All right, here's a challenge. I'm about to run a Romulan force against the Tholians, any advice? Are the Tholians as much of a threat in a Cruiser duel, or are they mostly a problem when they are in static-defense?

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:21 am: Edit

The main question is, do the Tholians have Web Casters?

By William J Gauthier (Vortia) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:28 am: Edit

Not sure, but it's a good possibility.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:38 am: Edit

You need that answer. What is the YIS? Tholians without WCs are completely different from ones with it.

Without Web Casters, you're basically facing Lyrans; disruptors, phaser-1s, and no secondary system of note.

How many ships/BPV on each side?

With a Web Caster, you're in trouble. More than 1 and you're in deep trouble.

By William J Gauthier (Vortia) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:58 am: Edit

Let's assume I am for the purposes of this question. I'm fully expecting the YIS for this Patrol Scenario to be in the early Y180s.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:54 am: Edit

This means you could easily face 3 Web Casters. (NCA + NCL are 306 BPV in Y178. Under (E12.16), the Tholians would need 8+ ships to bring a 4th Web Caster. The NDN could up this by another WC, but would require enough BPV to buy the NDN and the 3 accompanying ships under (S8.331).)

Facing 3 Web Casters, the Romulans should go home. Cloaking is out of the question vs. cast web. Seeking plasma, unless you launch individually and do a good job with pseudos, tend to get caught in web. There is a reason they never did more than a pro-forma attack on the Tholians.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:00 am: Edit

How many points? What year? Any restrictions? Have you already been locked into a fleet, or can you change/choose still?

By William J Gauthier (Vortia) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:07 am: Edit

I don't know what they are bringing, and I haven't selected my forces yet. We're probably going to go with 500 BPV, because we both felt like this was a good limit. No restrictions out of the ordinary.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:33 am: Edit

You should assume they will have web casters unless you find out otherwise. Give some serious consideration to X ships, particularly the SKX, SKSX, SPEX and SABX. If you don't want to use X units, consider taking a PFT and PFs.

By William J Gauthier (Vortia) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:48 am: Edit

What would be the best way to utilise the PFs? The only thing I can think of is that with so many units you should be able to have at least a few of them flank around the web to hit their ships, assuming they don't start setting up Globular web. Of course, I'm not experienced fighting the Tholians at all.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Propose some stalemate rules that take the globula web option off the table or at least force him to come out and play rather than force you to come in after him. Worst you will hear is "no".

If he goes globular, try to pick off the generating ship(s). If he gets it set up and powered past 10 strength or so (or will have it powered past 20 before you can get back out), refuse to dive into the web. Let the game stagnate to make the point. The reasoning is simple: "I dive into your web, you win. That's not fun for me."

Be prepared to bolt your plasmas. You're talking like you're looking for launch opportunities. If you haven't historically made much use of plasma bolts, now would be a great time to shift tactics. A glory zone battle pass might throw him off his game. Accent on Roms with FA/FP plasma arcs if you're going to bolt much.

Remember you have ECPs available. You will have something of an EW advantage since the tholians don't have an ECM widget at this time.

Remember to upgrade your plasmas to sabot. If you do launch plasma into a web, you want it to muscle its way through if at all possible.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:52 pm: Edit

William,

I doubt the Tholian will try to set up a globular web in this case. (I wouldn't do so, at any rate.) It takes a long time because of the power requirements and therefor is only viable against a not-very-aggressive foe or if the Tholians have massive power available to lay the web and bring it up to strength quickly.

If the Tholian does try to create a globular web, I would probably rush him while it is still weak. Note that any strength web will block Romulan direct fire, but a weak web will have minimal effect on Romulan movement or seeking plasma.

I would fight this (as the Tholian) as a maneuver battle, using web casters to control position and block seeking plasma. They could also be used to expose a cloaked ship, or as a web fist if you are bolting plasma rather than launching it. I would happily wager my disruptors/photons, phaser-1s, and web fists against your phasers and plasma bolts, given that I could use 1 of my web casters to try to control the range and keep you from effectively using "glory zone" tactics.

For a Y180, 500 point Tholian force, I would probably go with something like:

NCA - 170 BPV
NCL - 136 BPV
CWH - 135 BPV
PC - 59 BPV

The CWH might be a CHP (photons instead of disruptors, APR becomes AWR) and the PC should not be a PC+, even if your opponent has the BPV to afford it. The PC+ loses the web generators but picks up 2 phaser-3s and an APR. The PC+ is a slightly better single ship duelist, but without web generators it can't be an anchor for cast web.

There are other possibilities, depending on the exact BPV level and YIS. I don't think the Tholians have any X-ships in Y180. The force above is "shooter heavy" and lacks a scout. I might instead take a scout and reduce the number of shooters, but that probably means dropping to only 2 web casters. Still, it might be worth it.

The Romulans might be able to win on a fixed map by pinning the Tholians against a wall, though even that will be hard with such a maneuverable opponent, armed with web casters. On a floating map, the Romulans are badly outclassed by an equal-BPV web caster force. You would either need a BPV edge or the Tholian will have to blunder.^*

You asked how you would use PFs. You might try use their speed and maneuverability to launch plasma from short range and several directions at once. But this (a) invites defeat in detail if things don't go perfectly, and (b) at 500 BPV you can't afford to field all that many PFs, since you must also field a tender. A PFT (depending on specific model) and full PF flotilla eats up most of you 500 BPV all by itself. As an alternative, consider "casual PFs" on mech links on your regular ships. The downside of that approach is that you can't bring a PFS this way and the PFs lose most of their EW advantage.

^*Or you could have fantastic luck with the dice. But assuming good Tholian play and average distribution of luck, you really need more BPV than the Tholian in this case. He has a pronounced RPS adavantage.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:57 pm: Edit

They won't do a globular web. That would be cheesy and you should just cloak at range until they come out.

The PFs (skip the PFS) should swarm in under cloak, each with their own attack vector. The PFT (a SPEX or SABX-PFT is nice) provides EW and OEW. With 12xPL-Fb/turn incoming from six vectors, they won't be able to stop them all. The key is to maintain a solid EW advantage, particularly OEW on their big ship.

By William J Gauthier (Vortia) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Thanks for the good advice John! I get the feeling this is going to be an uphill fight for me, but I'm going to give it my best shot, much appreciated!

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:05 pm: Edit

One other point on globular web. Tholian ability to set one up quickly will depend on their distance from the Romulans at start-of-battle. They could also use web casters to try to delay the Romulan approach until the web is strong enough. The NCL is probably not viable for this role as it can use its web caster to cast a web or put reinforcing energy into the globular web, acting as a standard web generator. So if it casts a web to slow the Romulan approach it can contribute no energy (that turn) to the globular web. The NCA, on the other hand, could use one of its web casters to delay the Romulans while using the other caster as a snare to reinforce the globular web. So if the Tholian tries this approach, he probably casts only one web to delay the Romulans.

Over all, I still wouldn't try to set up a globulsr web in this scenario. I think that in open space the Tholians generally fight better as a maneuvering force, in contrast to their prepared defense tactics.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Tos,

I think your proposed force is too limited. The Tholians don't need to stop them all. They delay some of them and blast the others as they are coming out of cloak. I could see a Romulan PFT in this battle with a high BPV, cooperating with ships. But I don't think they will work against an experienced Tholian at only 500 BPV.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:30 pm: Edit

I'm not sure what X-ships (if any) the Romulans get by Y180. But X-ships would definitely help somewhat. Two big factors are the ability to get a -1 DRM for ECCM, and the fast-loading ability. These make plasma-bolting much more viable. Once Tholian web caster-equipped X-ships show up the Romulans are in bad shape even with their own X-ships. I do not believe there is any plasma ship that is an even-BPV match in a duel against a Tholian CCX. Direct-fire X-ships might be able to match it BPV for BPV^*, but plasma? Nope, huge RPS advantage for the Tholians.

^*I think a Hydran Tartar-X (230 BPV versus 220 for the CCX (or 225 for the photon version CPX); close enough that I would call that an even BPV fight) would make an interesting match. The Hydran has better power, and those X-tech hellbores. The Tholian has better shields and phasers (at least beyond 2 hexes) and a web caster. Two very bad a** 2/3 MC ships.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Alan, perhaps, but the propsed Tholian force (NCA, NCL, CWH, PC) is going to have difficulties trying to kill PFs at range 10 through a +2 or +3 shift. I'd rather be on the side of 12 PL-Fb than 12 Disruptors.

5xCENb+ (260)
1xCENLb (55)
FHEb (178)
Total: 493

Assuming the FHE avoids combat initially and rolls a pair of PL-G he can make speed 14 and have 15 EW to lend before dipping into his 3 bats. Sure, I'd rather have the X-PFT, but I'm not sure it's worth loosing a PF for.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Alan, careful with your date assumptions, all we know so far is

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Quote:

I'm fully expecting the YIS for this Patrol Scenario to be in the early Y180s.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Tos,

Good point on the date. (I assume you meant "date assumptions"?) I just read it as Y180, when that wasn't what the post actually said.

But I will repeat that if the Tholians can bring a CCX (even if this reduces total number of web casters) the Romulans are totally outclassed on a floating map (unless they have a lot more BPV).

Possible "late" 500 BPV Tholian force:

CCX - 220
NCM - 151
DPX - 129

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:55 pm: Edit

One final note.

There are two situations when, as the Tholians, I will always allow my opponent extra BPV for an S8 Patrol Battle. Web caster-equipped Tholians versus a plasma race and an assault on a Tholian prepaerd defense by any race which doesn't have "web-circumventing" technology. "Web-circumventing" technology would include Selt web breakers (obviously), Adromedan DisDevs (and the ability to move ships by transporter) and several Omega systems.

Unfortunately, I don't have some formula for "how much extra BPV". The Tholians have major RPS issues and also scale in "non-linear" ways so I have to go by guess and experience.

By William J Gauthier (Vortia) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 02:30 pm: Edit

I'm a bit of an inexperienced player, what is this "RPS" abbreviation everyone is throwing around?

Thanks for all your help guys. I could tell by the rulebooks that this was going to be a tough fight, but I don't mind losing as long as I give it my all.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 02:33 pm: Edit

RPS = Rock-Paper-Scissors. It describes the situation where one unit is markedly superior to specific types of units/races than to others. (Rock beats Scissors but loses to Paper)

In this case, Web Caster equipped units are advantaged over any plasma opponent, making the WC unit worth more than it's printed (average) BPV.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 04:04 pm: Edit

William,

I just had a thought. For the mentioned time frame and BPV level, it's relatively easy for the Tholians to field a fleet with 2 or even 3 web casters and remain within the constraints of both S8 and E12.16. Have you considered making a gentleman's agreement with your opponent, that he only field a single web caster? This depends on the specific personality of your opponent and I don't know if he would go for it. But from time to time I have made similar "munchkin reduction" agreements with an opponent to preclude one or both of us from buying things that, though legal, could have adverse consequences for the game.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 05:32 pm: Edit

I don't think in a squadron action the whole RPS of a caster is that big a deal.

Anyone who munchkins out his max # of webcasters is someone you likely don't want to play with anyway. The tholians had all of 10 some Neo ships. They ARE NOT going to put 2-3 of them in the same fleet.