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I agree.

But We need a reason. eVulcans would not of themselves look on other races as equals.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 12:15 am: Edit

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Quote:

But We need a reason. eVulcans would not of themselves look on other races as equals.

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By Clell Flint (Clell) on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 09:59 am: Edit

Seems to me if you ran the EVulcans along the lines of the Roman Empire it would work pretty well. They conquer people to "civilize" them. Over time conquered areas get fully integrated into the Empire and become citizens. Under this scenario I would have them intervene on Earth during the era of the Roman Empire because they feel the mindset of those humans is closest to being correct.

Oh, yes and the Vulcan Empire isn't Evil, they are just trying to bring "civilization" to the galaxy.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 10:42 am: Edit

Well if the eVulcans develop the same house system they could have a major civil war, many house fighting against each other, in course of things one house makes contact and "enrols" Earth and Alpha Century into its forces. At this time it has been pushed off Vulcan and in dire straights. In the war Humans/Alpha Centurians rise to prominence, as well Earth becomes the home base for the house's forces. As the house's fortune's rise so does Earth's. The humans bring in the other major races, as recognise the value of the other races. Eventually this House "wins" the war. The eVulcan's empire is in tatters, with the triumphant house and their multi-racial forces take over the other races value is driven home to the eVulcans, and the various race move into the power vacuum left by the depredation of the war.
This will allow for the eVulcans to accept the various races, and making Earth the home for Starfleet since it is the military capital for the House that takes control of the Empire.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Over the weekend I was thinking this could explain the "Terran" design for Imperial Ships, as the remnant eVulcan house retreats to its Earth territory. They work with Humans to build a new fleet and the new design is a Human one. The Federation CA, while this house is building the remaining houses continue the war over Vulcan. The "Earth" house then attacks the other house’s off Vulcan territories, picking up the other Federation founding races, before moving on to Vulcan engaging the remaining eVulcan houses fleets, which are updated Vulcan early years models, that have been mostly shattered by years of civil war. The victorious house transfers the Imperial capital to Earth, for a few reasons, 1) it’s better defended, 2) Vulcan is scarred from years of war, 3) It is the HQ for the Fleet, and the Emperor wants to stay close the Fleet power base, 4) The economic situation is much better on Earth, no war fought here.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 10:17 am: Edit

So I've been dealing with hectic work and life issues of late, and haven't been able to follow this. I skimmed through the thread this morning and think that the general framework has been agreed upon (which John Trauger nicely summarized a page or so back).

I realize there's a lot of hashing out of the history and details left, but is there a 'way forward' from this point at the moment? I would submit that there's enough 'set' currently to start work on the 'SFB/Fed Commander/F&E side' (ie, the 'wargames') while the Prime Directive side is what needs the most work. And my guess is that the history/details will eventually fall to a couple of specific people once things have coalesced a bit further.

I don't have any specific comments on what's been said. As mentioned previously, I'm far more interested in the 'Reflection Early Years through General War' than anything that happened 'pre Y0'. I'm happy to work on timelines, scenarios, etc once we're at that stage.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Looking back on this some, I don't see why we have to say that the Federation unfied designs are "human". The "human" designs were the OCL and Pol (and WDN/WCA/WCL/WDD/WFF). The unified designs (saucers and such) were based on diversified development. Assuming that, by the time the unified designs were being created, and that the member races were now fairly equal, then the same member races are present under the EmoVulcan's leadership to end up with basically the same designs.

Given that, we don't need the Terrans in charge. So, I don't think we need to explain how the Terrans coopted the EmoVulcans, but rather we simply need to explain how the EmoVulcans were able to modulate their specist views to the point that they are willing to accept other races as equals (or close enough) and are able to live with a culture-centric view rather than a species-centric view.

To do that should be fairly simple. In that case, it is simply a matter of the EmoVulcans being willing, in the beginning, to allow other species to create their own "minor houses". (As was mentioned above.) This means they operate under the patronage of a major house, and are therefore in a rather tenuous position. (I.e. this keeps them from doing something outrageously stupid.) At some point they prove themselves and are able to become a major house in their own right. Perhaps it wasn't even the humans that were first, but maybe the Andorians. Then the humans accomplished it. By the time the Orions are discovered, they were powerful enough to join as a major house (or houses). And some species remain as minor houses.

Because of all of this, the EmoVulcans themselves are changed to where they are no longer as specist as they originally were. Sure, there are specist elements in all of the members, but they are now just fringe troublemakers. The members in general now just work toward the ImperialFed goals.

Or, we can just change it from the beginning. One result of the swapping of the Romulans and Vulcans is that the EmoVulcans are not some persecuted minority. Therefore, they do not need to develop the pathology seen in the historical Romulans. Likewise, they are not isolated from other intelligent species, so the EmoVulcans are much more comfortable with the idea of other species being located so closely. Instead, they can simply focus on pulling in willing candidates and subverting or subborning resistant candidates.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 02:48 pm: Edit

That works.

But it never hurts to have a conflict-ridden founding to provide scenario fodder.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Oh, but that is built in!

Remember, these are Houses in conflict! I figure you will get plenty of chances for inter-House conflict. The most likely reason (as someone mentioned above) for a new contact to be organized into a minor House is because the major House recruiting them is in a seriously bad way. That alone should provide several scenarios.

Then, I can't imagine everyone joins *that* easily. Sure, by the time of the General War, everyone gets along fine (or as fine as they ever will in the ImperialFederation), but there is still plenty of room for conflict. I imagine more than one new member went through a civil war over joining.

But even if there was no outrageous conflict in the creation of the ImperialFederation, they are going to be at war with *someone* for most of their history. From their wars with the Kzinti, Klingons, Gorns, and LogRomulans, they should be able to provide more than enough scenarios just doing that.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 03:26 pm: Edit

One other thought on why the LogRomulans need the Klingons ...

During the Early Years, the LogRomulans will have extremely powerful ships. The Warp-Refitted War Eagle and Early War Eagle will have plasma-Rs and will be able to pretty much crush anyone that tries to attack them. A Federation YCA trying to fight an Early WE is going to be in for a world of hurt. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the LogRomulans don't worry about continuously improving their ships at the rate that the ImperialFeds (and others) do. (This also explains why the ImperialFeds push towards the Klingons on Kzintis. Fighting the LogRomulans is just too painful for now.)

Even during the Middle Years, the ImperialFeds will have problems fighting WVLs, WEs, and BHs. It is a fairer fight, but it is still a difficult task. It is pretty easy for the LogRomulans to remain complacent about the strength of their fleet when standard WVLs, WEs, and BHs will keep the ImperialFeds at bay.

It is only when the ImperialFeds start implementing their war refits and LogRomulan spies start seeing the ImperialFeds wartime designs that they realize they are in serious trouble and don't have time to recover. At that point, a Smarba treaty for their "missing" improvements becomes a huge necessity. And the Gorns can't help because they are way behind, too.

(Another advantage of Smarba for the LogRomulans is political: It allows them to get into much closer relations with someone who is an ally now, but is potentially an enemy in the future. This lets them do massive research of the Klingons at the Klingon's invitation! Plus, the treaty is fairly 'cost-less' for the LogRomulans. Whether they work closely with the Klingons or not, they need the technology and they are going to have to fight the ImperialFeds anyway. It is a very risk-free deal with huge upside. Seems pretty logical to me ...)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 10:43 am: Edit

Another thought on the ImpFed...

Perhaps during the beginning, the EmoVulcans did try (and succeed) in keeping the position of power in their Vulcan Empire. They still brought on the other races as they were found and willing, but always kept them in a secondary position. Say, better than a "subject race", but less than full equals. Everyone had their own fleets, to an extent, as this spread out the costs, but the EmoVulcans were still in charge. Because of their technological advantage (e.g. Ph-1s), the EmoVulcans were able to maintain this arrangement for decades.

Until tactical warp was discovered. By the humans! Being a secondary race, this information quickly leaked out, and all of the other space-faring races (including the EmoVulcans) quickly began a crash course in refitting their existing fleets. This resulted in the same W-era designs seen in Module Y1 and Y2. However, in this case, they really did fight each other. A lot. This degenerated into a full multi-sided civil war that lasted for (I don't know, pick a number that works) years.

The war lasted as long as it did because no one could gain an advantage. Someone (to be named later, preferably not human or Vulcan; maybe Orion) managed to start the diplomacy to begin the formation of a new Federated Imperium, built on the foundation of the Vulcan Empire. The general system works the same, except that the Houses became non-race specific. And any house could rise to be a major house, regardless of race. Part of this overall effort was the creation of the unified fleet, and the various "national" fleets were slowly disbanded.

There would be lingering resistance to the Imperium over the years, lasting until the Y150s. In fact, the entire purpose of the Y102 border declaration was to let other empires know where the Imperium would contain itself until it could get its houses in order. Their neighbors misinterpreted the declaration as a permanent border declaration. In fact, it was merely a declaration of what the Imperium was willing to fight for right now, not a permanent border. This was discovered by everyone when the Imperium attacked the Kzinti in Y167 (or whatever the right date is), starting what would eventually be known as the General War.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 08:33 pm: Edit

Here is my idea for an alternative universe: What if the Kzintis and Lyrans got along and never eliminated their genetic cousins the Carnivons. They also get friendly with the ISC cat people (Rovillians?) and RYN of Omega. So you have a militant Fed/Klingon-Hydran/Borak Vudar Empire fighting for survival against a Cat empire on the West side and on the other a Fed-Gorn-Romulan empire trying to hold off the Interstellar Cat empire. Aurora was in Kzinti space so the FRA is the Cat republic allied with the RYN and Maesron. So basically it is the Furry (mostly cat) races vs the non Furry races. Paravians would get along with Gorn, more worried about being eaten by the cats. That would be the other point of contention between Empires, sentient eaters versus non-sentient eaters. I think with a militant Fed/Rom/Kli empire the Tholians would never get a foothold.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:02 pm: Edit

The core premise of a Kzinti/Lyran/carnovon unity is interesting. It completely changes the Eastern side of the map, especially for the Klinks.

Trying to tie in the ISC and Omega felines is where it gets dicey. The ISC went undiscovered for a rather long time and there's a dead zone between Alpha and Omega, which permits no real contact between the two regions even after the General War.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:05 pm: Edit

My thought were that the ISC would be latter, and the Omega thing would be from a cat dominated Aurora getting brought to the Omega alla the FRA.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 11:23 pm: Edit

I seriously hope that any efforts in the Reflections Universe can leave Alpha in Alpha and Omega in Omega. There is enough diversity and choice within each sphere to not require such heavy crossovers.

Do note that in the base Reflections Universe postulated earlier in this thread (I have no idea which archive would hold it) it is expected that the much more hostile Federal Imperium (or whatever you want to call it) prevents the Kzinti (and by extension, Lyrans) from eliminating the Carnivon. Therefore, the Carnivon are *already* a part of the Reflections Universe. Also, it is expected that with cooperative Gorn and Romulan empires, the ISC would be found far earlier and would end up being a much more 'conventional' empire (meaning they quickly get over the whole "warp equals peace" and "everyone else is nuts" bugaboos).

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 06:17 pm: Edit

I have an idea for an alternate timeline (that I moved to a new topic under F&E).

Garth L. Getgen

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 10:36 pm: Edit

My personal rule-of-thumb for an alternate history scenario:

The change in the timeline must flow from one single decision point, one flap of the butterfly wing.

The "City on the Edge of Forever" scenario can't be used for obvious reasons, however it is a good example to follow: the death of one person changed all future history.

For the Vulcan Empire project, this is pretty easy to find: let's say Surak is killed before his movement reaches the tipping point...perhaps he dies in a traffic accident.

Vulcan still has a civil war between the logical and warlike factions, but an earlier Surak death means the peaceful faction is not as strong as in real life. The warlike guys win. The peaceful faction leaves and founds the Romulan Republic.

The warlike Vulcans, however, continue to fight among themselves for 2,000 years (much as the Romulans do) and don't get their act together until the Old Kings leave.

When the Old Kings leave in -Y25, the Vulcans then start expanding. First stop: Earth, where they start using humans (just recovering from WW3) as a subject race. Using the enthusiastic humans as starship crews and ground forces, the Vulcans defeat the Andorians in war, but the Andorians accept a peace treaty that allows them to be useful warrior vassals of the Vulcans.

The Vulcans, with human and Andorian soldiers and starship crews, swiftly conquer the Rigelians.

By the General War era, the Vulcan Empire encompasses what we come to know as the Federation, as well as some territory conquered from the Kzintis and Gorns. It is not as "evil" as the Nazi-like Terran Empire in the Paramount Mirror Universe, but it is much more forceful and aggressive than the Federation we know. Thus setting the place for a massive war with the Klingons.

That's how I conceive it anyway.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 11:04 pm: Edit

John,

Yes, that is pretty much the outline of the Reflection Universe project (from a Imperial perspective). Obviously, there is the whole development path of the "logical" Romulans, but that works out pretty well and pretty easily.

Then, Steve did want to put some extra twists in it, but all flow from that one change you mentioned. The main changes are: Paravians are not dead, but now take the role of the former Orion pirates. They operate differently (as they are pure raiders, not economic pirates like the Orions), but fill the same role. The Orions are just members of the Imperium (willing ones at that). Plus the Carnivons would have a presence, too.

My biggest thing on the Imperials is that, during the assimilation of the various other species, that it is not master/slave or lord/vassal, but that all are members of the existent House system. Some may be "more equal than others", but it is not a pure Vulcan Imperium, but a multi-species Imperium.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 11:11 pm: Edit

On the "logical" Romulans, I figure they would expand relatively slowly, as they don't want to be found by the Vulcans for as long as possible. Therefore, they don't expand as quickly as the "real" Romulans would have had they had warp as early as the "logical" Romulans. The meet and befriend the Gorn and avoid the Imperium as much as possible.

Also, I figure they get complacent during the Middle Years such that by the time of the burgeoning General War, they are a step behind others in their technology. This way they still end up with a Smarba treaty with the Klingons (who are desperate for any help against the very aggressive Imperials).

Note that, unlike the decisions Steve did make, none of these "logical" Romulan ideas were decided on. These are just my ideas that I think fit for them. It lets them work with a minimum of changes.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, February 06, 2012 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Let me try and get my thoughts on this setting down in a more organized manner to hopefully make myself clearer.

First, let me do a little nomenclature first. "logRomulans" is short for "Logical Romulans", and means the followers of Surak that left Vulcan and became the Romulans. "emoVulcans" is short for "Emotional Vulcans", and are the ones who stayed behind and became the Vulcans. "ImpFed" is short for "Imperial Federation" and is the much more militaristic replacement for the Federation. Any reference to "Vulcans", "Romulans", and "Federation" are the "real" versions. Now that that is out of the way ...

On the big picture, I don't think that trying to have an Imperial Federation as a emoVulcan run empire that uses others as slaves or subjects is terribly interesting. Really, that is how all of the other empires work, and it is repetitive and boring. Instead, I think they need to be more egalitarian, where all of the member species can contribute, excel, rise, and lead. I believe this is far preferable for several reasons, the main two being, 1) that is what was shown on the inspiration episode, and 2) it makes things more fun to have an egalitarian "evil" empire. There is no "Vulcan Empire" or "Terran Empire". There is no "master species", just multiple species working (and fighting) with each other over time. (That is why I refer to the empire as the Imperial Federation.)

Expanding off that second point, it is not that hard to achieve. While it could be presented as a change in the approach of the emoVulcans (they started out intending to subjugate, but changed to inclusion over time), I think it works better and helps the story more to have them be inclusive from the beginning. Perhaps they impose some kind of "probationary" term on new members (heck, even the Federation does that) so they can prove themselves trustworthy. Regardless, the emoVulcans understand that working as a larger team will achieve their goals more quickly than trying to keep everyone under their thumb will.

I think the primary mistake when looking at this setting is to just directly transpose the "personality" of the Vulcans and Romulans. I don't think the emoVulcans would necessarily be *just like* the Romulans. Likewise, the logRomulans would be noticeably different from the Vulcans. It is just a result of how they developed in their different locations and with their different histories. By exploiting these differences, we can explain things that seem incongruous more easily.

For the emoVulcans, the biggest difference is the loss of their paranoia. The Romulans were, as a culture, heavily scarred by their long, difficult journey, and by the losses suffered along the way. It made them suspicious of others, and reinforced any inclination toward species superiority. Without that experience, the emoVulcans are able to be more open towards others and more willing to interact. They are also able to direct their feelings of superiority from their species to their culture or empire. So, instead of being "specists" (or however we should say "racist" when referring to a species), they are simply nationalists.

By pushing this change through, it really allows the emoVulcans to help create a much more dynamic, flexible, egalitarian, and effective empire. The ImpFed is then able to more fully take advantage of the capabilities of all of the members in the empire in ways that even the Klingons cannot do.

For the logRomulans, the key is to remember that scarring mentioned earlier. The logRomulans *did* suffer all of that difficulty and travail, and so they have been scarred by it. As a result, the logRomulans get that paranoia and distrust mentioned before. While they don't necessarily succumb to the specism that the Romulans did, they are distrustful of others, and much more cautious in their expansion and inter-empire relations. It also explains why they have a cloak - it allows them to move more freely without being seen or interacting. It gives them more control over when an encounter takes place, and where. It is a natural expression of their culture after their long, hard journey back into space.

Using this approach gives a setting where the ImpFed is not just a rehashed Klingon empire, where the emoVulcans are not just Romulans, and where the logRomulans are not just Vulcans in fancy threads.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 01:46 am: Edit

One interesting point of comparison for this imperial Federation might be the Imperium, out in the Triangulum Galaxy.

Out there, the Imperium is divided into "regular" Imperial territory, ruled directly by the Imperator (or rather, by the immense state bureaucracy behind the throne) and patrolled by the main Imperium Fleet; and a half-dozen or more "autonomous provinces", which each have their own internal cultural, political and military setup distinct from the core Imperium proper (and with their own provincial fleets to defend their interests). It's hard to make out the internal borders on the map shown in the print edition of E2, but the pdf on e23 makes things a bit clearer.

On the one hand, the Imperium and its autonomous provinces are all ostensibly on the same side; they all use the same starship designs and technologies, all claim to inherit the mantle of the same precursor empire (which had uplifted many of the Imperium's member planets into space back in the day) and all at least nominally rally to the Imperator in the face of any common threats (such as the rival Frigian Kingdom; run by a species that had once played a major role in the Old Empire military, but who were persuaded to take up the rebel cause in the devastating civil war that brought the precursor realm crashing down a thousand years prior to Y1).

In practice, however, the Imperium is far from unified. On a good day, the provinces only accept those orders given by the Imperator which they would be inclined to follow in any event (i.e. if it furthers their own interests); on a bad day, one or more of them can either vie for outright secession, or get torn apart in a biiter internal conflict (which the wider Imperium may or may not need to intervene in). Indeed, one former provincial power, the Gorthang, managed to win its independence from the Imperium, before joining a neighbouring emergent power (the Quegan Matriarchy) in a new Star League.


Going back to the Reflectionverse Alpha Octant for a moment; what if several regions of the imperial Federation were similarly divvied up into such autonomous provinces? Orion could be a good candidate, but other worlds like Cygnus, Tellar Prime and Arcturia could themselves become provincial capitals of such regional powers. Like the Imperium in M33, the imperial Feds could have a policy of using a common starship design for each territory (in that there could be minor yards at each of the provincial capitals, as well as the full fleet yard at the imperial capital) but still have a large portion of the map be "Imperial" territory.


Speaking of capitals, I kind of like the idea of Mars, rather than Earth (or Vulcan or Andor) being used as the imperial seat of government. By the modern era, Mars is as much a major industrial planet as Earth is on the Federation and Empire map; plus the "Martian Imperium" has a nice ring to it.


Oh, to go back up to M33 for a minute; one of the mid-tier powers out there in the historical timeline is the Human Republic; a lost colony caravan of pre-warp humans granted warp technology through a pact with the elder Helgardian Protectorate. Historically, the sublight caravan was sucked into a galaxy-hopping anomaly in -Y12, over a decade before First Contact had been established; however, should reflection-Earth's future history be altered, would that have any effect on whether or not any such caravans were being launched from Earth in the first place? (In other words, would there be no Triangulum Human Republic in the Reflectionverse?)

And if the humans who would have found themselves in M33 ended up staying on Earth instead, could the minds which cooked up toys like, say, Powered Battle Armor have applied some of their ideas for Terran use? (Only one other Triangulum power is noted as using PBAs, but it's not clear who came up with it first; but it is noted that the Human version of the technology is far more capable a system.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 01:39 pm: Edit

I doubt the Reflections Imperial Federation would be able to use PBA.

As for having the ImpFed be fractious, they inherently are, but it doesn't work that way. The problem is that the main players are all in the single capital hex, not spread out through Federation space. As such, it isn't conducive to such geographically based power struggles. Rather, you simply get non-geographic plays for power.

Not that you cannot have civil wars break out on occasion. It just won't be geographically based, like a civil war in Lyran or Kzinti space would be. It would be non-localized. (Which is, actually, a good thing. It provides a difference with other empires, and lets the battles take place anywhere, instead of along defined geographic lines.

[Yes, I know "geographic" is the wrong word. It should be something like "astrographic". But, since SFU strategic space is, for all intents and purposes, two-dimensional, it works well enough.]

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 03:37 am: Edit

In that case, what if there was to be a divide between the "old planets" in the core region and the "new planets" encountered during the imperial expansion?

Certain major planets encountered along the way could perhaps be granted "march fief" status, as a way of helping the locals buy in to the ImpFed (while putting more of an economic onus on the newcomers to pay more than their fair share in taxes to cover the costs of their agreed-upon territories); while the hexes not handed over to such march worlds could be incorporated as part of the wider imperial state itself.

Orion would have been a march area when it was first contacted; it could choose to jealously guard its prerogative even as the ImpFed expanded around it, or perhaps it may change its term to something else denoting its status. Meanwhile, once the Kzintis are driven back to their side of the Reflectionverse equivalent of the Border Declaration (should there be one), the Cygnans would be candidates for march fief status; perhaps handed one or more of the "Zone of Influence" provinces to run while the core ImpFed integrates the rest.

(I'd note that even combined, the various autonomous provinces in the M33 Imperium still cover a smaller portion of territory than the "core" Imperial state they are a part of; though what makes some planets autonomous and others fully integrated subjects of the Imperium state is not quite clear.)


This would then let you have the best of both worlds. The "old planets" (Earth, Vulcan etc) could have the kind of non-geographic disputes you mention within the bulk of ImpFed territory, while still having the opportunity to "intervene" should a given "new planet" march fief (Orion, Cygnus etc) decide to go off-reservation.

And it would still be different from how the Lyrans and Kzintis do things; if anything, it may be as if the Klingons allowed a handful of smaller satrapies in pockets of the Empire (say, a "Dunkar Kingdom", "Hillidarian Satrapy", "Slirarian Protectorate" and so forth) instead of the tightly-controlled, integrated Empire (and that one not-so-small Vudar Enclave they pretended not to end up with) in the regular SFU timeline.


(When I say "province", not all of them would literally have to be based on pre-existing provincial boundaries; some autonomous sub-states could be one-hex areas focused on a given planet, while others could be spread over more than one "historical" multi-hex province.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 01:53 am: Edit

I still dunno. I doubt the Orions would work, as Steve has already said they would be enthusiastic members (given the much more militaristic outlook). Don't know about the Cygnans.

But my main point is still that the ImpFed needs to be an empire built with multiple basically equal species, instead of the overused master/slave relationships seen in most other empires. The exact form can be argued over if the project ever advances. (I am partial to a Romulan-style house system modified to allow multiple species, but that is just me.)

By Mark S. Hoyle (Resartus) on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 09:36 am: Edit

In a militaristic empire, wouldn't fiefdoms work better, if you want a powerful central government ---

Seems a bit on the Lyran model, but with different species ---

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Well, it depends.

Again, assuming that the emoVulcans are similar to the Romulans (which caveats I have noted elsewhere), it would seem reasonable to see some kind of House system used. It a way, it works like fiefdoms, but is also quite different.

My point about "geography" is that most of the empires are highly "geographic". That is how almost all of them are organized. However, if you use the House system, you still get all of those internal divisions and conflicts, but it isn't based on geography. Rather, it is based on holdings, which can all be mixed up. (I.e. a give House may control all or most of a colony, but it doesn't control the entire section of space around that colony. The next colony over could be a completely different House.)

This gives a much more dynamic situation. (Which already exists in the Romulans, but since the logRomulans will not have that system, it is a transference, not an addition.) It also differs quite nicely with the Lyrans, Klingons, and Kzinti.

As for a strong central government, I don't know that you want that for the ImpFed. If it was a strong government, it will likely be pretty effective. And as aggressive as they are, they would do a lot of damage. Instead, I would imagine they need to be somewhat ineffective, in order to hold them back. That way they will grow in parallel to what the Federation did, while still being much more aggressive than the Federation.

But again, this is just my view of things. I could be totally wrong.