You guys are going in so many directions at once that I have two choices. Take over the topic or shut it down. I don't want to do either. You have one more chance.

Remember that the whole altverse has to come from ONE change (Surak's tragic accident). You cannot have "Hitler has heart attack" but you could have "EmoVulcans kill Hitler" IF you have a good reason.

Because of the ONE change, there can be no importing souldra as there is nothing that the event on the planet vulcan would do that causes this. Same reason there can be no Vandal. That would be two unrelated changes.

For convenience and clarity, I am using the terms LogRomulans to refer to the logical vulcans who leave their homeworld and found the Romulan empire, and EmoVulcans to refer to the guys who would have been Romulans but are now the rulers of Vulcan and a major part of the Imperialist Federation (which we might call something else later).

I agree, Nazis won't work, but World War I is BORING and NOT MARKETABLE. Maybe Napoleon, maybe Charlemagne, maybe Stalin, maybe Trajan. But not World War I, and not Khan.

This is where you are (even if you don't think so, trust me, you are HERE):

1. Surak dies in tragic accident.

2. Emo-Vulcans (who would have been the Romulans) dominate Planet Vulcan and the Logical-Vulcans leave and go find the planets of Romulus and Remus and found the Romulan Empire. The LogRomulans use the Warbird-series ships, but with warp power.

3. Logical-Romulan Empire replaces Imperialist Romulan empire (not being expansionist, meets Gorns and makes nice, eventually allies against Imperial-Feds). The ISC eventually bumble into the Gorn-LogRomulan groups trading nicely, and consider the Paravians (who are still around) just pirates (and the ISC understands pirates). The ISC do not develop a peacekeeper mentality, but do not ally with the Gorn-LogRoms. The ISC develop the ISC ships we see.

4. Emotional Vulcans send spies to help (Stalin? Napoleon? Charlemagne? Trajan?) take over Earth. Later, we see them form the Imperial Federation. (This consists of the Emotional-Vulcans, the Imperialist-Humans, plus the Andorians and Orions. Those pansy Rigellians and Arcturians will go along with anything, the Alpha-Centauran babes will play along, and the Cygnans would sign onto anything that freed them from the Kzintis.) Imperialist-Federation ships have more guns, fewer labs, basically just getting the wartime refits earlier.

5. With "Imperialist Feds" pushing the Kzintis around, they might have allied with the Klingons (also being shoved around by militant Feds), and the Carnivons are never destroyed.

6. This leaves the Lyrans to ally with the Hydrans (and leaves the Lyrans to find something else to eat at parties).

So, finally, we have the Lyrans, Hydran, Federation, and ISC on one "side" and the Klingons, Kzintis, Gorns, and LogRomulans on the other side.

GO FROM THERE. Any previous experimental diversions did not "make the cut". If you don't like my outline, drop the entire project.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 06:00 pm: Edit

I suggest the non-Logic Vulcans be called Rihansu (from PD Romulans).

I'd suggest that Remus was settled first this time and Romulus is settled second. As such they would be called Remans.

SVC RESPONSE: NO.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 06:28 pm: Edit

I'd go with Stalin myself. Humans of the Napoleonic Era or earlier would likely be too primitive to interest the EmoVulcans as anything but a slave labor force. 20th century Earth would at least be industrialized, and capable of understanding the concepts of space travel.

After Stalin dies, with EmoVulcan guidance the Communist state eventually evolves into a less evil, but still authoritarian, imperialistic, and unifed world government.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 06:34 pm: Edit

I'll say it again go with Romans, Make sense. Rome is popular. Goes well with Romulans.

As for what do the militant Vulcan's call themselves stay with Romulans and make life less confusing. A logical explanation is easily found. Myself I like the idea of Romulan's conquering the galaxy with Legionary storm troopers. No matter who you choose from the 20th century you'll annoy some segment of the world. No one is left that is offended by Romans.

regards
Stacy

By Reid Hupach (Gwbison) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 06:54 pm: Edit

I say why not let the change be that Khan won the genetics war and make that the divergence.

Therefore no nazi problems and since the Ubermen seemed to be from all cultures WHY NOT/

SVC: THAT SHIP HAS SAILED AND WE ARE NOT GOING THIS DIRECTION. KHAN IS NOT WITHIN OUR LICENSE, SO ANY IDEA BASED ON KHAN IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:00 pm: Edit

If the Franchise Khan is out of the question, what about one of the real ones?

Kublai Khan, for example. He was the first Great Khan to also be Emperor of China, and (nominally at least) presided over the largest contiguous empire to have ever existed.

(I say nominally because the more distant Khanates treated him, and subsequent Great Khans, less deferentially than the subordinates of Genghis Khan might have been beforehand. They might not get away with that if he were backed by EmoRomulan support, however.)


Also, what is the motivation behind the ISC allying with the Imperial Federation, rather than with the Gorns and LogRomulans? (Given the common issue of Paravian infestation, I'd thought there'd be at least some motivation behind avoiding the kind of open war between each side that would benefit the space-birds.)

War or no war, what kind of spoiler role would the Paravians be playing to either side? (Do they have a long-term 'jihad' planned, the way the historical Omega-Paravians do, or are they 'just' sticking with raiding?)


As an aside, if the only point of divergence is the earlier death of Surak, what is stopping the Sun Snake from destroying Paravia in this timeline?

(If the Souldra are out because of the post-Surak butterfly effect not reaching the Void, what is keeping the Paravians in?)

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Maybe the emo-Vulcans show up at the very end of the Roman Republic and, either intentionally or accidentally, prevent the assassination of Julius Caesar? The emo-Vulcans provide Rome with advanced technology that lets them rapidly subjugate the world, with Julius as the first Emperor of Terra. In return, the Romans provide the emo-Vulcans with a steady supply of willing, militaristic, organized, etc volunteers to serve as troops for emo-Vulcan conquests of other worlds. Perhaps postulate that the wars needed to consolidate the emo-Vulcan hold on power at home resulted in massive casualties, and they need willing manpower reserves to further their conquests? This arrangement eventually grows into a partnership of the two groups, with the emo-Vulcans as the "brains" and humans as the "brawn" of the operation. Having humans as the primary warrior class of the empire gives you an empire that retains many of the surface characteristics of Star Fleet (majority human starship crews, ships based on Terran designs, etc).

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:39 pm: Edit

I'm with the Eugenics war. They are the only ones technologically advanced enough and Imperially agressive enough to make the cut.

SVC: DEAD HORSE. LICENSE WON'T ALLOW IT.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:45 pm: Edit

For an "Imperial Federation" CA, how about this?

1. Assume that the use of low-slung warp nacelles was developed early on, increasing the firing arcs of the side P-1 to LS and RS.
2. Because of (1), there is no rear-firing phaser refit.
3. Replace 4xLab with 2xAPR and 2xTrans.
4. Replace 2xFhull with 2xP-1 (1xLS, 1xRS).
5. Add 6 BPs, with total crew remaining the same. They replace scientists from the deleted labs.
6. The plus refit stays as is.

Thoughts?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:48 pm: Edit

I would expect any mention of the Eugenics War would waken the Paramount Gorilla.
regards
Stacy

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:50 pm: Edit

I'm for anything that happens after now. There is a pile of questions that come with changing any real history. Changing real history will only invite historical "experts" to argue what the alternatives are. It's perhaps a petty thing to do so, but I've read discussions on revisionist fiction and... well, some people are most adamant about it. If the early future is changed, no one can argue with that.

Changing real history is a facinating thing to explore, but I fear it's going to be a can-o-worms over the criticism it may invite.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:00 pm: Edit

Gary,

Regarding the Paravians, if you assume the Gorns and Vulcans meet up before the Sun Snake event occurs, Vulcans could influence events in some manner. Mediation attempts, discovering the Sun Snakes and thus arguing against quarantine, or at least suggesting the Gorns leave a vessel to prevent the potential destruction of a quarantined world.

If possible, this could hook into similar events to CL#28 resulting in Gorns being kicked out of their territory and (in this timeline) being given refuge by the Vulcans. However, I'm unsure whether that is still 'within parameters' as Steve described above. Either way, Paravian raiders provide something new for the ISC to fight.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:23 pm: Edit

LogRoms would want to "prevent Paravian raids" not "hunt Paravians down and drive them back to their planet". Thus, defenses against Paravians, not war to drive them out of space.

ISC would have trading rivalties with well-connected LogRoms and Gorns. (Putting ISC on the other side would unbalance things. They cannot be on Gorn-LogRom side. Forms an impossible power block against Feds. having alternating north-south bands of this side/that side creates strategic dynamic.

By Ron Schanlaub (Schanie) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:35 pm: Edit

This was brought up in the older (2002) version of this thread by someone else but I liked the concept so wanted to bring it to the surface again.

The Hydrans, allied to the Lyrans now, are given a lot of breathing room and are not successfully invaded the Klingons in the early years. The guilds end up deposing the king and create an economic power, perhaps becoming the Hydran League, Hydran Union or something similar representing the governance by guilds. In addition to being more expansionist in mindset (at least economically), the guilds have also started leasing gas giants in other territories. This creates a sort of Jindarian appearance of random Hydran outposts, especially within Hydran ally space.

By Charles Chapel (Ctchapel) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Make the change for Earth post WW3. It's a clean slate and no baggage from history or Paramount.

Terran Empire ships should have the "+" refit as standard. I would suggest changing port and starboard phasers to FA+L & FA+R. This minor change reflects the more aggresive nature of the TE.

Points of discussion: Would a pair of barracks and transporters be fitted in and would security stations make the TE too much like the Klingons?

Once we have figured out the TE, we can move on to how their interactions with the other empires changed the Alpha Octant.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:43 pm: Edit

I don't see any reason to change the Hydran government.

The problem with post-WW3 earth is you're making it all up and have NOTHING to base it on, hence, NOT MARKETABLE.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Rome. Concerns about historical nitpickers are silly. Once extra-terrestrials show up throw everything out the window as far as what happens next.

regards
Stacy

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Charles:

The barracks idea makes a lot of sense, but I don't see the plus refit improvements being standard. The plus refits are, in large part, about drone defense. Until speed-20 drones show up, the need for additional drone defense won't be there, especially if the side phasers get expanded arcs. Security stations would, I think, depend on how the internal structure of the Imperial Federation ends up being defined.

Cheers,
Jason

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Well, one thing that might spark a rivalry between the ISC and LogRomulans could be the fate of some of the nearby Suppressed Races.

Would the LogRomulans follow a Prime Directive against contacting, say, the Gerlunians? Would the ISC, for that matter?

If the answer to either, or both, is no, there might be a race to try and sign those species up to this or that side...


Regarding Earth, if the Terran are contacted at the age of Rome, the EmoVulcans need not go for just one government. Why not also try and sign up the Han Empire, or the Parthians, or one or more of the empires in South Asia (like the Kushans) or what have you?

That way, you could get ancient Chinese and other influences in the Terran realm, not just Roman ones.


(I'd still like to see the Mongols on the table, though. by the time of Kublai Khan, they had done a lot of the grunt work of conquering Earth already!)

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Steve,

Just checking to make sure I understand your parameters for the Paravian/Gorn/logRom sector:

One way of doing it (Mike West's suggestion, and one I liked) was to assume something like the Paravian/Gorn interaction in Cl#28 occurred. ie, Paravians kick out the Gorns. In the Reflection Universe, the Vulcans could provide scouted but not settled systems as a haven for the Gorns (especially if they make reparations for having been the ones to convince the Gorns not to quarantine the Paravians in the first place). Your comment of:

"having alternating north-south bands of this side/that side creates strategic dynamic."

seems to indicate that this dynamic would work and may be the one you were referring to.

Is this reasonable, or are you viewing it as a situation where the Gorns keep their space, the logRoms settle where the primeRoms did, and the Paravians continue to raid Gorn (and maybe emoRoms/Terrans, logRoms, and ISC space).

In either of the above scenarios, the ISC can compete with and skirmish with the Gorns and logRoms.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 11:06 pm: Edit

1. If a space-faring power encountered pre-modern Earth, what possible purpose would it have for keeping humans around or for allowing them to rise above anything more than an ignorant slave force to reap the planet's resources? It certainly would not bring them up to speed and put them anywhere near on par with its own level of technology.

Even the Klingons in TOS did not reveal their advanced tech to more primitive humanoids on other planets outside the Klingon Empire.

2. Who says there has to be a WW3? After an initial contact with space-faring aliens bringing some hi-tech solutions to humanity's resource and energy problems, many of the reasons for political competition would disappear. But there would exist every possible reason for unifying for the purpose of developing a strategy of space exploration/conquest to secure Earth's vital interests. With a rich Earth militaristic history OR militaristic influence by the emoRoms, a very different kind of Federation could result.

3. In the SFU GW, it is Federation-Hydran-Gorn-Kzinti vs. Klingon-Lyran-Romulan. To put Hydrans allied with Lyrans and Gorns allied with logRoms, where is the balance for the Terrans? They seem to be terribly outnumbered.

4. Personally, I like Shanie's idea about the Hydrans having outposts/colonies on gas giants spread out through several Empires. That would make them kind of like anti-pirates. Instead of attacking convoys and ships of the various Empires, they would have very localized forces to be reckoned with. Their ships could remain the same, but they would not be officially allied with anyone. Kind of a cross between pirates and the Tholians.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Mike:


1. Remember that the Klingons themselves were positively influenced by the Old Kings - and the Spirit Kings went even further, leaving the Hydrans with their first non-tactical warp starships.

Plus, there are the likes of the Mæsron Alliance, who offered newly-contacted species the opportunity of joining the Alliance or being isolated from the wider galactic community (but not conquered or subjugated).

Not all empires are alike.


2. Well, I like going for one of the older eras anyway (Mongols or something else) so WW3 wouldn't be an issue then.


3. Note that SVC has the ISC on the same side as the Lyrans, Hydrans and Imperial Feds. Would the Concordium not help balance-wise?


4. Without some kind of terrain trick or defensive system to aid them, how would those isolated planets hold out from the local empire's fleets?

An empire who found such a system would have to have a good reason not to simply sweep away the ships and exact tribute from the population - and the Kingdom might not be in a position to spare ships from their home space for the task.

The only example I can think of races with such different colony needs sharing a system amicably are the Baduvai and Uthiki - but then, the Uthiki were strong Baduvai allies, to the point of eventually becoming part of the Baduvai Imperium itself.

(Until the Andromedans waxed the poor Uthiki Harmony, that is.)


However, one could say that one or more of the Orion Cartels are run by these out-Kingdom Hydrans, or at least by survivors of worlds conquered or eradicated by the powers in question.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 11:54 pm: Edit

I see the Gorns keeping their space, and the Paravians perhaps becoming the new "octant wide pirates" (using Orion SSDs).

There would be no pirate kingdoms as the Gorns would not block LogRoms from warp.

I dunno what the LogRoms would do about the Gerulians and don't see the ISC caring a bit one way or the other.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 12:22 am: Edit

f a space-faring power encountered pre-modern Earth, what possible purpose would it have for keeping humans around or for allowing them to rise above anything more than an ignorant slave force to reap the planet's resources?

Beauracrats.

The Emo-Vulcans arrive at Earth at the height of the British Empire (the Brits controlled about 25% of the Earth's land mass at the time). They discover that the Humans make better beauracrats than any of them ever would have believed possible. Humans become indespensible and eventually have all of the real power, with the aliens as figureheads.

By Joe Gallagher (Draxdreadfeare) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 12:32 am: Edit

So what are the Klingons like in the Reflection Universe? Are they their usual selves with a slightly altered set of alliances, or is their government/culture fundamentally different? It seems like their strategic position would be a lot tougher. Swapping the allegiances of the Kzintis and Lyrans isn't such a big deal, but adding in militaristic, expansionist Feds and a much stronger Hydran Kingdom would put a lot of pressure on the Empire. Maybe not as much if you go with the "Gypsy Hydrans" proposal.