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	Archive through July 04, 2009	25		07/04 07:36pm

After giving a lot of thought to this, my opinion is to leave the Nazis out of this completely. Loren brought up an excellent point about many people possibly being terribly offended by such a product. The Nazis were just plain evil in reality. I know I would not buy such a thing nor would I encourage any students in our gaming group to buy something like that.

Military simulations (wargames) are different in that they attempt to stick to a military perspective and challenge players with strategic and/or tactical considerations. This is different. It must, of necessity, postulate a history for an explanation.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 07:10 pm: Edit

I think the real harm would be done with Hitler's Nazis. If Hitler is killed and there is a new leader which offeres peace and stops the holocause, then it won't be offensive at all because they only share a name. Indeed, it could be done so that the name changes rather quickly to something else.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Nazis in space? Been done to death already. Yawn!!

If we are going to postulate an alternate history where the Romulans remain on Vulcan and contact humanity, then there needs to be something about humanity that causes the Romulans to do something other than just say, "Oh cool! Look at the new slave race!" The only way I see that happening is for the Romulans to either like what they see in humanity, and co-opt Earth, or fear the potential of Earth as a future enemy and co-opt humanity. I think that a "We like them." scenario will be easier to construct than a "We fear them but don't just nuke them while we have the chance." scenario.

The question then becomes one of finding a time period where the broad stroke of accepted norms in the behavior of nations matches well with the Romulan world-view. And this needs to be a time-frame that a large portion of the target audience can relate to.

In SFU history, when do the Vulcans / Romulans first achieve interstellar flight, and when do the losers in the philosophical fight leave to go East? Are these dates early enough that the Romulans could have arrived during the era of the Roman Empire? Since the Romulans of TOS were built with a very obvious Roman veneer, that might make a very good match philosophically. Roman history is also something that should connect to a large component of the gaming community. I just don't know if the dates work out.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 07:33 pm: Edit

They Romulans left Vulcan in -Y2230. So roughly 100BC. This would be the Mid to Late Roman Republic.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Ah, but from an alien perspective, would the Han Dynasty of the same era not seem as viable an option?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Don't want to belabor the obvious but wouldn't the Romulans and Romans find kinship?
regards
Stacy

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Hmmm, actually, Michael Bennett's point makes me pause and think. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with 'Nazis won with Romulan help'.

I'm generally going to stay out of most of the setup, but I'm not sure there really needs to be any contact between Humans and Romulans much earlier than occurred between Humans and Vulcans.

If Romulans replace Vulcans, couldn't it be possible that they would take longer to get into space due to planetary wars on 'Vulcan'? They might still contact Earth a bit sooner than before but they don't necessarily have to be much more advanced, and would see the value in influencing a race (humans) that still hasn't fully outgrown its own warlike tendencies.

Alternatively, the Romulans could crush Earth without 'helping' the Nazis and you just get the Romulan empire more or less replacing the Federation.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Yeah, I'd be fine with the Romulans showing up right after WW3 and from there different people were in charge, producing the future Terran Empire.

The one event can still be Surak dying in a traffic accident.

By Charles Chapel (Ctchapel) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 11:25 pm: Edit

To address the NAZI connection:

First, that would make the module unsellable in Europe. They have very restrictive laws about how and where NAZI can be used.

Second, NAZI is a trademarked term by TSR when the made the Indiana Jones RPG. That is now in the hands of Has-BORG, excuse me, Hasbro.

Sounds like Lawyers need to be brought in if NAZIs are chosen.

Charles Chapel

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 01:03 am: Edit

Um, yeah, Hasbro can try to trademark Nazi but that's not goona stand up well.

The Europe thing is another matter and a very good point. Still, I'm sure refering to them historically shouldn't be a problem, however, elevating them to a successful regime might not. But then who is to say that once Hitler is killed that the Nazi party would continue (maybe as a means to politically distance themselves from Hitler they would change the name).

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 03:03 am: Edit

Would it not be enough to simply say that in the Mirror Universe Earth had been conquered/unified my a militarist tyrant and leave it at that? No need to mention a specific historical group or event... lost in the tapes you know.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 03:09 am: Edit

I'm coming to this conversation late, but I wanted to share this map I came up with ages ago (2001-2002 I think) when the whole Mirror Universe topic was stirring once before: Looking Glass Map

This was done a long time ago, and I think much of the discussion that lead to this arrangement is lost to time (I don't remember much of it). It suggests some different ideas than than those currently at play in this discuss, so please take it for what its worth. But, I thought I'd share - maybe it will be useful in sparking an idea or two.

By Charles Chapel (Ctchapel) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 04:23 am: Edit

Loren

It's not that Hasbro can "try" to trademark NAZI, it's a case that they already have. When TSR was bought by Wizards of the Coast who then was bought by Hasbro, Hasbro gain all the IP that those companies had. That included the Indiana Jones RPG, which had trademarked NAZI. It's done.

Are you familiar with the computer game called Hearts of Iron? It is produced by Paradox, a Swedish company, and the fine line they have to toe is unreal. Because the NAZI Germany can win if played well, any icongraphy identified with the Party is not allowed by law. Not Swedish law but Germany and most of the EU. This moritorium applies to the boards also because they don't want to be shut down on the grounds of supporting Nationalist Socialist movements.

Freedom of speech and press are true gifts to be thankful for, especially on Independance Day.

Jeremy

Any memory of what Y-year that map was representing?

Charles Chapel

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 09:06 am: Edit

Charles, I think the intent of the map was a period prior to anything like the General War. All of those relatively small states would have either needed to declare nuetrality or form alliances to avoid being crushed when unlimited war hit the Looking Glass.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 11:26 am: Edit

Charles,
I'm not saying Hasbro doesn't believe they have a trademark on Nazi, I'm saying I doubt it will stand against a challenge. I don't know how they managed to get a trademark issued but there are limits to what you can trademark. Perhaps they managed it as an acronymn (which is why you keep spelling it in all caps?). That doesn't give them rights over the word Nazi and more than MacDonalds has rights to control the word MacDonald. You can't trademark actual words except in very narrow ways. (Which is why MacDonalds names things like McMuffin, McCoffee, etc.)
Anyway, Hasbro can't stop anyone from creating a game based on the Nazis except. NAZI as an acronymn may be another matter.

By Reid Hupach (Gwbison) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Its like the Fasa/Ral Partha vs George Lucas case in the 80's.

When Fasa came out with Battledroids (early Btech) Lucas sued them for the word droid claiming he had copywrited it.

Since Fasa was a new company it didn't have alot of excess capitol so Lucas sued them for more than they were worth then just kept delaying the trial until FASA had to settle out of court for a near bankrupting total and change the name to Battletech.

Then since Ral Partha had made the Mini's for the original game Lucas sued them. But since Partha was an older company with deeper pockets they waited it out till it came to court.

Parthas first witness... Issac Asimov, He who first coined the word Droid sometime in the forties.


Partha wins and both Partha and Asimov countersued and put the hurts on Lucas.

Asimovs comment was he really had no desire to sue Lucas but the greedy SOB needed to be taught a lesson.

Trademark Law is very tricky.

What If someone decides to Trademark the word I, do we all have to pay him royalties to talk about ourselves???

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 02:21 pm: Edit

If this goes much further then the topic should move to the Courts thread, but my point is that ADB should have no legal concern with using the term Nazi for a game, but the European and moral concerns are worth noting, and perhaps are persuasive enough to avoid using as a basis for building the alternative history. Ultimately that's up to SVC. So, trademark questions asside, there is good reason to not build too much off of the Nazi regime.

Again, I think it would be perfectly useful to make the historical change happen in the future. Just after WW3 is still in the future and a little before the Vulcans First Contact. The Romulan (non-Surakian) influence on human kind would probably be enough to change the course of history to a far more militaristic future for human kind. After WW3 the past would have little influance on human behavior since socety would be so devistated. So the branch seems pretty obvious. The peaceful Vulcan arrive and humans tend toward their better nature. Romulan warriors arrive and support different up coming leaders who lead humans on a different path (who perhaps model their government on the efficiencies of the Nazi regime... or perhaps on the Roman model. I like the Roman model.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Completely irrelevant copyright discussion aside, I agree with Jeremy and Loren. Just say that the alt-Vulcans helped a militaristic nation-state on Earth gain ascendancy and world-rule. In the larger perspective, it really doesn't matter who. We already know what they need to act like. We even know what we want their symbol to be. We know how their society needs to act. And since it is different than both the Nazis and Soviets, it doesn't matter who the original nation-state was. If we, in fact, use Loren's idea that this happened in the aftermath of WW3, then it isn't either of them, and we don't even have to make one up!

I know: Let's make it so that the name of the chosen nation-state is nameless, but the default Earth language is Mandarin. Make the winners the Chinese. That would make the alternative Earth government work with modern day expectations ...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 04:16 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Freedom of speech and press are true gifts to be thankful for, especially on Independance Day.

---

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Summary points and questions.

Okay, so Earth comes out of WWIII with a unified, militarist government that is friendly to the non-logical Vulcans who still live on Vulcan.

1. What are the non-logical Vulcans being called?
2. The logical Vulcans have fled to Romulus/Remus. Are they being called the Romulans?

Mike West mentioned that we know what the symbol of the Terran Empire will be.

3. Is this the sword through the Earth symbol?
4. Is there any copyright problem with using this symbol?

It seems like a good idea not to make any particular faction on Earth the one that is in control. Keep it ethnic-neutral and unknown. It doesn't matter in game terms anyway.

ADB will be limited as to how many changes can be made to ships.

5. Can "broadbrush" changes be made to existing SSDs (SFB) and ship cards (FC) to take care of this?
For example, for Terran ships, can existing Federation ships be changed enough by something like this:
"To reflect their militaristic philosophy, Terran ships generally have fewer labs and more _____. (power, phasers, whatever is desired)
"Therefore, make these changes to Federation ships to reflect their Terran counterparts:
Frigates - change 1 lab to _____ (Ph-1?) and 1 hull to _____ (Reac).
Destroyers - change 2 labs to _____ and 2 hull to _____.
Cruisers - change 3 labs to _____ and 3 hull to _____.
Dreadnoughts - change 4 labs to _____ and 4 hull to _____."

I'm not necessarily suggesting that changing lab to Ph-1 and hull to Reactor be *THE* change, but can something like this be done to avoid ADB having to make SSDs or ship cards for the entire Terran fleet?

Certainly there would be some Terran ships that might be so unique that they would warrant a completely different SSD or ship card. Perhaps this would also be true for particular ships of other empires (especially the logical Vulcans or Gorns).

Just some ideas to consider.