover every side of the outer ring to keep Tholian ships from moving out to reinforce it. If the targeted ship is in the web "north" of the base, any attacking ships covering the "south" web hexes can't help defend it. So it's one or two ships trying to stop the drones from several drone-freighter auxiliaries. (Being freighter based, they will have cargo and lots of spare drones.) Also, if the defender has used all his available weapons/tractors/etc., the Tholians send a scatter pack through the web, to open in the empty ring of hexes between the middle and outer web rings. Note that the scatter pack, being a Tholian shuttle, moves through the web with no penalty. Finally, defending against the concentrated drone attack, even if successful, uses a lot of power. That slows the attacking ship down and, again, allows more turns for the phaser-4s on the base to have fun. Lots more options for the Tholians than for the attacker.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 06:38 pm: Edit

I forgot to mention that if the Tholians have drone technology some of their captor mines are presumably drone captors rather than phaser captors. These add to the total drone throw weight and can be set in the empty ring between the middle and outer web rings. With command control rather than automatic, they won't be detected until they launch and with proper timing will hit the ships trapped on the outer ring the impulse after launch.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 06:42 pm: Edit

1:
Has anybody considered that the tholians, due to the web and web caster, are the one race that doesn't need an EW widget?

2:
Cast ECM Web. Works just like normal cast web, but it works to make shooting difficult instead of sticking onto stuff.

* Can't be shot into a hex adjacent to Web, cast web or ECM web. Cast and laid web cannot be cast/laid within a hex of ECM Web either.

* Does not stack with additional hexes of itself, ECM drones, EC plasmas or other ECM widgets like them. So 5 layers of ECM web still only produces 3 ECM.

* tholian web-pass technology enables ships to shoot through ECM webs without penalty.

* For opposing tholians, the "different frequencies" rule applies to ECM web: You can shoot through yours without effect but not theirs.

* This option is available to web casters and snares.

* Ships are affected by ECM Web if they are in an ECM web hex or their fire passes through or into an ECM web hex. Seeking weapons are affected by ECM web if their LOS to their controlling ship passes through into or out of a an ECM web hex.

* The qualify as ECM Web, the web must be cast with enough energy to produce a web with at least 5 strength points per hex. Can be more, can't be less.

* ECM web cannot be laid. It must be cast.

* ECM Web does not interfere with movement, ESGs or reduce the strength of explosions.

* Like cast web, ECM web lasts 16 imulses then goes away.

* Like Cast web, ECM web must wait 4 impulses after being cast before its effect kicks in.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 06:49 pm: Edit

John,

That's pretty similar to my post from 3:20 pm today, though differing in some details. Your suggestion, if I understand it correctly, always gives 3 ECM assuming the web meets the minimum power requirements. In my idea the ECM would vary more. One thing neither of us addressed is whether Selt web breakers would affect this.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 06:52 pm: Edit

On reflection, I think the Seltorian web breakers should have the ability to affect this. After all, ECM drones or plasma can be shot down.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 07:45 pm: Edit

John,

I forgot to address your point 1:

I'm not convinced the Tholians do need a special EW gadget. By thye time you get to the late General War (post 312th Battle Squadron arrival) they are already very strong at the tactical level. But SVC apparently wants them to have one so we're trying to come up with ideas for how to make it work.

Not much consensus on that yet...

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Three Choices:
1.A Drone-and all the problems it entails. If it's a Fed designed drone it wouldn't pass through web.

2.Shuttle Based option. No one seems to like this.

3.Web Based Option-no consensus everyone prefers THEIR variation.

OVERALL; Given the topic title SVC seems to prefer the drone option. Fed built drones trumps all anti-drone arguments. Fed drones won't pass through web.

regards
Stacy

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Stacy,

That's not correct! They do pass through web under exactly the same circumstances as non-Tholian ships, which I have discussed in several previous posts. You can't just "pretend" they don't.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Alan,

I seem to have expanded on your idea independently. I chose not to read the archives.

Variable results is open to abuse or allegations of unfair advantage if it can go above 3 ECM.

Standardizing the output makes the rule simpler, therefore inflicing less additional complexity on the game.

If not a web-based option, then the alternative is to field shuttle-based option under a common ruleset with the Hydrans. Again the driving force behind that would be minimizing additional complexity to the game.

Drones are a worst-case option. It;'s a bad tech slosh and adding drone racks to a hundred SSDs is mind-numbing work on the one hand and changes how they play on the other.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Alan
When I say they don't pass through web I mean in the manner that Tholian ships do - so please don't interpret my brevity of expression as "pretending" anything. It's the possibility that Tholian drones WOULD move freely that upset the majority of the NO THOLIAN DRONE crew. While there would still be some military utility to a drone that could pass through a web over the course of a turn it is much less in impact than one that would move freely.
regards
Stacy

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:42 pm: Edit

How about the Tholians getting late-war ECP tech from the Gorns? Each Gorn ship can push one ECP out the shuttle bay, why not lend that tech to their allies? An ECP would still get stuck in a web, but that's an acceptable price to pay.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:53 pm: Edit

If Tholians had ECM Cast Web... would it "solidify" instant if it had anchor points?

Eh, either way I don't much like the ECM web options. Generally I'd rather use the web as intended. That strikes me as much more useful than a few points of ECM.

I'm in the "Fed ECM Drone" camp myself. Though rather than create ECM Drone Support variants for their hulls, maybe just have a fleet wide optional refit to do something like replace one shuttle with one of those Jump Racks loaded with ECM drones only.

Seems that would be the simplest and result in the least amount of new SSDs, or complex rules.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Jonathan
I'd argue that the EW effects start immediately before the web solidifies but fades when it dissolves. Overall it would be more limited because it would be a "cloud of ECM" and would not move.

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 09:14 pm: Edit

Drones are tech level 10 (or less) while Tholians are tech level 11 and 13 in some ways.

Their engineering capabilities are generally beyond most Empires and the could have copied drones long beofre the general war. They also have spend the majority of their time NOT facing extinction. The only time they really face anything beyond harrassment is the The Great Klingon-Tholian war Y92-Y102, and operation Nutcracker. Drones were not much of a threat the first war and they had allied help in the second war. In the mean time, the Tholians managed quite well without any need for drones (although they may have had the Kzintis try some interesting tactics). X-ships can soo after Nutcracker.

Tholians built bigger ships from smaller ones because they had to and those were purely Tholians designs from Tholian materials. I can't see how building multihull ships has any bearing on their decision to employ drones or not.

It is completely illogical for the Tholians to be incapable of developing drones, IF THEY WANTED. It is clearly logical why they wouldn't want to. They aren't practical and they aren't that desparate. The only time they MIGHT have been that desparate is Operation Nutcracker and there certainly wasn't time to begin a developement program and switch over to a new ship design and operation paradigm.

To put it mildly, the Tholians would never want to employ a weapon so crude as a drone. And the fact that the biologics use them just proves that they are lesser beings. If the Tholians really wanted to employ drones, they would have made a deal with the Kzinti or the Feds. They wouldn't have to make them on their own. The Orions would have loved, LOVED I TELL YOU, to make a trade deal with the Tholians. Drone tech is SO readilly available that the only explaination is that the Tholians don't want them.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Off topic but where does all this "Tech level 10" and such come from?

On topic: If not the drone I can't see much else that would really work for Tholian ECM. Generally speaking I'd see regular web blocking shots completely better than ECM web. Most shuttle ideas are kinda, odd. They look pretty clunky and have even more unique rules to them. As if the Tholians needed another rule set that you only use for the Tholians. Hard enough to get people tp play against the Tholians right now for me because no one wnts to have to learn web rules.

But I like the be solution oriented. I think if anything else perhaps the ECM Probe idea could work for them. Though I think it'd work better if the probe (Small and not armored/juking like a drone) only took one or two damage points. Maybe it benefits from its own generated ECM to make it at least a little harder to kill having so few damage points.