Christopher, teh empire techs are Deep Dark Secrets, known only to the GM and his players. Let's say that the ISC had a rule that they could not produce their "real" ships until they had either been attacked by another empire or had observed a battle between two different empires. Let's also say that theri rules were they couldn't cross an empire's boundaries until they had been attacked.

Players could game the system if that were known. Buddies could "free" the ISC with a simple attack. They could pin the ISC by never having a battle along that border.

By Christopher Braun (Beancounter) on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Jean,

If I asked really, really nicely, with a sincere promise that I wouldn't distribute any Deep Dark Secrets without your express consent (that means even to my players), could I have a look at them?

I bought the rulebook to run a local, non-PBEM campaign. Anything that you could provide me with to help run it would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
--Christopher

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Sample bits and pieces for a Romulan (with bits of previous games and other empires thrown in for fun) one:
a) B12.50 modifier
b) conversion rates
c) hull types that qualify for the 20% FF discount
d) MCN
e) B13.30 modifier
f) a note that the SharrowHawk is exempt from the restrictions of a CW entering unsurveyed space.
g) another economic modifier
h) special RX
j) how to handle spare modules (effectively as tug pods)
k) another economic modifier
l) merchant marine rule
m) civil war problem
n) Something about Kestrels
o) empire specific R&D
p) work around for the lack of a true tug
q) something about cloaks
r) how to handle sublight fighters/bombers and ground bases
s) an interesting economic rule
t) cloaks
u) reminder of a YIS for an R1 unit
v) cloaks again
w) a list of techs that are unique (i.e. I can not trade even if I wanted to)
x) Old series to new series phase in rules
y) starting R&D (including ScoutBird/ScoutEagle changes so I have at start scouts)
z) starting special (poor/outstanding) crew and legandary officers
aa) spies
ab) national guard freebies
ac) starting free bases, ground bases, defsats
ad) starting shipyards
ae) merchant marine rule for nontactical warp
af) mods to system morale
ag) mods to supply rules for certain ship types
ah) drone upgrade rules
ai) mods to B12.90
aj) mutiny rules
ak) mods to C9.x rules
al) John Stiff's "favorite" rule- the dreaded Romulan Honor Charge, which in U1 allowed me to lower the DF of the largest old series flagship in a task force for one round of one battle in exchange for increasing the AF of the entire force. For some reason the Romulan Vulture hulls only tended to fight in one battle. Dead Vulture vs. obliterated gunline and nearly crippled 2nd and 3rd echelons.

many of these rules appear on all starting sheets (in different sequences, of course!).

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Actual except for some tech stuff most of the racial rules are common sense.
Feds can't go to either LW/FW untill their attacked.
Rom cloaks only 4 a year can be sold. The orion have a 1-3 to liberaty the cloak from the buyer, the buy get stuck paying for it.
Gorn 20% less for SC4 With their DD it needed otherwise they never build one.
kzinti/klingon Drone ships get 2 free attacks added to their first round
Think about the race and judge accordingly

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Christopher, most of the special rules are covered under the list that Howard made. In all honor, I cannot give away the secrets that belong to others.

What the special rules do is attempt to give you the flavor of your empire. As Rob pointed out, many times the Feds are limited in their war footing. If there are penalties there, you need to think of ways to balance it--maybe the Feds start bigger, maybe their nearest and dearest neighbors just think the Feds are wunnerful and join up, maybe the systems all have core economics. It is up to you to balance it and to make it slightly different each time so that everyone in the game cannot say, "Don't mess with the Feds and they can't mess with you no matter how greedy you are."

The best way for you to learn more is to go ahead and play in a game--I suggest U4 as it is designed for new players. That way you can try things out as you go and make sure that what you understand is the way it actually works. The thing that really hurts players is when they think they understand a rule, but it really isn't played that way. You'll have concrete examples, not theoretical ones. Jean the Fed Admiral will never learn from Jean the Librarian what is going on in your empire should you choose to have me help you with your empire.

Give me until midnight tonight and I'll try to update the vacancy list.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Rob- I never could sell/provide 4 cloaks per turn (the limit from SFB, I think). The U1 limit was one per turn (I might have been able to step around the limit somewhat by "upgrading" Snipe-A's to Snipe-P's (the same ship, transfered to the police, minus a cloak).

I agree with Jean and Rob on the "make it interesting". Some bits are similar for most empires (various limits and modifiers) and in a "perfect" world that part of the setup would be standardized. Some bits are empire specific, but pretty static between games (the need for a SB/early SE for pre Y165 Romulans so they get a scout; one way to give the Romulans a tug substitute). Other pieces are different between games (allowing the Romulans a "campaign conjectual FH based tug; how to handle the required "extra" A modules for the Romulan New Series hulls; starting LOs/PCU/OCU).

Mike's stock market idea in U2 was unique, and not a bad idea. The one flaw that broke things in retrospect was the buying stock in another empire giving you a view of their MM. Once one side figured that out and made use of it, things went off the rails IMO. The other, non-empire, stocks were mildly interesting and may not have broken the game (as a player I didn't see enough to be sure one way or the other for certain). The fast food chain stock (mcd?), for example, gave you a +2 to your homeworld's morale (might have been +1). Stacked with a QCB, and other morale raising tricks, you could end up with a HW morale of 14 or 15, which the QCB would turn into 28-30 EPs (peace, before multipliers) a turn. Another stock gave discounts on disruptor armed ships. Other ones no doubt did other interesting things. The big flaw with the stock idea was that once you got 50% + 1 share of the stock, there was no way to change who had it (short of knocking that player off). Just an example of an off the wall idea that has been tried to keep things fresh.

As Jean has noted, there are a number of GC players that can help with basic mechanics (we all have our areas of expertise), and who will, like a certain Mr. Garibaldi, not tell themselves what they know...

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 12:27 am: Edit

True the 4 cloak were an example about how things might work. In one of the games the Roms and Gorns struck a deal were the gorn transfered warp tech including all blueprints tech drawing ect for cloaks needless but we will say it anyway the GM was unhappy with this trade. I only got about a dz cloaks shipyard strikes Orions raiders john pure hated that trade.
In the long run it your game the rule book give the mech to run a base game the bells, whisles, and favoring are all yours

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 08:32 am: Edit

Christopher, I just noticed you said non-PBEM. Running this in Real Time is going to be a bear, compared to F&E. There is a lot of loosey-goosey economic stuff and it takes time to do it well. Part of the success is that your opponent doesn't necessarily know what ships you are building or how many you can produce. He doesn't know which world is your homeworld and cannot see you coming.

May I suggest that you do the econ and things like that behind the scenes and only do your battles in the open? The game is fairly delicately balanced and I don't know what it takes to break that balance.

Take Howard's look at the MM example above. You would know exactly where his MRR systems were. You would know what war footing he was on. You would know his CAN setting. You would know his trade pacts and thus his likely allies. You could tell how likely your convoy raids would be and how much they could wreck his economy.

Once you know his MRR sites, CAN, war footing, and trade pacts, you can back figure his likely income. You would know if he was running his sites up to 15% or 20%.

If you do things in the open, then spies and such are going to "interesting".

Feel free to email me and ask questions about other implications--my address is in my profile.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 11:58 am: Edit

Jean is right. The game system assumes things are being run double blind with the imperfect information that ensues. Having too good a bead on what the other players are doing will change the game. An overstretched analogy- GC is more akin to the SFB energy allocation form and hidden movement with cloaks, than the F&E accounting/cloaking model. Knowing MM deployments, system counts, ship counts, etc. too well/soon will allow too much analysis of the opposing side.

Consider the old U2 game. Mike started it with a hidden map. You knew where you were on it, but if you never saw a hex, you didn't know anything about it. This made attacking foreign empires tough- you had no ideas where their trade routes were, systems were, or the location of their homeworld. This made estimates of their income tough. Contrast that with the same game in the Y168 (vs. Y150) timeframe. By that point in time Mike went to a single unified map. Given that map, and a GM "five year update" (a fuzzy comparison of empire capabilities that by itself doesn't tell you too much in theory) I was able to nail down several empire's income (minus MRR bonuses) to a 2% margin of error.

The blind maps are nice from a concealed information standpoint, and tend to, IMO, make the game more fun to play. They regrettably increase the workload on the GM, which is why they are not the way the game is played all the time.

By Christopher Braun (Beancounter) on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Jean - Not going to run a real-time campaign - just a local one. Stuff'll be e-mailed in and out, more efficient. Still double blind and all that, just playing with people who can know each other, can chat face to face, mock each other at social gatherings, etc.

Thanks again one and all for the input. Meeting with my players later today to distribute fleet lists (By The Gods that was a task) and explain the rules for picking ships, etc. Should have the actual campaign started by next week.

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 04:30 pm: Edit

If you need a nasty Orion?

remember I don't know them, not friends and I am a true wild card

By Christopher Braun (Beancounter) on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 04:39 pm: Edit

OMA & MMR questions.
a) Do the auxiliary units from E4.20 need to be on site for the MMR, or are they in the SR or SD pools?

b) Minor/Major Colonies - What happens if I hit 20%, but only have the units for a Minor Colony? Can I make the Minor colony, or do I have to wait for the rest of the units and build a major?

c) B3.15 - So, only survey ships can do MMRs, but any scout can survey a hex? If so, doesn't that put some races at a disadvantage? (Rom, Kzi Y166; Thol None; Hyd Y171; ISC Y160) I assume that if this is the case, tweaking of ISD are needed to balance?

Thanks.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 09:33 pm: Edit

a) Support units must be in the same hex as the SRs, and that must be the hex of the MRR. R1 support units must be transfered to the military (Ex: R1M squadron). If they are supporting the MRR, they are not providing income.
b) At 15% you can go either way (minor or major). The turn after you get to 15%, you are committed to a major. Any support infrastructure less than a major does not produce income and can only be built up to major status via merchant marine funds. Funds, EE status, etc. dictate which is the "better" choice.
c) SC/SR- yes a SR (or FE-L/FE-S) is required for a MRR, but any SR/SC can survey a hex (but note CW/DW restrictions). Starting turn dictates things to some degree. Adding a campaign conjectual SR for the Tholians fixes them. Hydran SR is DD based and YIS Y145 (lucky b*stards- SC4 SR!). Allowing a Romulan PB (PB is to PE as the SB is to the SE and the WB is to the WE) can be used to fix them (although I'd be tempted to treat the PB as a FE-L or even an FE-S due to being sublight). R&D can be used to fix this in any case; or ruling that the FE-L and FE-S have earlier YIS dates (probably the least open to rules abuse).

Do be aware that it is possible to have a dozen SR groups active if a player focuses on that route, and that can disrupt the game balance badly. The U1 Romulans, for example, were behind the curve at "only" 6 SR groups (18 total SRs), but had the WB hulls (and two per turn only usable for Old Series SC3 hull conversion slots) out the wazoo. Had the game continued (and the ISC not made much headway), I would have been turning out a SR group a year for another 16 years (22 SR groups total; probably 15 to 17 active at any given time turning out a new system EVERY TURN). While other empires could match this if they manically focused on it, only the Romulans with their stockpile of not really too useful WB/WE hulls can do this without sacrificing their SC3 conversion slots. [Even if the Andros eventually curtailed this, being able to build 3 "free" scouts a turn has a certain utility in making the RTN route around parts of Romulan space.]

Short form- all empires have quirks. Either providing a campaign conjectual version SC/SR/Tug or allowing one to R&D a conjectual hull should be enough. As the example above suggests a well meaning fixes for "defects" may have unexpected game consequences.

Shorter form- all empires need an at start SC of some sort (FFS/DDS or move up date on existing one). all empires need a path to an SR, build a 5-10 year delay until availability is probably not a game breaker.

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Actual the failure to start with an SR can be costly to an empire.
1st you lose .005%income every turn on a one ship mrr
2nd while 2F-EL can sub for a SR it takes both can slots and conv slots plus you have the amount of bpv allow to be transfered.
3rd loss of income needed to research the SR and the build time.
4th MRR are economic multiplary 3SR on T7 add9% to your income.
5th for smaller empires MRR can make a hugh difference

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 10:53 pm: Edit

Rob 0.5% per SR per turn (you misplaced the decimal).

FOP (for the major system via 20% route) YIS is Y150; FEL/FES is YIS Y160. The FES/FEL are about as expensive (cashwise; I agree on conversion slots) as a "true" SR for most empires. While the traditional 3xSR (1.5% per turn) is typical, there are strategies where the 3xFEL, 3xFES, or even 1xFES (at 0.125% a turn) are reasonable. [You have to be playing a VERY long game for the 1xFES given that it will take 60 years (less a few for the inevitable RB turns) to get to 15%.]

Any player not doing a certain amount of R&D in GC is going to get a rude shock on some front in their first war. We saw this in previous games, even for empires that were not perceived as being engaged in tech sloshing. Diverting R&D to this from something else is a valid point.

Income for a minor empire from MRRs is iffy. The value for a minor empire is, IMO the goal is building up the system count so that you can first get to 7 majors, and then jump from 7 majors to 10 or 12 majors in a single turn (via upgrading several majors in parallel instead of the seemingly more rational serial) to avoid the disaster (or local minimum as some might label it) than 8 and 9 major systems are in the rules. Early on the goal is to get to 15% and a minor as fast as possible. Past 12 or 14 systems you start getting major payback for the 15% to 20% bracket and slower rates have some perks.

If there is a handy neighbor, frankly a trade pact nets better ROI under a proportional split model.

For a Y160 start date I'd not bother to change anything. The prototype rule gets everyone an SR within a few years (sooner if they get PDO). Ship mixes and such should make this all come out in the wash.

U4 with its Y150 start date may hose late bloomers. Tinkering with ship availability may be required; or other GM tweaks can be done. As a late bloomer in that game (by the book no fraking scout until the mid 160's), I'm going to dodge talking this one on the grounds of having an obvious bias.

With a start date before Y140, and the current ship mix for the Alpha races some sort of workaround is probably needed to put everyone on an equal footing (then again everyone is short on variants until Y3 is published...).

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 05:54 am: Edit

As for the ISC, look in the campaign rules section of Y2 and you have an out.

Remember for all empires that since this is an "abstracted ship" game, you can do some things that are much harder for SFB campaigns to accomplish. You don't have to have an SSD. You can "create" an earlier version of an SR -- weaker, with perhaps some handicap in the empire's special rules. Maybe it doesn't move as fast, maybe it has a DF penalty, maybe it is less effective at doing the MRRs. You as GM are doing the balancing. You just need to make sure there is a reason the empire wants to have its "real" SR. The same pattern is true of scouts.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 11:40 am: Edit

I have enjoyed reading this discussion. I am learning new nuances.

As for GM tweaking, yes it is a must. In U4, I play the Triaxians. There are a lot more ships (provided by Mike) than are listed in the regular SFB Triaxian section. Eventually, all of the requisite ships classes can be built.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 10:55 pm: Edit

This is an example of an empire special rule. It is inspired by some trash talk between John Stiff and I in U1. It is not in play in any current games (so far as any non-Romulan players know, anyway [snicker]).

Honorable Leadership: Romulan command ships (D6.40) may never be placed in reserve (A10.40a) in combat, nor may command ships use fleet formation tech (D7.0). Any battle which the opposing force has command ships or the squadron flagship in reserve, formation (D7.0), or ISC Eschelons doubles the chance of generating a Legendary Officer (C9.70) for the largest Romulan command ship in the squadron. One SC4 poor or green crewed ship automatically becomes normal crewed (C9.52) in such a battle. Only one squadron per turn gets these benefits (all must follow the restrictions), no matter how many battles happen involving Romulan squadrons.


Note that this rule gives the Romulans some handicaps (flagships are going to be much easier to get damaged by opposing forces). If the other side plays by the same rules, it is a wash (probably). If they don't, then the Romulans get a crew quality upgrade (if there is a poor crewed ship that survives the battle), and possibly a free legendary officer. It is limited to one per turn, lest someone try and game the system and generate 20+ crew upgrades and legendary officers by engaging in "live fire" exercises.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 11:29 am: Edit

Ah well, I can only speak to the ISC, Triaxian, and Canadien special rules (the three races that I have played). The Game Master determines the special rules for each race. It is part of the flavor of the game.

My first exposure to the Romulan special rules was in battle. They were not public knowledge at the time, though I suspect some of the vets know of them. It was an "interesting" experience.

I have deduced (via playing) that two of the Gorn special rules (past games): a MMR advantage and poor crew. Sometimes a special rule can be a disadvantage (poor crew).

One thing is certain, the Game Masters know all of the special rules. Beware, sometimes they will play a race (to relieve the tedium of running a universe)!

By Alex Aminoff (Aaminoff) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 10:03 am: Edit

I received the GC rulebook and read it through. I am curious about the intent behind the rules. Is there a designers' notes anywhere?

There do not seem to be any rules for maintenance (unless I missed them somewhere). In fact, mothballs cost money to maintain, while active ships do not. This implies that an empire's fleet can grow without bound.

It appears that the examples for squadron orders are human-readable. Does the GM plot out all movement by hand? Related to the point above, won't the large numbers of ships eventually make this unwieldy? Especially with the possibility of complex interacting reaction orders.

The combat system is F&E-like but uses modified BPV. This implies that, at least once empires have gotten going enough to build significant fleets, density is all-important. Doesn't this give an advantage to an empire with denser units on average? Or BBs with earlier in-service dates than others? In fact some forum posts I found suggest that a density imbalance was pivotal in a war in one of the now closed campaigns. My question is, is there any mechanic to counterbalance this effect?

I'm enjoying pondering the implications of this complex and deep rules system. Thank you for putting it together.
- Alex

By John D Berg (Kerg) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 11:59 am: Edit

Hi Alex,

Well I am the designer and i am afraid I didnt place in any note--grin.

While the idea of ship maintinence was at one time discussed it proved to be too much complication for too little gain. GC system is really very large. Such a macro scale game tends to bog down VERY quickly any time things must be done for individual ships.

In some games I have run there were 2000 to 3000 ships, a record keeping nightmare for maintinence.

Yes the GM plot it all by hand. I have seen some computer programs that can plot SQ and even id any encounters, but none of them can interpt the complex orders that are sometimes issued by commanders.

While fleet density is important it is all relative since BPVs are used. If u are a "lite" fleet and spend 2000EPV on the same number of ships ur enemy spent 2500 points, then the question is 'to what advanatge did u place your 500EPV'?

Also special rules can sometimes balance out a navy that is really low density.

thanks for the q

jberg
(Kerg)

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 12:01 pm: Edit

I am a player.

My presumption is that the MM fleet provides the mechanism for maintenance for active fleets (and other things).

It is pretty much by hand. Yes, it gets unwieldy and complex. I take it for granted the amount of work that the GM's do. (I hope they understand that my empire is the most important one! SMILE)

You are describing the "snow ball" effect. It helps to determine the winner. In WW II, the US out produced the Axis powers toward the end, an imbalance as you say, enabling a victory. In U3, there were a lot of snow ball powers. They were almost evenly divided among two great alliances (and fighting each other.) Depending on which side you talked to, you would get a different opinion about who would eventually win. U2 was becoming the same way. Can you blame the players for choosing a side in an attempt to gain an advantage?

In U4 and U5, the starting point is really small empires and small empires respectively. There are no obviously large empires at the moment (though to become obviously large is the goal!)

U4 is harder for the GM (a double blind map), but more challenging for exploration and conquest as far as the players are concerned.

U5 is challenging as well, as most empires are roughly the same size. The traditional power house empires (FED, Klingon) could be conquered by their neighbors. I think the first turn involved a lot of negotiating.

John

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 06:06 pm: Edit

When actual trying to run a GC game the GM first thought should RUN, FAR and FAST.
What John and Mike have done is place fleet maintenance in the cilivan realm of the game. Your MM Trade Hex & base working fleet units act as the general fleet resourse and the uncommitted F-L act as the supply ships that meet your sq in the out hexes This plus the varient freighters take a great deal of bookkeeping out of the game and permits the GM to get a turn out at least once every 4-6 months.
(hint john)instead of every 6-8 months 20 empires is a lot of paperwork.
Or if you realy think it needs maintences then I suggest that 5% of fleet value would be about right.
GC is in someways a outline of how to run a campaign with you adding thoses favors that suit you and your players.
In a post 205 game I ran we had a d100 chart for special events on contacting a new world everything from found intact base roll D6 to determine to rejuv drug located here add 50bpv to value of planet.
There was also a per term chart with such thing as 2X ship from home empire try to collect taxes, to Starship disapears.
good luck

in U5 the LYRANS have already talked now it a point of the KOL hearing the thunder

By Alex Aminoff (Aaminoff) on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 03:10 pm: Edit

> the "snow ball" effect. It helps to determine the winner.

Ah, I see. So a game of GC could be imagined as a race between snowballs, with the addition that you can try to militarily hamper the leaders.

> density is all-important... is there any mechanic to counterbalance this effect?

To answer my own question, it looks like a lot of mechanics (which do not exist in F&E) help with this. The AM rule lets you assemble multiple squadrons and have them fight together. Or you can use a WS to wear down the dense enemy fleet before fighting it...

> avoid the disaster (or local minimum as some might label it) than 8 and 9 major systems are in the rules

Why is 8 & 9 a local minimum? Because of the E1.15 MM income cap? Is the idea that once you reach 10 systems the military income is high enough that 10% is more than 35% of the income at the 7 system level?

I also have some specific rules questions:

Everyone seems to be confused about the MM. I'm no exception. So rule E2.40 says that MM ships do not count towards the MM budget if they are in this or that. As far as I can tell, the only place an MM ship can be if it is to generate income is the SR. Is that correct?

Is it true that MM ships can only be in one of the following 4 states: working pool, SR, SD, loaned to military? It looks like that is exactly what E2.10 says.

In the OMA section there are rules for surveying a hex without doing MRR on it. But you can not do MRR on a surveyed hex. So is it in general not advantageous to survey hexes, in order to keep them available for MRR?

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 04:37 pm: Edit

The 4 states are simular to
military aux ships Transfered to military
WF ships committed to maintening your inferstrucer
SD a form of placing ship in sq and assigned tasked (ie) D1M F-RL lotcated SS34
movement RX as required
repair any damaged ships that arrive

SR this is the one that creates income based on the bpv total

technical you can survey a hex such as new planet found XX77 OMA starts VV77 thus to incorperate the new system you must survey the OMA hexes.

In RB survey hexes can start MRR