JRC:

A non RTN rapid escape mechanism.
Interesting...very interesting.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 10:41 pm: Edit

MJC,

The various background sections suggests that Andro ships were could move 4x faster than Galatic ships (in C2 warp 15) using the RTN but were slower off the RTN. By Y201 the Andro invasion's was back was broken. The remaining Andros became renegades and a major nuisance.

I just looking for a way that the Andro can keep a smaller RTN network hidden, as much as possible, but be able to exit and enter it with little chance of detection. The original RTN was all linked together. Once the galactic forces found how to trace it the RTN unraveled.

If sub-space displacement is allowed then the RTN can be broken up. Sub-space displacement could be used to move to a different segment. I don't think the beacon siginal were tracked just the traces of RTN movement. So only a small segment would be vulnerable. Andro ships move off the RTN do their raids and then disengage.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 01:38 pm: Edit

The simplest solution is that scattered nodes of the RTN survived. Space is large, it's possible.

Environments that hinder effective scanning or assault would be prime possibilities because the Galactics would be looking to hack the RTN apart, not carefully dismantle it. Careful and methodical detection attempts would by necessity wait until after OpU and might fall apart from lack of funding once the pressure was off.

Regional RTNs might therefore survive. The andros would and should never be able to roam the entirety of Known Space via RTN, but a few small regional RTNs might survive detection, say within a F&E hex or at most two adjoining hexes.

Dust clouds and heavy asteroid fields would be prime locations for undetected RTN nodes. Think "Blackfoot Pass" for a second. The navigable areas of the pass are all considered asteroid hexes. The "walls" of the Pass are imepentrably dense conectrations of asteroids.

It stands to reason that the areas around the pass itself might contain pockets of less-dense asteroids. If the Andros found such a pocket within dis-dev range of the Pass, they could establish a RTN node there and it would be all but undetectable, even if a race ran a scout through the Pass itself. Even before the RTN diruption started, the asteroid fields around Blackfoot would be a prime location for the Andros as a RTN transit point to/from Klingon, Fed and Kzinti territory.

Unless the Pass showed tons of Andro activity, nobody would bother with the slow-going and detailed checking necessary to scan and clear the Pass. Result: the vast asteroid fields at the Fed/Klingon/Kzinti border could be home to some andros and RTN remenants.

Nebulae and highly sunspot-active stars would be other good potential choices for nodes that might survive the andro war.

The Andros might even risk deploying nodes to radiation and heat zones, despite their effects on PA panels.

To that end, the Andros might have developed a dis-dev-launched Probe round to look a little way into territory that would otherwise be impassable.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Hmm, no one got my joke. Ah well, probably better that way.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 06:03 pm: Edit

John, and anyone else that would like to goin in I will answer over in: Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: The Proposals Board: New Ships: New Andro Units

This discussion has kind of moved off this topic.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Just to be specific, CL11 pg 22.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 07:49 pm: Edit

MJC,

I don't have CL11. What on page 22?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 08:47 pm: Edit

The reference that a new idea for the probe would be "worthwhile".

It'll make sense if you look back into the archive at my previous post, before the one that threw you.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Resurrecting this thread...

A probe is there to provide information. 20 points of it, normally. So I'd have thought that the most blindingly obvious extension for that is that it should be able to provide ECCM. Given the growing plethora of ECM generating machinery out there, I can't believe it beyond the wit of man or Klingon to get some value out of the most useless box on the SSD.

So:

ECCM Probe Refit: Y178+. Costs 2 BPV per probe launcher.

An probe armed for information (1+1) can be launched at any hex (360 arc) within 6 hexes. It provides 4 Lent ECCM to the launching ship against any target or targets which is/are in that hex at the time of firing for the next 8 impulses, whether or not it/they stay(s) in that hex.

Used for this, it doesn't gain information or ID drones. Other rules as for normal info probes.

Notes:

1) 6 hexes may be a bit short, but that's standard probe range. Please justify more.
2) Anything that works against superstacks is good.
3) Won't pass though web or ESG, for better or worse. Good for Tholians in open space where they need the help, but not when they're behind web and don't.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Jim,

I whole heartedly agree. And I think the range is fine at six. Just give the effect some range.

The Scanner probe provides 3 ECCM to everything in the target hex for the launching ship. In addition, it provides 1 ECCM to the six surounding hexes. I suggest additional charging energy of at least one point on the second turn of probe arming. ECCM is provided before fire on the impulse following launch.

Give bases a general rule that their probes are heavy probes and can reach twice as far.


It will still be useful to Tholians behind web because it is often a tactic to stick a ship in an enemy web under ECM cover to take out supporting ships inside. The probe would be in range every time.

Probe Drones are not eligible for this capabiity.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 06:52 pm: Edit

How about fire it at a range up to 6, effect is good vs all targets within range 6 of the target hex...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Applying ECCM to a hex is even beyond a Scout ships capabilities. Going beyond that is pretty heavy duty.

I think that I may have gone too far in the above post and the ECCM probe just be against one target. The key point is, however, that its effect has to be awarded the following impulse (or there would be no practical effet in the SoP.)

Another thing that bothers me is that this is really an offensive device. An ECM drone is always something that is accepted by the target so there is no issue with that.

But what happens if you launch an ECCM probe at an enemy covered by 10 ECM? How will the probe even find the target that doesn't want to be found? If it applies ECCM to everything in a hex will it be the end of the Romulans under cloak? Will it now expose mines?

As such, I think the ECCM probe should be launched at a target using the same 'to hit' roll as an Armed Probe. If it hits it then provides 3 ECCM for the following impulse. This alerts the target of course, that your Alpha strike is coming next impulse (or it's a trick?), which is why there would be no cost. All races get it from EY on. Arming is 1+2.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 03:30 pm: Edit

It seeems that you should be able to extend the range of the probe over time. Maybe it would require more energy.

I think in a game like Fog you would see more probes used if the range was longer.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 03:54 pm: Edit

I agree. I too would like to see a general extension of range over time. I'm surprised that there isn't an X-probe. I should have mentioned this during X1R production.

By James Hallmark (Jhallmark) on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 10:30 pm: Edit

Jim & Loren,

I agree with the idea of a probe providing ECCM. The technobable could go like this: The probe is normally set to collect a broad range of information and relay this to the ship. However it is possible to set a probe to focus on particular data such as the location and trajectory of an object (such as a ship). In game terms this is represented by providing an additional 2(up to 4?) ECCM to the ship on the target. This type of data is more time sensitive and requires a more active and intense effort by the probe. For this reason additional arming energy is required for the probe to perform this function. Also this results in the probe burning out quickly. For this reason the added ECCM is only provided for 1(up to 4?) impulses.

I am trying to keep this thing fairly week but still occasionally useful. The ways I see to keep it week are keeping the duration(1 imp), range(6), number of targets(1), and/or amount of ECCM provided(2) small.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 11:50 pm: Edit

How about . . . if the probe is to be used as an ECM drone while keeping its limitations in place, rather than providing ECM to the owning ship for all opposing units, how about ECM versus a specific unit (powerful against duel scenarios, significantly less against fleet units).
It's not OEM, but ECM versus another unit.
Example: You a lone ship vs a D7, D5, E4. Your probe is launched in defensive mode against the D5 under ECM mode. While the D5 has a 2 shift against you, the D7 and E4 do not.
This doesn't take away the power of the ECM drone and keeps the limitations of the probe drone. This would allow any race (including Hydran and Tholian) to utilize some kind of use of the Probe during combat, and yet not take away the advantages of drone or plasma races.
I think this is a good compromise.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:40 am: Edit

I like ECCM from probes. To avoid rules weight I'd have a single impulse effect (it's not often you really need more anyway). I'd also include a 'may only counter lent EW' caveat so the ECCM probe can counter a ECM drone or MRS but not flashcube a cloaked ship or replace the need to self generate ECCM if fighting an opponent without external ECM.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 02:00 am: Edit

I prefer the ECCM probe idea too. It doesn't seem to fit that the Probe would be able to output jamming. How about this?

ECCM Probe. (some active scanning but mainly close proximity and extensive passive systems let the launching ship see more clear what is static interference and what is the real ship).

Arm: 1+2

Launch at target requires lock-on (so no flash cubing a cloaked ship). To hit is a 1-6. EW effects apply. Range is the same as regular probes (I.e., six hexes, 360°).

Effect: Provides 3 ECCM against a target unit for the launching ship on the following impulse (1 impulse only).

Ships do not come equipped with ECCM Probes, but may be bought as extra probes at the same cost with commanders options. (Fed get no advantage this way and it doesn't change any scenarios.)

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:26 am: Edit

Why an extra arming cost and not having them as standard equipment?

They're PROBES. They're used for better readings on whatever they're used on within 6 hexes. The 3 ECCM should be a standard function.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:27 am: Edit

Extra arming because that function is beyond what they normally do.

Not standard equipement because 1) ECCM is not what they normally do. 2) Fleet wants ship Captain's to use them for gathering info, not saving them for combat. 3) Feds would get an advantage having 10 probes while other races get only five. 4)I'd rather not see everyone always having five or more ECCM Probes available.

The arming and cost will self regulate the ECCM probe to something that is not an every attack pass standard tactic. I'd rather not see this change everything.

The ECCM Probe will benefit Crunch EMpires better that others. The Feds are a crunch empire and the standard cruiser could have fifteen ECCM Probes if ECCM is a standard function of the probe. No way. That will break the game, IMO.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:40 am: Edit

If the ECCM lasts only 1 impulse, paying a total of 3 power AND extra bpv for each probe isn't much good: it's very short range, you might miss and it shows your hand. I'd just pay for the refit and have it last for 8 impulses on the one target.

I'm not sure where the arming energy would usefully go. If there were increased energy, I'd prefer to see it extending the range.

Not sure about the 1-6 to hit either. You don't need to roll for a normal info probe, so why for this?

I'm all in favour of making it unremarkable so that it doesn't change the game radically, but it has to be worth using.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Jim, could be a bluff too.

I don't think we want to turn this into a wonder weapon. Because the info probe isn't an offensive weapon. The Armed Probe requires a to hit and at range six the to-hit is pretty bad. I'm saying an auto hit is normal unless there is mitigating circumstances. I'm saying the ECCM probe needs to virtually hit its target like a weapon.

Worth doing? I think something that could make the difference of winnign and losing is still worth doing. If it doesn't make the difference the cost was not that great.

It has always been a fact that ECM is more efficient as preventing damage than shield reinforcement. ECM can make a torpedo miss. Therefore, ECCM can be just as efficient at doing damage. The two energy on the turn of firing (BTW, I think it should be able to be held or use rolling delay) could mean you narrow salvo of disruptors hits instead of misses. Is 1 BPV and two energy (three total) too much for that?
Does the cost mean you don't use it every turn in every scenario? Yes.

IT is short ranged but that is where such things can be MOST critical and where the difference in terms of damage is highest.

I'd be willing to explore a reduce ECCM value based on range from the ECCM Probe but it would only work against one target (and would elimiate the to-hit (which I don't like). So at R6 it could give you 3 ECCM against a target in its hex, or 2 ECCM against a target in the next hex (R7) or 1 ECCM for a target in the second hex out (R8).

Remember, R8 is a critical range. If the ECCM Probe is 100% effective at R8 then that's what everyone will always do. Launch an ECCM Probe at R9 for their R8 alpha strike. It then changes nothing.

Limiting it to R6 with a to-hit of 1-6 makes it a real gamble, one you must mitigate ahead of time. With an R6 limit you get this new boundry that players may go for. Instead of auto-firing at R8, what do you do when your opponant doesn't fire at R8? Your reaction may make a major difference. So then he gets to R6 and fires the ECCM probe. Do you suddenly feel you must turn a good shield? Maybe you decide to run over that mine instead of take an even-on alpha strike. So you turn and now you are going straight for three impulse. You opponant now holds fire, increases speed and dives in on your #5 for an R1 alpha.

I'm sorry, but this thing, as I proposed, doesn't seem at all unuseful. It's extremely powerful and it's limitations actually make its play factors even more useful. (And don't call that metagaming because it is decidedly not.)

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 01:22 pm: Edit

I can see the use for it in bluffing, but 3 power (of which 2 are on the turn of attack) for 3 limited ECCM isn't that great. We must assume you're already generating 6 EW for it to be worthwhile, which sucks up even more power.

As for the 1-6 to hit, bear in mind that there will presumably be a shift (or else why are you firing it?) so the best you'll get is 1-5.

R6 is OK; hit on 1-6 is OK; 3 ECCM is OK. But lumbering it with extra energy AND the need to buy more special ammo is a bit much.

You mentioned above something about Feds getting 10 probes. Apart from the GSC, where does this come from?

And since you mention them, narrow salvos should be banned. Broken rule.

By James Hallmark (Jhallmark) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 03:14 pm: Edit

I think the energy cost needs to be at least 1 to 1 with the ECCM generated. I don't think it should be more energy efficient than ship produced ECCM. I think it should be sufficiently energy expensive to limit its use.

I agree with the lock on requirement. We don't want to kill Cloakers.

I am still pondering whether it is an optional mode for all probes or whether this should require special ammo. If it is an optional mode for all probes it needs to be limited in its effect. This way it wont have a big effect on history.

I do think there needs to be a per turn firing limit.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Clarification: I'd like to see the ECCM probe *only as a counter to ECM from drones and shuttles*. No special ammo required, arm for the usual 1+1, single target, single impluse, unlimited range of effect (the probe goes within six hexes of you, but all you need is triangulation that the target is in X position moving in Y, not a detailed scan), provdides 3 ECCM that can only counter lent EW.