A couple of things to add to this.

1. this is a interim design towards the eventual PFT (YIS 181). It includes mounting a tractor beam in the wing sections holding the weapons pylon. It also mounts the 2 special sensors in the disrupter positions, just as the PFT did.

2. the cargo boxes iin the GSD design will eventually be converted into Repair boxes.

There are a couple of departures as well, the AUX Con and the Labs were unchanged in the PFT from the DD... and would need to be changed back from the GSD.

OVerall, the GSD would provide virtually all of the same systems that the SR carries... plus the GSD actually improves on the SR in that the GSD has 2 probes (instead of the 1 the SR has) and 1 extra LAB box compared to the SR.

It has 1 less cargo box.

All in all, it would seem that the GSD could effectively replace the SRS in most missions.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 10:06 pm: Edit

Jonathan,

the DD class was discontinued early in the production cycle.

It was eventually replaced by the CM.

In F&E, I believe the production amounted to 6 hulls or less (IIRC 3 of the DDs were to be produced in the first Kzinti production turn).

Generally, the DD's were a kind of "neither fish nor fowl" thing until the advent of PF's when the remaining hulls were converted to a very good PFT.

This proposal is a suggestion that part of the tranformation to PFT may have started earlier than year 181.

Also, this is a proposals board.

The design isnt really final until (or if) the Steves say its final.

It is entirely possible that as a result of yours (and other peoples )comments, the design might change to resemble the PFT more and the DD less.

I wasnt happy about putting 8 Forward Hull on the ship, but felt that it was important to get the 6 labs in a single group.

Perhaps some other method will be sugggested, that allows the original AUX CON and 2 lab box system to remain intact (just as it is on the PFT).

To be honest, I'd also prefer to have the A Hull stay at 2 x3 groups of hull... just as the PFT has it.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 10:09 pm: Edit

I would suggest comparing it to the Kzinti DD based scout.

It would seem to me to be the logical step.

DD-> DDS -> DDSR? -> PFT

personally, I think the DDS is enough.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Jim Davies,

I submit that the PFT is the end product of what the hull is capable of holding.

It must have had a lot of room for future expansions because of what they added to the base DD hull. Thats why I talked about the DD/ GSD being a possible interim variant... by mounting the Tractors in the wings it anticipated part of the PFT refit.

By using Michael Grafton's suggestion (as you apparently (atleast partially) did also), (ie converting the disrupters into special sensors) we can examine how the design matured over time to arrive at the PFT.

Ineffect, the development of the DD to DDS to DDSR to PFT tells a compelling history of how the DD class changed its role in the Hegemony navy.

Perhaps the way to go is to mimic as much of the PFT design as its posssible to do with the DD base hull and then we can evaluate what other changes need to be made to get a functional Survey vessel.

System	DD	GSD	SR	PFT
Bridge	2	2	3	2
PH1-FX	2	2	0	2
PH1-FA-L	0	0	1	0
PH1-FA-R	0	0	1	0
PH1-360	2	0	0	2
Ph1-LS-RR	0	1	0	0
Ph1-RS-LR	0	1	0	0
F Hull	2	8	5	2
Tran	3	3	3	3
EM BR	1	1	1	1
BATT	3	3	3	3
Probe	1	2	1	1
Trac	2	2	2	6
Lab	2	6	5	2
Special Sen	0	2	2	2
Disrupter	2	0	0	0
PH3-LS	1	1	2	1
PH3-RS	1	1	2	1
Drone B	2	2	0	0
Drone C	2	2	2	2
ADD	0	0	3	2
SHUTTLE	2	6	6	1
AUX CON	2	1	1	2
Rear Hull	6	0	12	6
Impulse	2	2	4	2
L Warp	6	6	10	6
R Warp	6	6	10	6
C Warp	6	6	10	6
APR	4	0	0	1
Cargo	0	8	9	0
Repair	0	0	0	6
internals	62	74	100	68
Ex Dam	4	4	6	4
Total Boxes	66	78	106	72
Total Warp	18	18	30	18
Total Power	24	20	34	21
Crew Units	30	30	40	30
BPs	12	12	8	8
Size Class	4	4	3	4
Shield Cost	1/2+1/2	1/2+1/2	1+1	1/2+1/2
Life Support	1/2	1/2	1	1/2
Move Cost	1/2	1/2	1	1/2
Turn Mode	B	B	C	B
Total Power	24	20	34	21
Total Weapons	9	?	4	4
House Keeping	2 1/2	2 1/2	4	2 1/2
Movement
Best Speed

This shows the comparisons of the ships talked about.
edit

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Jim,

No.

It would have been an upgrade/refit of a ship design that dated back to year 165.

Not the same thing at all.

Infact, this design wouldnt have existed except for the war and the need to develop the off map provinces ASAP.

It does however (as you indicate) cap the design at 72 boxes... which means something will have to be sacrificed from the DDSR/GSD design.

And too much below the capacity of the SR means that the GSD cant function in the role effectively as a substitute for the SR.

Pity, as it stands we're within 6 or so SSD boxes of having a viable plan for the conversion.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Well, lets take another crack at this sucker...

System	DD	GSD	SR	PFT
Bridge	2	2	3	2
PH1-FX	2	0	0	0
PH1-FA-L	0	0	1	0
PH1-FA-R	0	0	1	0
PH3-360	0	2	0	2
PH1-360	2	2	0	2
F Hull	2	2	5	2
Tran	3	3	3	3
EM BR	1	1	1	1
BATT	3	3	3	3
Probe	1	1	1	1
Trac	2	2	2	6
Lab	2	6	5	2
Special Sen	0	2	2	2
Disrupter	2	0	0	0
PH3-LS	1	1	2	1
PH3-RS	1	1	2	1
Drone B	2	0	0	0
Drone C	2	2	2	2
ADD	0	2	3	2
SHUTTLE	2	1	6	1
AUX CON	2	2	1	2
Rear Hull	6	6	12	6
Impulse	2	2	4	2
L Warp	6	6	10	6
R Warp	6	6	10	6
C Warp	6	6	10	6
APR	4	1	0	1
Cargo	0	6	9	0
Repair	0	0	0	6
internals	62	68	100	68
Ex Dam	4	4	6	4
Total Boxes	66	72	106	72
Total Warp	18	18	30	18
Total Power	24	21	34	21
Crew Units	30	30	40	30
BPs	12	12	8	8
Size Class	4	4	3	4
Shield Cost	1/2+1/2	1/2+1/2	1+1	1/2+1/2
Life Support	1/2	1/2	1	1/2
Move Cost	1/2	1/2	1	1/2
Turn Mode	B	B	C	B
Total Power	24	20	34	21
Total Weapons	9	4	4	4
House Keeping	2 1/2	2 1/2	4	2 1/2
Movement
Best Speed

I have realigned the systems of the PFT with the DDSR/GSD.

It only has 1 shuttle at present... but I'm not sure what to trade for it...

At present it has 68 internal boxes (just as the PFT does) and I figure the Repair boxes of the PFT are in the most logical place for the cargo boxes of the DDSR/GSD.

the PFT has 6 tractor/mech links... so I'm thinking leave 2 as the tractors on the GSD/DDSR and change the other 4 tractors to labs, giving the DDSR/GSD a total of 6 labs (1 more than the SR has!)

The only other option I can see is relace APR with a Probe and replace the probe with the original shuttle bay on the right side of the main hull.

that would be -1 APR, retains 1 probe and gives the ship 2 shuttles.

does anyone have a better idea or suggestion?!?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 06:05 pm: Edit

There is one other option...

change one of the 2 tractors to a probe launcher.
change the APR (in the command section) to 2 shuttles.

that gives the design 69 internals, with 4 shuttles 1 tactor , 6 cargo and 6 labs.

some system counts are better than the SR and some not as good.