Archive through July 06, 2009
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module R4J: Shadow of the Eagle:
The Reflection Universe Project:
Archive through July 06, 2009
Here are my opinions on the whole thing:
- I no longer care who the EmoVulcans subvert on Earth. I like the Communist Chinese, but really, I am more concerned with the overall picture.
- I think the primary time period (i.e. the "now" time period) should be the GW-era of the new universe. I still think (being the "Reflections Universe" and all) that there should be a Four Powers War that preceeds a Octant spanning General War. And the General War can even cascade west to east like in the "real" universe. The only ships that need to be produced are for this GW-era.
- I like the idea of Paravians becoming the "new pirates". There is no reason for them to have to use the Orion designs, however, as their ships are already pretty pirate-y as it is. Just use their CL28 ships. Thinking about it, they really do work perfectly in the role. They are truly designed for it, and just spread out. The main difference between the Paravian Pirates and the Orion Pirates is that the Orion Pirates are "Orion" in name only; the Paravian Pirates should be nearly exclusively Paravians.
- I think the only new ships that need to be done are for the ImperialFeds and the LogRomulans. All of the other empires can keep the ships they already have. (Well, technically, the Carnivons need GW-era ships, too, but if they are left small enough you can just ignore them for now.)
- The ImperialFeds will only need a handful of designs (new CA, DD, DN), as the "war" classes (NCA, NCL, DW) should be pretty much dandy as is. Only the "older" ships need updating. One cool piece of color would be to replace the OCL with a EmoVulcan inspired ship. (I.e. it was an EmoVulcan designed ship, not a Terran design ship, that survived the test of time.)
- If we really want, the LogRomulans can have the exact same ships as the Romulans. Warp powered Eagle ships (quite frankly) suck. I can easily see a technological exchange with the Klingons used to help develop a new series of ships (i.e. the Hawks). The only change I would make to the cruisers is to increase the number of labs at the expense of something else. Not to Fed levels, but more than just two boxes.
- Alternatively, the LogRomulans could have New Eagles that are shaped like the traditional Eagles, but are "beefed up" to respectable size and capability. Something with the heavy weapons and hull shape of a King Eagle, but with the boxes of a Firehawk (or at least a Sparrowhawk). Then their CA/CC/BCH could be built around a Pl-R, their CW/SL built around a Pl-S, and their DD/FF built around Pl-G.
- The "suppressed races" in Romulan space are probably treated like the traditional Vulcans would treat other races. As such, I highly doubt they are "suppressed", and the LogRomulans are figuring out how to deal with them.
- The EmoVulcans should be called the "Vulcans" (within the setting). They are the occupants and rulers of the planet Vulcan, therefore they are "Vulcans". No one cares what *should* have happened, they are just "Vulcans".
- The LogRomulans should be called the "Romulans" (within the setting). They primarily settle the planet Romulus, and therefore are "Romulans". This doesn't mean they have to have a Rome-style government. Most likely, they have the "science-council" type of government "our" Vulcans have. But, they are still "Romulans" because they are based on the planet "Romulus".
- I like the ISC working with the ImperialFeds and the Klingons working with the LogRomulans. Despite the ISC and LogRomulans being nominal "good guys", they have no choice but to be on opposite sides. They must ally with nominal "bad guys" in order to survive. Nice twist.
- In light of the split between the Lyrans and Klingons, I do agree that the Hydrans never get kicked off the map. However, due to their completely screwed up political system, I think their technological development doesn't really need to change any.
- I assume the LDR are still-born. With no help from the Hydrans, and nothing to gain from the Klingons, I figure they get reabsorbed by the Lyrans.
- The Vudar are fine, however. They can develop right on schedule and succeed just as well in this environment as in the "real" universe.
Quote:So what are the Klingons like in the Reflection Universe? Are they their usual selves with a slightly altered set of alliances, or is their government/culture fundamentally different?
Everyone else is exactly the same.
Now, some will be *slightly* different. The ISC, for example, don't become "peacekeepers" because they weren't shocked into it here. But, other than that, they are their usual, arrogant, self-righteous selves. On the other hand, the Gorn are exactly the same, but are allied to the LogRomulans, not the ImperialFeds.
The "western" powers (Klingons, Kzintis, Lyrans, Hydrans, WYN, and, eventually, Vudar) are all what they are, unchanged, except for the alliances the changed ImperialFeds force upon them.
Yes, the Klingons are in a bad way. But, that is why they must make nice with those pansy LogRomulans. Another interesting twist I would see is that the Tholians could end up helping the Klingons and LogRomulans, rather than the ImperialFeds. This is because the ImperialFeds are the real threat to their existence, and the Klingons have much bigger problems to deal with than the minor nusance that is the Tholians.
Organians?
If the empires wanted to deal, it could be its usual self.
If not, maybe its F&E hex is treated as a no-go area, in order to keep away from its locals' powers...
...unless the Sun Snake that missed Paravia went and hit Organia's star, instead.
Loren
They were delicious!
regards
Stacy
Maybe we should look at Jeremy's TE ships if it's okay with the Steves.
Jason,
SVC wrote on the 3rd that the TE ships would get their wartime refit early. I belive that is the + refit, I could be wrong.
Jeff,
Victoria: Empress of Earth, Queen of Great Britain.
Really? What's next, Space 1889/SFU crossover.(smile)
Charles Chapel
Still tweaking the timeline I mentioned I was working on to fit the updates. Rather long, so I'm avoiding spamming this list until we settle on a couple of other items. 
However, I want to run a general sequence of events past y'all on a bit not yet fleshed out but discussed before, the Carnivons/Kzinti:
I liked the idea of the Kzinti being pressed hard by Lyrans, Carnivons, Klingons and Terran Empire and eventually collapsing in the same manner as the Hydrans in the Universe Prime (whether to the Wyn Cluster or to their offworld colonies, to be determined).
Then they come back in the General War, disrupting Carnivon (who I see as either Terran allies or 'co-belligerants' at the start of the General War) and Terran attacks, and probably kicking the Carnivons out of war and back to a tiny corner of space.
General War could go something like:
Carnivons + Terrans (who now share a border just west of the former Kzinti capitals) assault Lyrans and Klingons about a year apart (168 and 169).
The Lyrans stalemate the Carnivons, and use the opportunity to coordinate with the Hydrans to attack the Klingons.
The Klingons are hard pressed, and things are made even worse when the Carnivons, frustrated, attack south along a small part of their shared border. The only thing that helps is that the Terrans and Carnivons aren't actually allied, and small skirmishes break out between the two empires, keeping some Terran ships defending the border with the Carnivons.
At some point here, the Gorn/logRoms are brought into the war on the side of the Klingons, but due to a combination of Paravian raids and ISC conflicts, can not 'throw in' against the Terrans completely.
The Klingons are near collapse when the Kzintis roar back into the picture. They fall on the Carnivons' logistical structure which is weakly defended due to most of their ships being in Lyran/Klingon space. Within a year, the Carnivons are decimated. The Lyrans and Terrans, uncertain how much of a threat the Kzintis pose, halt their attacks on the Klingons to reorganize, and the Klingons stabilize the line, even getting some solid damage in on the Hydrans.
(I don't recall when the Vudar 'claim' some Hydran territory but this can be a pressure reliever for the Klingons too)
The Terrans launch "Operation Nutcracker" (hey, great minds who think of pithy names for Operations think alike in both Universes... alternatively, call it "Operation Rockcrusher" or some such) against the Tholians, hoping to open a new front against the Klingons. (This based on an earlier comment that the Terrans might own the territory settled by the Tholians instead of the Klingons in this universe). The Terrans make good progress until the 312th shows up.
Kzinti finally throw in with the Klingons and Tholians in the west. Kzinti's first goal is to reclaim their homeworlds, and then they'll fight the Lyrans.
Seltorians show up to cause the Tholians to scurry back behind their webbed establishments.
Final stages have Gorn/logRoms and ISC still fighting, probably a full scale war by now; Gorn/logRoms still fighting the Terrans in the east. Klingons and Kzinti fighting the Terrans and Lyrans/Hydrans (and maybe Selts) in the West.
Final outcome? You decide! Seriously though, thoughts?
I cannot say I have seen the gypsy Hydrans proposal but I see no need for it.
The Klingons are still Klingons. They just fought a couple of extra wars with the Feds.
I agree with Mike West on General War, Four powers, west to east.
Yes, new Imperial Fed ships (and just the pre-war ones, maybe with more OCAs still in service and a larger overall fleet and no extra years before exhaustion). Not sure the LogRoms need new SSDs, just the warp versions of the eagles will do, then they ally with the Klingons and build KRs and Hawks. Yeah, GW carnies, sure.
Well, the success of the Vudar isn't anywhere near what anti-Klingons would like to think, in either universe.
Organians do what they always did (what they really did, not the myth).
I don't remember what a TE ship is.
I agree with Mike's appraisal of new SSDs although I think General War era Carnivons would be needed too (certainly in the above timeline - if the consensus is to make them much more of a bit player, then less work would be needed).
I would probably prefer the logRoms to develop 'Vulcan styled' ships through the EY/General War, but Steve said they go Warbird (with Warp). Given they have the influence of the Gorns it would be logical to use Plasma as their primary weapon and so that works just as well!
The ISC might be able to use some 'intermediate' classes between the EY and 'Post-General War' ships that they had in the Prime Universe (as they wouldn't have the luxury of peacetime development of their fleet to the stage they were at in the Prime Universe).
SVC, I think the ships Charles is refering to where the "Mirror, Mirror" ships I posted in this thread: http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/22026.html?1230778820
Not really a serious proposal on my part, more just me having some fun with SSDs. Definately tongue-in-cheek ships, but there ya go.
Just my opinion here, but its probably best to nail down the general concepts of this idea first before deciding what, if any, specific new ship designs are really needed. I appreciate the plug from Charles, but talking about specific ships designs might be getting ahead of ourselves.
Personally, if this idea got me something that could be considered "Modern" Carnivons, I'd buy it in a second, no matter what else was in it.
If the Mirror Tholians allied with the Romulans, then would the Tholians get some plasma torpedo variants? (**shudder**)
With the different alliances, the LDR would not be. But what if the Hydrans allied with the Vudar against the beleaguered Klingons? Instead of Lyrans with gats, now we have Vudar with gats.
Note that the Feds don't get gats under this scenario. Their fighters (would they have drones either?) probably suck, but they would get some cool PFs.
Feds developed Gatling phasers independently of the Hydrans, IIRC. Although, without the scientific power that the Vulcans could bring to bear, perhaps they would be unable to develop gatling tech.
Hey, I am all for keeping the KRs. (Sorry, I still love the Kestrals.) That works for me. I would like to see some minor statement saying that "On the Sparrowhawk main hull, two aft hull are now lab boxes (total four) and on the Firehawk main hull, four aft hull are now lab boxes (total six)." I just don't see the LogRomulans going *that* light on lab boxes, and it is extremely easy to fix and doesn't even really need new SSDs.
BTW, there are some interesting minor changes:
- As mentioned by Andy, no ImperialFed gatlings and no Fed plasma. This isn't a problem; just use the no-gatling fighters in CL39.
- I agree that the ImperialFeds also get PFs. Terrifying!
- Probably no LogRomulan cloak. Actually, there probably isn't any cloak in the setting.
- The Gorn and LogRomulans get carronade; the ISC do not. (The ImperialFeds and Paravian Pirates, with no plasmas, do not either.)
- Lyran fighters are either native or based on Stingers.
- Probably no LDR.
- Tholians are *all* photon. (The lab they raided was ImperialFed, not Klingon.)
Also, ...
- I view the Tholians as even more neutral than "for real". As such, they nominally ally with the Klingons and LogRomulans, but I don't see any tech exchange or expeditionary fleets. In other words, they accept help, but do extend themselves for anyone. They just hunker down even more.
- If we want to use cloak (and why not; the rules are there), how about giving it to the Paravian pirates? That way they still fly around in their bird-ships, but now they can cloak, too! (Not much of a tactical advantage, what with their one-turn arming weapons, but it is strategically very useful.)
- I don't think we can let the Kzintis get kicked off map. While I was all for it at first, I don't think it works. If the Kzintis are kicked off by the Carnivons and ImperialFeds, then the Klingons are *completely* surrounded. I don't think they could survive that. So, I think that we are left with no one getting kicked off the map.
Quote:Feds developed Gatling phasers independently of the Hydrans, IIRC. Although, without the scientific power that the Vulcans could bring to bear, perhaps they would be unable to develop gatling tech.
It is a bit murky on what, exactly, happened. IIRC, one type (ship/fighter) they developed (fighter I think), and the other type (ship I think) they got from the one ship (a Knight) that made it through Klingon space from the Hydran expeditionary fleet.
So, to simplify, I figure no gatlings. Considering they are going to get more combat oriented ships AND gunboats, I figure they don't need any more help ...
Lyran fighters, hmmmm....
Two ways this could go. Without the Klingons, maybe they didn't do fighters at all. Or, with Hydran help, they developed fighters with gatlings and either p2 or disruptors. With such cool fighters, they didn't get into PFs until after the Feds had developed them.
I would say no fed gatlings.
Lyran fighters and PFs: interesting topic for thought.
Mike,
I agree that the Klingons will end up in a bad situation if the Kzintis get kicked off, unless the Carnivons in the early years put enough pressure on the Lyrans to prevent the Lyrans from really focusing on the Klingons. I don't see the Carnivons as Klingon enemies in early-mid years (they're likely nominal allies in fact, or at least an 'enemy of my enemy' agreement). They really don't have to do any attacking of Klingon territory in the General War. In other words, they more or less replace the Kzintis as Klingon 'helpers' until the Kzintis return and offer a more formal alliance out of necessity.
Additionally it's possible to bring the Gorn/logRoms into the war a lot earlier, which they might do if it was obvious the Klingons were going to get crushed.
It doesn't mean I'm not open to letting the Kzintis not get kicked out, just that I'm trying to find ways to preserve that option as I think it's a fun change.
Fed BB?
Oooohhhh...
Charles, I was actually thinking War of the Worlds, but it's a bit late.
The question is will the Fed economy be the same? Or will it be more like the Klingons (reflecting the difference between a state run economy and free capitalism).
Resources would be the same so LogRoms would still have a difficult economy.
I also think it would be good to have some EmoRoms practice logic to some degree so that we have some semblance to bearded Spock.
btw, Mike (West), I also like having at least one 'Vulcan' inspired ship being prominent in Terran Empire development/history, and swapping it for the OCA feels fun.
Battleships ok.
Fed Economy, I dunno.
Kzintis won't be kicked off the map but will lose a province or two to the Carnivons.
Spock (not to be mentioned due to license) would logically be a LogRomulan.
Quote
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1. If a space-faring power encountered pre-modern Earth, what possible purpose would it have for keeping humans around or for allowing them to rise above anything more than an ignorant slave force to reap the planet's resources? It certainly would not bring them up to speed and put them anywhere near on par with its own level of technology.
==========
If we apply that standard, humanity ends up as a slave race in the mirror universe, no matter when the first contact happens. Any species capable of practical interstellar flight will almost certainly have the ability to toast our little tushies, be it in ancient, medieval, imperial, modern, or near future eras.
Jason
I don't believe that any of the Klingon subject races were starfaring when added to the Empire yet it doesn't stop them from being used on their starships.
regards
Stacy