Dan, Douglas,

Why? How is a rapid-pulse P2 somehow easer on GW or X1 than a P6, which has less range and damage potential?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 06:03 pm: Edit

I've always assumed that any rapid pulse phaser would be under X-Aegis restrictions, including the (XD13.0) range 15 limit. Based on some P6 tables I've seen this would actually make the rapid-pulse P2 shorter range than a P6. Not sure if this answers any outstanding questions, but I thought I'd bring it up.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 06:11 pm: Edit

A Ph-2 has longer mid-range that would make PF's and Shuttles/Fighters totally useless. The R3 damage and worse the R4-8 column is totally out.

It was almost unanomous when the Ph-6 was first proposed that the Ph-2 chart was way too powerful and not because of its R1 or R15 characteristics. Look at the whole chart.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 07:16 pm: Edit

A.T.:

1) I presonnaly don't think the Tholians should get X2...it was just an example.

2) A) The Romulans had a civil war. Two different types of X2 design philosophy might be developed by the remains if the two factions, particularly ig monitary restrictions affect one faction but not the other.
B) Different fronts might yeild different weapon arrays. The Tholians (or possibly Klingons...I mean who knows) will probably and the Feds will probably, need; to be faced by ships with forrests of Ph-1s (particularly Fed drones) where as the Gorn and ISCs probably need Ph-5s in all directions.
C) The Romulans might even find that mixed design ships (the X2 KRs don't have to be Klingon built; just continuations of the Krestel design mentality ) generates better designs due to the theory the Federation depended on for its fighter construction: "competition".

3) So that Lyrans will be less willing to ram Kzinti ships with their "big hammer".
Also so that Fed, Klingon and Orion drones are less likely to harm Kzinti vessels.

The shift to the Post-Andro period will in many ways require ships that are like MY ships and I think following the pattern with phaser suites is going to aid those ships in operating that way.
Yes the Kzintis are less likely to fall into civil war than they had done in the MY period (probably) but the Klingon DXD is is still around and SPs can't be uninvented so the Kzintis want a forrest of point-defense phaser shots to protect them what the Klingons can and will chuck.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Also for what it's worth, I'm not totally against the Kzintis being the only race to have the Ph-M.
But the developer of that can speak for himself and I think Lego-drones, Disruptor Cannon and Ph-Ms would be taking the Kzintis too far from their traditions so maybe some/most of those won't come to pass.


On outer limit of Ph-6s.
I (unlike the Ph-5/7 commement I made earlier) don't mind if we have an odd ending of the table at R15 but have Ph-6 shots able to reach R25.
To some degree if the Ph-Q ( a Ph-G analog using the Ph-6 chart ) for the Hydrans is used then you'll need that extra range to fire off long range sniping from fighters...it'ld stink to have all your fighter based phaser shots come under the X-Aegis restrictions for X2 fighters.
So having the Ph-6 chart firing out to R25 but still being limited to R15 when you fire rapid pulses doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's an un-natural boundary so it doesn't matter if the table has an un-natural stopping point.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Tholians absolutly should get X2. Were it not for the constant pressure of the Klingons (and other pressures) they might have had it first since they were GW tech(+) decades before everyone else (and a bit behind in a few aspects).

By the time the GW is over they are up to speed enough to keep up with the Kjones's.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Also note that some races might have different priorities when developing the their X2 vessels.
Most races will say we need cruisers that can fight off the ISC CCX and the Orion CX but are basically designed to a show case of what is possible for an X2 vessel.

On the other hand, the Kzintis might be thinking;" If we want to recapture a planet WEWANTTOSTAYNEUTRAL VII and the Klingons have sold of an old D7W to that neutral world and there's some likelihood that a DXD or D6D (being used alone and opperating as an impromptu survey vessel) could be sent by the Klingons to aid the planet or perhaps even both", then the Kzinti mid set would yeild a ships that is quite different and very focussed on drone defense compaired to other races.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 08:25 pm: Edit

They were MY during the EY so I think it's fair if they don't reach X2.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 10:55 pm: Edit

I'm with MJC on this. The Tholians don't need an X2 ship. They don’t travel long distances from the holdfast, don’t have distant colonies to patrol and aren’t an expansionist power. There were no home galaxy X1 or X2 ships to copy. X1 class Tholians are more than sufficient.

The Web Caster is already unbalancing and already advanced tech. A P5 that can fire through a web is just abusive and unbalancing. They don’t need more.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 11:06 pm: Edit

The Tholians are kept in balance and check by their self imposed limits of the borders of the Holdfast. Historically Tholians left those boundaries only twice (grudgingly); during the General War—rarely and during the final phases of Operation Unity. Not even in their Early Years when they enjoyed a HUGE technological advantage over the Milky Way did they leave the Holdfast(Disruptor raid aside). They probably could have conquered vast swaths of the Federation and Klingon Empires and could have annexed The Romulan Star Empire without hardly trying.

However, the Tholians WILL be facing the same trials as everyone else when the Xorks arrive. And even though they do NOT know the Xorks are coming-they DO know the Seltorians are sooner or later and having escaped from their home galaxy by the skin of their teeth AND having to deal with the Tribunal they are NOT likely to rest upon their laurels.

Phasers that fire through web abusive and unfair? Then stay the HECK out of the Holdfast. Besides wheoever said war was FAIR? The Tholians have numerous disadvanatges the most telling being small numbers and small economy.
regards
Stacy

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 11:22 pm: Edit

MJC,

I regret to say I still don't buy your arguments. You may not want the Tholians to get X2 tech, and I believe Tos Crawford is with you on that. But until SVC says they don't get X2, I will continue to believe that they will. And I will continue to argue against suggested phaser suites that I don't think make any sense given the Tholian-unique technology.

Regarding the Romulans, even if there are post-Civil War factions that survive into the post-Andromedan period, why would they arm their respective ships with such radically different phaser suites? You still haven't explained that. The two drivers for the chosen phaser suite should be how well it meshes with other technology (not just ship hullform) the race possesses, and how well it performs against the threat. Unless one Romulan faction possesses technology that the other does not, or faces a threat the other does not, this logic will drive them towards similar phaser suites even if one group uses a Hawk-based hull and the other uses a KR-based hull.

The Kzinti deploy a primarily phaser-6 suite to keep the Lyrans from overrunning them? Maybe, but if I were the Lyrans I would organize my tactics around range-3 oblique attacks with an ESG set at radius-3^*. Discounting drones, the Lyran advantage in range-3 damage is overwhelming. The Lyran can try to use tractor beams and T-bombs to neutralize the drones, resorting to phasers and ESGs when that doesn't work. I believe the Lyrans have the edge in this situation because it seems to me there are more ways for the Kzinti to screw up the timing, and the consequences of screwing up the timing are worse for them. One way the Kzinti could counter this Lyran tactic is to play for a range-4 or range-5 oblique, but that doesn't work with your suggested phaser suite because the Lyrans outgun them at range.

And suppose the Kzinti are fighting the Klingons or Feds, the Fed-Kzinti alliance apparently being much less stable than the Fed-Gorn alliance? And if the existence of the DXD requires a Kzinti X2 ship to maintain a bunch of phaser-6s, why doesn't that argument apply even more strongly to the Federation? Since a drone can shoot down a drone, a Kzinti ship has far better drone defenses than a comparable Fed, assuming both have the same phaser suite. More to this, the Feds, unlike the Kzinti, also face a plasma-armed major opponent. So why don't you think the Fed X2 cruiser should be have primarily phaser-6s?

Sorry, but I'm still not convinced by your analysis. If you want to argue that your chart was just a hypothetical example, that's one thing. But then you shouldn't try to suggest post hoc rationalizations to justify phaser suites that don't stand up well to close scrutiny.


^*I don't play the Lyrans that much, but when I do play them I frequently use this tactic against the Kzinti, and with pretty good success.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 11:22 pm: Edit

For What its worth, I'd have to throw in with Stacy Brian Bartley.

The Tholians are very concerned with security and defense.

There was a quote in the movie "The Princess Bride"... "Life isnt fair. And any one who says differently is selling something!"

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 11:32 pm: Edit

While I was writing my reply to MJC, Tos posted his comment confirming that he doesn't want the Tholians to get X2. The problem that neither Tos nor MJC address is that ADB is a business that has to sell products. And while Tos and MJC may not like Tholians, others do. An X2 Module that doesn't give the Tholians any X2 tech will be less attractive to some segment of the customer base. I will certainly buy X2 even if the Tholians don't get X2. But not every SFB player buys every SFB product, and some players will be less likely to buy an X2 that they feel screws over "their" race. Personally, I find it implausible that the Orions would have been able to develop even X1 technology, given their background. But I find it even more implausible that ADB would publish an X2 Module that didn't give the Orions an X2 capability.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Why Tholians WILL have X2.

1)They will be destroyed utterly if they don't. It's does not matter if they actually would that they believe it so. And don't believe for a second the Klingons wouldn't take down the Holdfast in a wink of an eye if they gained the technological edge. Even after the Andro war the Tholians are still forign invaders.

2) Players will want it that way. Do you seriously think that the majority will be OK with everyone getting X2 but leaving the Tholians out?

3) The Selts are coming. Read the Selt data. It is already known that they are coming en masse. It won't be for a while and not likely during recorded history but they ARE coming to destroy the Tholians. The Tholians cannot and will not count on outside help and they cannot generate and support the numbers required to deal with them. They must gain a technological edge or die.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Honestly, whenever I hear people saying the Tholians shouldn't get X2 (Or X1 or whatever)I hear people who got their clocks cleaned by Tholians at one point and are getting some back.

Well here's the way it is: Tholians in a web emplacement are darn near invincible-which is the way it was meant to be. SVC will attest way back when I led a movement to "weaken" web some because it made attacking the Tholians unattractrive—hence ruining my campaigns! My arguments fell upon deaf ears. The only major thing that came out my long list of requests was assigning a BPV value to standing web. Which in itself was a good thing.

SO I come to the conclusion that SVC and ADB WANT the Tholians to be darn near invulnerable INSIDE the Holdfast. OUTSIDE the Holdfast fighting a WC armed ship requires unorthadox tactics which requires some players to have to play shall we say somewhat less...viscerally. In short they have to THINK rather than run and gun. ANY comparable ship can beat a comparable Tholian in open space PROVIDED they play intelligently.

People seem to miss that web also works against Tholians in subtle ways. They can't fire anything EXCEPT a phaser through it and that at a disadantage. If they cast it there's a subtle but almost irristable pressure to USE it essentially tethering the ship to the vicinity of the web. Probes can't fire through web. Transporters can't operate across web, tractors can't work across the web (although in the 2X era I would make an argument that the Tholians make a breakthrough in ONE of those two areas to add some new tactical implications).

So if somehow you feel inferior to Tholians it's merely because of our own vast cultural and moral superiority and NOT because of our ships are THAT much better;)

regards
Stacy

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:18 am: Edit

I posted a comment on this discussion in X2 Requirements (because comment is not really phaser-specifc, though it is not irrelevent to the discussion either).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:25 am: Edit

Stacy;

I mostly agree with you, but I will say this for Tos's side of the argument. "A" webcaster ship can be beaten by a comparable enemy (though a plasma ship or drone-heavy ship will have a much tougher time than a DF ship), but a webcaster-heavy fleet can cause most comparable-BPV opponents enormous problems. Web technology just doesn't "scale" the way most SFB tech does. I believe this was the rationale for E12.16 which places limits on how many webcasters the Tholians can deploy in a single fleet.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:49 am: Edit

Alan
It was indeed. But beyond that there's a practical reason why the Tholians can't produce that many web casters-COST. The Tholians dominated a whole galaxy and Web caster technology reflects that. But SERIOUSLY how often rules aside are you going to see a large Tholian WC armed fleet?

I see these same arguments applying to the ISC as a PPD powered fleet is a juggernaut (Seems to me there are similar limits to PPDs that can be assigned to a fleet as those on WCs).

Andromedan technology also gets more problematic as the fleet scales up. I haven't seen the Magellanics yet but there's probably one or more of them that suffer the same problem and I am sure there are Omegan races that also have this problem. So I am not so sure the scale problem is unique to the Tholians.

So lets take it as a given the Tholians are unlikely to be deploying large fleets outside the Holdfast. And to also hold in mind that a large fleet for the Tholians is NOT the same as a large fleet for the Klingons. For the Tholians a DN,CC DD & PC are a MAJOR deployment. While they have deployed larger elements-rarely if ever while in the Milky Way have they outside the Holdfast.

During the ISC conflict WCS were THE deterrant to the ISC entering the Holdfast. Without them it is certain they would have driven the Tholians all the way back to Tholia as the bases would be unable to be supplied. Yet the Tholians did NOT leave the Holdfast. Not until the Andromedan invasion did they assemble major fleet operations outside the Holdfast and then under the knowledge that Andromedan displacement device technology nullified their major defense so that if the Andromedans ever focussed ALL their energy on them they'd be "intercoursed".

In short the Tholians are meant to be the skull sweat race. They are harder to play and harder to play against because the strategies take longer and are not analogous to any other race technology (although the Andromedan Temporal Elevator and the ESG both offer SOME lessons which are cross appliacable. And I'm not as up to date on Omega as I'd like to b e but there are some races over there who are somewhat comparable to the Tholians in requiring more thought.

Myself I never understood why the Tholians ever bothered with disruptors and why they didn't just stuff all their ships full of P-1s. But again it was a conscious intent on the part of SVC and ADB to have the Tholians fight outside their web.

Yeah, WCs are scarey. But you know and I know the Tholians won't come boiling out of the Holdfast bent on galactic conquest (more's the pity I say) because SVC never MEANT them to and hamstrung them so they wouldn't and couldn't.

best regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:53 am: Edit

I had an opponant that showed me how to use cast web against the Tholians. It is very curcomstantial but effective. What it taught me as a Tholian player is to never assume the web will cause the desired effect.

As a Tholian opponant you must always plan for when the web will be most effective against you. That is, analize what is obvious about your tactics and determine how the Tholian can be thwart your plans. You can then plan an alternative but what is very effective is to slow down enough to be able to ram the cast web without damage. This means that the Tholian can not safely move near the web since you can just dive in and fire at him without penalty. A fleet of WC Tholians can fire levels of web but then you end up just as protected. You then can use that protections to do things you otherwise wouldn't dare.

Remember, cast web doesn't last THAT long.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 01:02 am: Edit

On Tholians.
I'll leave them up to better men than I.


On Romulan Factions.
Perhaps I didn't make a whole scentance!?! If one Romulan faction has relatively unlimited money it'll probably opt for an all Ph-5 design. On the other hand, if one Romulan faction has very little money then they'll cut corners (possibly by paying royalties for the blueprints to Klingon vessels) and use a mixture of Ph-5s and Ph-1s to make their vessel's cheaper.
Thus if one faction is one way and the other faction is the other way then you'll get both types of ships.

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Quote:

Maybe, but if I were the Lyrans I would organize my tactics around range-3 oblique attacks with an ESG set at radius-3*.

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Quote:

And if the existence of the DXD requires a Kzinti X2 ship to maintain a bunch of phaser-6s, why doesn't that argument apply even more strongly to the Federation?

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By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 01:07 am: Edit

One thing I would think that would be interesting would be technology development that renders web somewhat less impassable either to weapons or ship passage. In short I'd favor anything that would make web less absolute but dynamically easier to use (for the Tholians) at the same time.
regards
Stacy

PS Loren is right above.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 11:33 am: Edit

The Romulan civil war is over.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 03:32 am: Edit

And it's about time.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 25, 2009 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Boy, this is an old thread that got off track, eh?

I had this thought about the Phaser-5.

The phaser-5 is a heavier phaser with a tracking system that produces a more even damage curve (making average damage a bit more predictable). The top end of damage per phaser was just one point over the phaser-1 but it's low end damage was somewhat better per range bracket too.

Anyway, the damage chart was pretty good and only minor tweaks were the topic of discussion. The major topic was arming. Many could not stand having the arm cost be anything but the same old one point and 1/2 point to down fire. I wanted 1.5 for the Ph-5, 1 point to down fire as a ph-1, .75 to fire as a Ph-6 and 1/2 to fire as a ph-3. While not universally hated it didn't fly well.

Still, the more powerful phaser should cost something.

Then it hit me. OK, the more powerful Ph-5 beam may be due to greater efficiency but maybe this is harder to control directionally. And the smother damage curve may be due to a more advanced fire control system. As such I thought the added energy cost of the Ph-5 might be simplified in fire control.

The general idea is that all Ph-5's can fire as Ph-1's for no added cost, that is, regular fire control plus 1 point per phaser arming cost. But if you want to fire Ph-5's as Ph-5's you have to pay for advanced fire control. This may be one point on the fire control line or might better be represented by a cost equal to shield cost (or a data line on the SSD).

This would mean two things. The enemy would know your fire control status, and Ph-5's could not be fired under passive FC (although could still be fired as Ph-1's).

APC= Advanced Phaser Control

Example data line for a cruiser with eight Ph-5s:
APC = 2

APC could be powered with reserve power using the same rules as regular active fire control. APC would cycle each turn break regardless of when it was powered, just like regular fire control. Remember, APC would be tracked on the fire control line of the EAF.

So arming a Ph-5 would be:
Ph-5: 1 + APC
Ph-1: 1
Ph-6: 1/2 + APC
Ph-3: 1/2


Also consider that while the two extra points is a super low cost to a healthy X2 ship, as it take damage it becomes more of a factor and also there will be many situations where only a couple phasers are in arc to fire. Is it worth it? The systme also lends a slight advatage to smaller ships who would pay less of a cost for a smaller phaser-5 volley.

Which leads to another question I had for this. Should it be divisible in half? That is, half APC gets you half your phasers able to fire as Ph-5? Or should it just be a simple single system on/off thing. I'm thinking the latter.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, May 25, 2009 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Loren,

The X2 ships are supposed to have ring-firing phasers. The PH-5 fires via the ring. I would suggest PH-1s and 3s be the 360 degree point defense phasers.