Tech levels are part of the background and can be found in GURPS Prime Directive, the role playing game of the Star Fleet Universe.

We've probably gone too far off topic discussing the hows and whys of drones and Tholians, though.

I made the proposal for an ECM Probe a while ago but no one really discussed it, but then John Trauger just made a new thread for something very similar (mine was held by tractor, his rides the targets warp field).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Loren and Stacy,

I'm afraid we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on this. If it were only a matter of tech levels, why did the Klingons never figure out how to make gatling phasers? Why did the Federation never figure out how to make cloaking devices? Why did the Kzinti never figure out how to make SWAC shuttles? The game is full of examples of one race having some very useful technology that another race of equal or higher tech level never developes.

And I still don't buy the notion that the Tholians wouldn't want drones. In battles in which web is a major factor (pretty much limited to defensive action until the 312th shows up) drones are more effective for the Tholians than they are for any other race (even if the drones don't have Tholian web pass capabilities) because the web controls the range and timing of the fight better than the Feds, Kzinti, or Klingons can hope to do.

As I say, let's agree to disagree.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Alan
You make the mistake of assuming that because I have stated a position that I hold it. I am merely outlining the position that others hold to focus the discussion.

So...lets wait until we disagree before we agree to

Myself as a Tholian player I would be DELIGHTED to have the option of using scatter-packs in a web siege

I doubt Adm. Kumerian would be so pleased.

But in comparison with other drone using races their utility would be limited. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 12:35 am: Edit

Drones are one thing, gatling and cloaks are a whole other level of difficulty. There's not really a good comparison there, I think.

Is there some reason the Lyrans or Hydrans can't develope drones? How useful would drones be to Hydran? VERY.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 12:47 am: Edit

Stacy, I do have something that defines what web is for PDT but I can't say here (I can't remember if it was approved or not but it's not in print so there's that). I'm not sure it would cause electronic interferance. There might be ways, however.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:02 am: Edit

Loren
Whatever web is, it's NOT magnetic as it was originally defined. And it doesn't have to be electronic as we define it for interference it has to function on the quantum level and at that point it can interfere with subspace sensors in any number of plausible ways.
regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:30 am: Edit

What I have is crazy simple. It was a OMG moment when it hit me a few years back. And no, not magnetic.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:49 am: Edit

The fact that it voids cloaks tells a bit about it.
regards
Stacy

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 12:18 pm: Edit

John,

If you want to minimize additional complexity, Tos' idea from his 3:12 pm post yesterday has something to recommend it. Basically, he proposes that the Tholians' web technology enables them (and only them) to develop an improved "web tether" that allows drogues to be used at a much higher speed than currently allowed.

There are still issues to be resolved. Does this improved web tether allow high speed use of all drogues, or only an "ECM drogue"? Is this ECM drogue a standard sensor drogue or is it ECM-only? (If the former, the Tholians would have the disadvantage of only getting 2 ECM (and having to spend power for it) while an ECM drone provides 3 ECM. But they would have an advantage in flexibility, in that the sensor drogue could also provide ECCM if the Tholians chose. ECM drones (and plasma, of course) cannot provide ECCM so they would be more powerful (3 points versus 2) but less flexible.

In any case I think Tos' suggestion is worth discussing.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Alan,

That opens up a huge can of worms because it allows the tholians to cart around a variety of drogues. I believe even tholians have access to type-H drones.

And there's your answer, if true.

An H-drone drogue with H-drones that have an ECM warhead. Wasteful, yes. Vulnerable? yes.

But it works.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:21 pm: Edit

I have to agree that I do not believe the Tholians need any type of ECM drone/fighter/web anchor.

The web provides the protection they need. Once a Tholian base is established it is almost impossible to remove without committing some serious forces to the battle.

If the Tholians are able to be more effective what is going to stop them from taking over the Alpha sector?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Its a pity Type-H drones are prohibited from installing an ECM warhead, that might have actually worked.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Tholians have access to Type-H drones??? That's news to me. Unless you have a specific source for that, I suspect you're mistaken.

I'm not sure a web tether does open up the can of worms you think it does. I specifically mentioned the possibility in my previous post that such a tether might be usable only with an ECM drogue. Add technobabble rule justification as appropriate.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Ken,

What prevents the Tholians from taking over all of Alpha is that they are a small remnant that lacks the strategic resources to field large forces. But other than that, I am largely in agreement with you. I don't really think the Tholians need their own special EW toy but am posting with the idea that, if they get one, what should it be?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Alan,

IIRC (and I may not), all races have access to the drone drogues that shoot type-H drones. I forge the name.

My source would be R10 or wherever the drogue rules are.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 02:42 pm: Edit

I believe drogue rules are in J2, though I also don't recall for sure. I'll check when I get home but that does sound wrong to me.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 03:08 pm: Edit

I actually like the Web based tether idea for drogues.
And to prevent the speed 32 WW, the rules already state that the WW drogue ceases to function at speeds above 12.
Drogues are also based on a standard shuttle that gets death dragged at speed 13+.
So an High Speed ECM Drogue is a special Tholian built drogue.
It could be based on a Advanced Shuttle frame that can go speed 16.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 05:18 pm: Edit

I'm with Ken and Alan, I think the Tholians need no EW tricks (Hydrans alike from my POV). But it is fun talking about alternatives.
If Tholians are to get something, then by all means, the Hydrans must as well. But this is all cookie cutterism. I don't like that.
The Tholians already have an edge in their special tech, as do the Hydrans.
The game does not need to be fixed if it is not broken.
My 0.02

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 08:05 pm: Edit

This is not a fix any more than drogues or type-H drones area fix. OR a new ship class.

However, I must agree that I've not had issue with Tholians lacking an EW thingie.


Some things are cookiecutter, while some things are obvious devices. The Tholians never had scout sensors until the Holdfast (already established in the rules), but the need for them was obvious. I don't think it was cookie cutter to give them tactical scout sensors. Alternatively, giving the Tholians drones, or maulers would certainly be cookie cutterism.

Radar used to be an allied device. It was soon copied by the Axis. The USA and Russia went back and forth with various submarine technologies, like sonar and extremely powerful passive listening systems.

I think the business of electronic interferance is a general field that all races are well versed in. Right now, the US is deploying UAV's. It really isn't beyond any first world nation to develop their own.

An autonomous ECM device isn't really beyond anyones capability either. IMHO.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 08:44 pm: Edit

I don't think this is necessary. But if it must be it ought to be a unique web based solution to avoid tech slosh.
regards
Stacy

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Just a comment about:

>> What prevents the Tholians from taking over all of Alpha is that they are a small remnant that lacks the strategic resources to field large forces.


You do not need a lot of strategic resources to expand slowly, say over 100-200 years. If I can expand 1 F&E hex every 50 years that is a lot of territory and more resources.

There has to be other reasons besides resources and to my way of thinking giving the Tholian's more offense is asking them to take over the Alpha sector.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Actually the main thing was they didn't want to draw attention to themselves.
regards
Stacy

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 09:53 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

You do not need a lot of strategic resources to expand slowly, say over 100-200 years. If I can expand 1 F&E hex every 50 years that is a lot of territory and more resources.

---

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:06 pm: Edit

John,

I looked through both G34 (drogues) and FD21 (Type-H drones) and couldn't find anything to support the notion that the Tholians can field Heavy Weapons Drogues. I may have missed something, or the information may be elsewhere. But unless you can provide a specific citation I have to say I believe you are wrong about this.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 10:08 pm: Edit

ll, the background has the Tholians arriving when? And the background runs all the way to Y205?

So in that time, they
1) Punched through the wall at the edge and took major damage
2) Had to conquer 3 Klink planets (with EY tech not too hard).
3) Reawaken most of the poplulation. and restart their industry.
4) COnvert all the stuff cannibalized to make the "drag the sphere drive" work back to whatever it came from.
5) Defeat the Klink response to #2 above.
== also steal disruptor tech. Plus where did they get fighter tech?
6) Punch the feds hard enough to keep them at a distance (with varied successes over the years)
7) Slap the Roms when they got perky.
8) Deal with the early GW. And survive with NO contact with any other "friendlies" until the Orion enclave is returned to the Feds.
9) Deal with the Selts.
10) deal with operation nut cracker
11) Deal with the Andros
12) Partcipate in opunity.

So MAAYBE someday they might rule, but recently they have had their hands full...

All of the above while dealing with occasional border incursions by the Feds, ROms, Klinks, Orions, Monsters and whatever.

And they start off with little at the beginning, and their inital production capacity is small. While the big kids can afford to trade the occasional cruiser for a minor victory, the Tholians don't have "deep enough pockets" to play at that level