Another solution to the Kestrel question (besides the historical "the Klingons gave us the ships") is to require a specialized shipyard to build them. (Just thinking out loud.)

Early Neo-Tholians, interesting. That would make the Tholians a contender!

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 08:32 pm: Edit

John Berg did actually have semi-special shipyards in U1- it took me a turn to change from Old Series to New Hawks for each shipyard (no cost). There probably should be a similar rule for the generic empires as they switch over from pre middle years hulls to MY ones. Use the MY/GW/X1 to X2 switchover paradigm as a precedent. Perhaps the "old" SYs cost 50% as much as the modern ones, and refitting them costs the difference plus a surcharge.

Kestrel yards might not throw things out of whack. They would certainly cause some interesting tradeoff decisions. Now doubt there would be a lot of KRE/KRS, and K5S hulls made out of anything that survived...

By Alex Aminoff (Aaminoff) on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 08:47 pm: Edit

I'm trying to understand Reaction Movement (RX). The rules talk about using a point of RX movement to do a BN or FLY or WS or AM or a bunch of other things. But can you use a RX to jump on an enemy fleet in an adjacent hex in your ZOC? It does not seem to state anywhere explcitly that you can. If you can, do you get to use that RX point to do a BN simultaneously? If you have a 2-hex ZOC (due to spiffy scouts), can you use one RX to jump 2 hexes onto something? Could you use 2 RXs one after the other? (this would be like the way F&E does it).

Basically, my question is, if I want to interecept enemy forces coming at me, do I have to guess correctly what their hex path is going to be or can I in effect give intercept orders?

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 08:55 pm: Edit

RX can be a [pain] I once had 3 sq in a hex that were ordered to AM and RX as required since this was only 2 /3 movements they died in seperate battles even though the enemy did not arrive till the last movement.
you must repeat must lay out your orders in clear and orderly fashion otherwise your GM will delight in telling your uncleared orders got your ships killed
thus
Seg 4 AM on defending sq in hex, Seg 8 hold AM Seg 12 BN in bound enemy sq

miss a step and the GM will inform you that ships that spend 6 months in a hex were to stupid to combine on the clearly inbound enemy sq

Vulgarity edited. J. Sexton.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Alex, in your orders you set speed for your squadrons. That tells you how fast you can move and also sets how many RXs you have.

Speed 3 usually means no RX movement except for a Strategic Stop.

Speed 2 + 1 RX lets you move 2 hexes and use an RX along the way. For example, you could start in A1 and do the following:
Move: A1-A2-A3 (that is your move 2)
In A3, use an AM (Assembling movement) to join with squadrons XA2 and XA3. Attack the enemy squadron in A3 and disrupt their MRR.

You can set up conditional movement, but you have to have the speed to accomplish it. For example, you could set your speed to 3 and write orders:

Speed 3
Move A1-A2-A3-A4

If you sensor a squadron with fewer than 7 ships, change course to a pursuit plot and move to follow/intercept it.

Now, here is the down side to such an order: You might never catch the SQ. If you are moving along straight paths at the same speed on the same trajectory, you won't. Let's say that his ship moved B1-A1 on its first move. You could easily have moved to B1 to try to catch it. The one thing you didn't do was stay in A1, unless you gave orders to SS there and make the SQ fight to advance if it attempted to enter you owned hex.

I'm not sure that thinking of RX in an F&E style will benefit you. Perhaps Ryan or one of the other F&Eers who play GC will chime in.

By Alex Aminoff (Aaminoff) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 08:02 am: Edit

Thank you, your explanation was very helpful. So what I am looking for is "pursuit plot", which is different from RX.

Supposing an enemy squadron is moving speed 3. It seems clever to deliberately drop to speed 2 in order to move *after* they do and be able to pursue them. So on segment 4 they would move 1 hex towards me. Using a pursuit plot, on segment 6, I move into their hex (or dont move at all if they moved into my hex), and use my extra movement point as a BN to engage them. This would work if the enemy starts 1 hex away and moves into any of the 3 hexes that are in the direction of my fleet.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:44 am: Edit

Hi Alex,

RX works for the hex that your ships are in (not adjacent hexes).

There is a caveat however. Subject to GM intepretation, your squadron is allowed to prevent the advance of an enemy squadron. If the enemy wins the engagement, he continues to advance. If not, he stops in the hex.

Multiple advancing squadron battles can have amusing results. I once had a three vs three battle in a hex. Two of my squadrons were stopped, while the third advanced. (My best squadron was stronger than the enemy's best squadron. My other two squadrons were rather weak.)

As far as intercepting an enemy squadron in open space, Rob is correct, the orders must be clear. It is possible that the enemy squadron is not advancing (say it is moving parallel to your space). In this case, a conditional BN, with instructions to attack, etc should work (subject to GM interpretation). The squadron is slower (MV=2+RX). A LO allows MV=3 with bonus RX.

Pursuit plotting is allowed, but does not guarentee a battle. As always, this is subject to GM interpretation.

Often a single SC has orders to avoid combat. For example, your SC is surveying the hex and an enemy shows up. Usually what happens is the SC avoids combat by giving up the survey action (because of the avoid combat order). If the enemy had a BN (guaranteeing one round of combat), then your scout is toast.

If the scout had no such order to avoid combat, then the GM may allow a fight.

Then there is the BM as RX. It avoids combat for sure. It will negate 1 BN by an enemy.

As you can see, the game is subjective. The GM does a lot of interpretation.

Here is my secret (all others can stop reading...this is for Alex).

Use Captain's discretion in your orders!

Sometimes, when the written orders will lead to obvious death and destruction, the GM may have sympathy for you and allow your Captain to take a better course of action.

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 01:48 pm: Edit

And some time not!
I tend to place what are called General Orders
such as do not engage sq 25% stronger then yourself.
ect

By Alex Aminoff (Aaminoff) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 11:36 pm: Edit

Is there any consensus among grognards as to which of the R&D projects are must-haves? WS and FLY seem like pretty powerful force multipliers, in the situation of attacking or defending a fixed point, which ultimately most important battles will be.

Oh, and for Enhanced Flag Ops and Really Enhanced Flag Ops, can you do the 3 for 2 trick once per squadron or as many times as you like? In other words, is DN + 15xFF a legal squadron with EFO?

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 12:26 am: Edit

Can=# of ships in a sq
So a DN (C&C 10)means that the DN can manage 10 ships + a SC

under EFO the can remains the same but the ships movement determines how many ships are actual in the SQ So A FF=1/3 movement can actual have up to 30 FF in a sq.

add in a L op officer +3 to CC of a sq

and the numbers can climb mix in several SC3, PF, Fighters So yes your DN +15 FF is legal

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 01:21 am: Edit

Well, I interpreted EFO differently. Every 3 SC4 ships counts as 2 command slots (I.E. 2/3 per ship). So a DN can command 15 FF (15 x 2/3 = 10). But, I'd take 15 DD's instead of FF's!

(Rob, I can not find in the rule book where the SC is free -- "DN can manage 10 ships + a SC". I thought the SC counted as a command slot.)

REFO applies to CW clas ships. 3 CW take up 2 command slots.

Yes, EFO applies to all squadrons.

Well, WS and FLY are relatively new R&D projects - I can not say if they are "must haves".

I would say that EFO is a must have. I would put specialized shipyards in this category.

Battling with Howard makes ICR a must in my book. I had an urgent need for MS at the time.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:05 pm: Edit

These are techs that I'd almost always consider getting- EFO (raises combat density of FF/DD to CW/CA levels), REFO (raises CW density to DN levels), CEFO (if you have good CVs), ESS (detection range), SY Specialization (pays for itself quickly), autoSY (pays for itself eventually), Fleet formation, PDO (surprise value of early stuff), Randomizer (convoy loss insurance), ICR (even the U1 Romulans did this for increased warp conversions; nearly everyone will run short of slots)

These techs are "second tier" either due to timeframe or because they assume certain strategies. None the less they are worth having in the general case- LOS, Accelerated MRR, QCB (tier II due to timeframe, not game effect), Star Fortress/Palace, HPM, advanced MRR

This tech is a dead end and only useful in very specialized circumstances- Improved colonies.

Other techs are too new for me to have formed an opinion on, or I don't want to tip my hand about.

Rob- EFO/REFO no longer refer to movement costs. Both are now explicitly 2 CAN slots for 3 hulls (baring empire special rules), do as many times in a squadron as desired (BB(LO), DN, 18x[CW/DW/DD/FF] is a legal squadron if one has REFO and EFO.]. No free scouts (that is a F&E rule), as John notes.

DDs have crunch power (+1AF bonus plus higher BPV) over FFs, but generally the FF gets a 20% discount. The Gorns thus buy FFs while everyone else buys DDs. :-)

Allowing mine sweeping shuttles (MSS, C4.25) has reduced the need for ICR techs somewhat, much to the annoyance of Romulans everywhere.

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 09:59 pm: Edit

actual given the low cost of FF 45/36 vs green DD 68/54 and the very very poor combat stacking power of the FF's I'd go the DD route

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:41 am: Edit

Thanks for the clarification Howard.

Boy, I feel lonely, as I've used IC (Improved Colonies).

Maybe I'm special! The U2 Triaxians had a lot of minor systems (relatively speaking anyway), I generally build a BATS at a minor based on general principles, and the MM had extra money for the second CB. It made sense to R&D IC (scientific method) to me.

Not a must have tech, but, the minor system income was doubled each turn.

The U5 Lyrans come to mind, lots of minor colonies, very expensive to upgrade to a major system. IC might be a viable alternate in the interim.

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 04:06 pm: Edit

NO, FRAKING NO, FRAKING RYN NO!

Sorry Ken, but taking your name in vain adds to the emphis.

IC must be consitered the most worthless piece of R&D

For spending @ 600 points you get to build a second CB for 100 points that means for ten turns at least to recover the investment.
Second to upgrade to a TCB cost 250 points instead of the 150 it should cost.
Third you cant move the second CB even if it is made of of three MLB
Fourth 9 second CB cost 900 points that 90 points a turn vs 3.6 TCB upgrades which would be
25-10=15
38-10=28
53-10=43
---------
86
add 100 points to get the 4th major on line
75-10=65
---------
151 points per turn additional income

The cost of R&D additional CB provides no supperity over the tradional TCB unless there was some way to made use of the second CB in upgrading to a TCB

By Alex Aminoff (Aaminoff) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 05:10 pm: Edit

I just want to confirm that MM income is based on the total *BPV* in the SR, not EPV. So building vanilla freighters to boost your MM income is actually dumb - you want those F-AL and F-AS for that; but that requires SB or shipyard slots and MM conversions.

By Alex Aminoff (Aaminoff) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 05:31 pm: Edit

E1.20 says "the MM may also build shipyards for SC3 and SC4 ships". If the MM builds the shipyard, is it then an MM unit and can only be used by the MM to build things with MM funds? Or are all shipyards shared by the MM and military?

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Actual no.
A SB can build any R1 merchie.
It can also do the conversation
SY are not required per say
F-SS are also go 26/50

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Commercial Tugs: recently the question came up about transfering a base without a tug.
It should be possable to hire cilivan tugs to carry out mission that are non combat in nature
possable at a cost of 10% of either the tug or base cost per turn. Must be in surveied space

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Bases, shipyards and similar infrastructure does not contribute to MM income. Basically if it is assigned to a system, hex, or stock, it doesn't generate income. If it moves under its own power or gets put on a mobile unit (i.e. pod, skids, pallets, attrition units) then it probably can produce income while it is or is on that unit. I.e. 36xFTR produce no income. 36xFTR on ground bases produce no income. 36xFTR on AxCV* hulls produce income; cargo pods produce no income. cargo pods on a tug produce income; troop transport or other pods capable of independent movement- probably requires a GM ruling; FRD in SR produces income.


Any SYs built by the MM are general purpose ones and not limited in their build choices by what funded them.

MM income is BPV based, not EPV based, so, as noted, F-L/F-S are poor choices to build for income purposes (they obviously have other uses). F-SS would be one cost effective income producing choice. When looking at the strategic implications, there are other hull types to build.

A Starbase (or larger base) can build one size class 4 R1 unit. This allows small Aux hulls, but precludes large ones, FRDs, monitors, huge freighter variants, and possibly a few others I've missed off hand. It was easier to rule things by size class as the previous edition of the rules didn't allow AxCVAs, but did, due to publication order and rule wording, allow OALs. That it also slows down MRRs (F-OL/F-OP are both size class 3), was just an added plus I suspect.

IMO, Improved Colonies are only useful if you intend to stay as a minor (7 majors or less) empire. The cost to upgrade an improved colony to a major system under the current rules is cost ineffective IMO (wearing my player hat for that comment). I generally agree with Rob on this, although the mathematical models we use differ as to how bad the deal is.

Note- some answers are vague because they would give away strategies that I am employing in active games. Future enemies will just have to find out about them the, ahem, explosive, way.


Civilian base movement- Rob, I'll of course defer to John and Mike, but I rather suspect that "sensitive" gear in a military base rules out civilian movement. You need a fleet tug (maybe a LTT; movement cost 1.5 or 2 tugs would do too should the GM allow them) for most purposes. You probably can use a MM conversion slot and funds to build a size class 4 tug (ex: DW based theater transport). They can move (slowly) smaller bases.

By John D Berg (Kerg) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Mr bampton is correct

By John D Berg (Kerg) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:06 pm: Edit

CB/TCB cannot be moved

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:42 pm: Edit

RE: E1.20

The way I read the rule, the answer is yes, the MM can build a SC3SY and SC4SY for the purpose of building civilian ships.

I believe the reason is because of a rule change. The Heavy Auxiliaries, Heavy Freighters are no longer allowed to be built at a SB (B8.42).

The FOL and FOP come to mind, as they are part of the MRR requirements.

This necessitates the use of a Ship Yard (or FRD, CDK, BSSY). So, the civilian ship yard is now an option to be considered.

The alternative is to tie up a military ship yard (doable of course). I like the part where civilian funds are used to construct the MM ship yards.

The Large and Small Auxiliaries and Freighters are still allowed to be built at a SB.


Rob, sorry I brought IC up. (I did not intend to upset you - and use Ken's name in vain?!) Upgrading to a Major is way better in the long run.

It is expensive in the short run. TCB, support freighters for Trade Route Hexes (decent military defenses for a major system - not the minimum requirements).


I suppose my view of the GC world is that MM funds are free*. The Triaxians got a good roll, getting IC after a 150 ep investment using scientific method (if memory serves). The BATS were going to be built anyway. So the extra CB was essentially free (using MM funds).

*I have a degree in Triaxian accounting!!

My cunning plan was to create more minor systems via MRR, use IC for some extra bucks, recover my EEP to zero, then upgrade all minors to majors in two turns! Presto, a major power suddenly appears where a minor power used to be. The goal was to be a 17 system major. Ah well, sadly, the game ended.

As I am apparently the only member of the IC club, I'll say no more on the subject.

"Bartender, another round for the members of the IC club please."

Cheers!

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Ah well, I missed "one size class 4 R1 unit" at a SB.

Vague is good!

Fortunately, my strategy (good or bad) was revealed as applied to a past game.

My current stategy (if any) will not be revealed (hopefully).

CHEERS!

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Diamiond Drow Whisky No Chaser.

While militay bases could not be transfered A CB should be moveable by commicial transport.

Tugs are not R1 and therefore tie up a SC3SY slot
or a BSSY +30% and one exter turn Plus a CB will probility need 3 tug min to move the thing In the long run it easiler to just build them in place
each THX cost 8 F-S or 208 points plus the 250 CB/TCB

Every major over 7 added 100 at peace 200 at war and 250 at FWcan-3 So for the lyrans 3 turn paids for the upgrade for the most part

Upgrades on defenses out of navy fund as the MM income is needed to build the F-S and least we forget the FT needed for a TP

MM is small hidden to most but a key source ecomocy growth