They had 12 Neo-Tholian ships^* in the 312th. 2 NDN, 4 NCA, and 6 NCL. I agree they would be unlikely to put 2 Neo-Tholians in such a small force. But they could under the rules. Or if they used 1 NCA, that's still 2 web casters.

^*Actually, the 312th apparently had more ships than this but the smaller ones were scrapped to make the larger, more important cruisers and dreadnoughts operational. Also, though people tend to forget this, the 312th also arrived with 2 spare command modules. So total web casters (until the Tholians figure out how to produce them in this galaxy (Y184)) is 6 (from the NDNs) + 8 (from the NCAs) + 6 (from the NCLs) + 2 (from the spare command modules) for 22 web casters total. Of course, it took some time for thr Tholians to get those ships combat-ready.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:33 pm: Edit

If you're dealing with web, you want R-torps and X-ships.

One ships I'd recommend that's NOT an X-ship is the RGC. Based on the Regalhawk hull, she packs an R-torp and 4 scout channels.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Pretty much, as the Romulan, you're going to have to hope for a mistake by the Tholian. The good news is that cast web is very much a finesse game and gives you opportunity for said mistakes.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:59 pm: Edit

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I don't think in a squadron action the whole RPS of a caster is that big a deal.

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Anyone who munchkins out his max # of webcasters is someone you likely don't want to play with anyway.

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By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:19 pm: Edit

The other person wants to have a chance of winning and hates to be beaten before the game gets set up. IE: Sore loser that doesn't even want to play if there's a REALLY good chance he will lose. The thing is is that LIFE isn't fair, DEAL WITH IT. That's what tactics are for.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:30 pm: Edit

I'd rather have a close but second place finish in an uphill fight than a first place rout in a fair fight.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Small point.

If you allow the tholians to choose Neo-tholian ships, you are also entitled to comment that the loss of ANY Neo-tholian ship is a disaster in tholian political circles, as they are irreplacable.

Maybe a VP modifier?

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Bear,

A Web can block 1 ship and make life hard, it cannot stop 3 ships from getting a firing solution. I just don't see this as the end of the world for the roms.

A floating map is a much worse deal for plasma guys than a webcaster or 2.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 02:04 pm: Edit

One of the reasons I recommend R-torps is that they actually have the endurance to get through web.

A good reason for X-ships is the rapid-firing capability; plus, M-torps are almost as good as Rs.

The RGC is nice because webs do NOT block loaned EW, and so it can do its "scout thang" through web easily enough. And it packs an R-torp for when you need it, the launching of which will only blind 1 channel.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Would a mauler be a good choice here? A flamehawk delivers 2 S-torps and a load of batteries. It could bounce an enemy alpha, tractor a ship, and even fire the mauler if there's power left.

It would be a must-kill ship the enemy could focus on, perhaps paying less attention the rest of the Rom fleet.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 04:42 pm: Edit

John,

A mauler might be a good choice on a fixed map. But if the game is on a floating map against Tholians with web casters it will never get into a good firing position.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 04:54 pm: Edit

If you're going to take a mauler, make sure it's a "fighting mauler" such as the FHF. Wouldn't recommend a "pure" mauler such as the KRM, or FAL.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 05:41 pm: Edit

BTW, if your opponent always likes to take Neo-Tholians keep a record of every one he loses....and when he has lost all of them in one class tell him he can't take any more of those because they're all dead.

It's good for at least a few minutes of fun as he complains about your unfair rule about irreplaceable ships. And who knows, you could get it instituted as a local "house rule" by everybody else who keeps killing these ships only to see them again and again and again.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 06:35 pm: Edit

If you want R torps, you can get a lot of them very cheaply with a couple of Warbirds. Tow them into the middle of the map, let them cloak and TAC, and drive the Tholians into the corners. Doesn't work on a floating map, of course.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Why would Roms or Gorn agree to play on a floating map? Doesn't matter if your are fighting the Tholians - that only makes the Tholian RPS worse.

Don't fly Roms and Gorn on a floating map. Perhaps use a fixed point that one map floats around, or use two fixed maps, if one map is viewed as too tight.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Heck, if you want massive R-torpage without resorting to completely obsolete units, try:

(179) RGC (1x R, 4x SpecSen)
(170) KVL (2x R)
(140) KE (1x R)

That gives you 4 R-torps, a heavy scout, and some points left over for options.

Alternately, you can replace the KVL with a FHF and you'll have a Mauler, too.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:08 pm: Edit

I gottta agree there. Floating map Rom vs. Tholian? Tell him to pick his fleet and that before the battle starts you will flip a coin for sides. When he balks then say "I think I can defeat a 500 point Romulan force with 450 points of Tholians" and start bidding for sides.

When all that fails, buy SABX and FHFX from X1R. The power curve on both are ridiculous. Put PL-D racks in the option mounts and buy a bunch of Seeking Weapon Drogues. You can skip the fighters, or take remote control ones and don't tell him. Oh, and tell him you insist on using tac-intel. If after all this you do play the battle and win, ask him not to pick battles that are so unbalanced next time, then explain to him what a munchkin is.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:53 pm: Edit

If you don't want to do X-ships go with Dales R-Force. That will give you one of the best chances. It will also help us actually give you tactics rather than opinions. And call your opponent on the phone and decide between fixed/floating maps too.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 08:17 pm: Edit

For that matter, if the darn battle is in an asteroid field, the Roms should just leave...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Right, unless they get to seed the area with hidden mines beforehand... ;)

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Or seed it with friendly Jindarians...

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 01:30 am: Edit

Don't forget that DNs require 3 escorts by S8.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 01:47 am: Edit

A favorite trick of mine is to take 4xSp-Gb+ (496), get to range 5 the impulse before the Tholians don't move, bolt enough plasma to be sure you knock down the shield. On the next impulse drop your facing shield, hit and run all his control spaces, and beam over boarding parties. You have 28 transporters to work with, some of which can double up at the non-combat rate, or direct damage against his last few control spaces. Evade, recharge, repeat.

This works particularly well if you use Tac-Intel and he doesn't know you have Commando Cruisers until too late.

Another spin is to take three Sp-Gb+ and load each up with three Seeking Weapon Drogues and an MRS (124+30+8 = 486), pop the MRS and ECP to assist with EW, pull off your transporter stunt (21 transporters), then slow down to drogue speed and 4-impulses later let him have it with 48xPL-Db. You have to get inside his fleet to make this work, but I'll leave that exercise up to you.

You can do much the same thing, perhaps easier, with a SUPKb (203) + 4xRemote Control Glad-DM (4x18) + 4xRemote Control G-IIIM (4x12) + FHFb (173) = 499. Whatever the FHF can anchor dies to the fighter plasma. Remote control allows a fighter to fire all their plasma on the same impulse, which is 4xPL-Fb, 32xPL-Db. Of course the challenge remains getting close enough to the cowardly Tholians, but that's what speed 31 and stupid tractor tricks to gain an extra movement impulse 1 is for.

The point of all this advice is you have a nearly impossible battle on your hands. You will need to perform some sort of stunt to force an error. Find some stunt you like and go for it.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Jeez,

Because, yes, the Romulan Empire is going to concentrate their ENTIRE AVAILABLE force of SPGs for your little squadron action.

Tos, consider that officially vetoed.

No problem with the second group, other than they are two quite valuable ships.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 02:32 am: Edit

Guys, remember... some games have no future and no past. Some games don't care about S8 limits or F&E. Not saying you have no point, but from what the initial poster said, I'm not sure any of these considerations are being taken into account or followed.