Jason:

A I noted earlier, it depends on what the stellar power wants from the new contact - and, of course, what the new 'recruits' make of it.


Indeed, there were two further examples I failed to mention - the Baduvai and Eneen in the Cloud. They are quite instructive, for various sides of the equation.


As a rule, the Baduvai are generally fairly decent, as a society, more or less. However, their drive to space is on the back of knowing their home star has 'only' 20,000 years or so to live. So, in the course of founding the Baduvai Imperium, they were pretty driven towards securing a new home world for their species, before it was too late.

So, when they encountered their first pre-warp indigenous species, on the world of H'Gar, they basically went ahead and colonised the planet anyway - displacing the locals to the kind of reservations one might have seen in places like Australia on Earth.

Not quite so good for the locals there.


Regarding the Eneen, it's a somewhat different story. When the Jumokians contacted them, the Eneen were at a late-20th to early-21st century technology level (nuclear weapons, a near-Ena space program, etc). The Jumokians, building up their nascent League, jump-started the Eneen technology base to one which could support what was at that stage a junior membership of the League.

However, even before the Eneen made a formal break with Jumok (only seven to ten years after first contact - an indicator how how many pieces the Jumokians had, perhaps foolishly, left the Eneen to take) there had been an incident regarding a less advanced species. An Eneen captain sold gunpowder technology to a petty kingdom of a species called the Cojopians, who promptly conquered the planet, as part of an agreement which saw the Eneen place a permanent settlement site on the Cojopian home world.

When the break was made, the Eneen cited a lack of certain investments in capital improvements, and frustration at not being 'equal' partners in the League. However, even if the Jumokians had been more obliging in these, there's no guarantee the Eneen wouldn't have taken the goodies and then gone ahead with the revolt anyway.

Plus, after the Eneen established their Protectorates, they made quite sure not to let any of the species they asserted their power over out into space. (Well, some might have worked on Eneen-run orbital facilities in their systems, and been planted on certain colony worlds to work as labourers. However, they were never used as crews on Naval ships.) In essence, the Eneen were keen to avoid making the same mistake that the Jumokians had made with them.

Oh, and they not only managed to eventually conquer Jumok itself, but made sure to blast the planet into the stone age after the Jumokians had a failed go at liberation some decades later.

How nice of them.


Would the Terran role in an originally Vulcan-led coalition be something similar to the stunt the Eneen pulled, or would the two species (with or without others) find a more mutually amicable balance?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 07:01 pm: Edit

There is an answer to jason Schaff's quetion,

If we apply that standard, humanity ends up as a slave race in the mirror universe, no matter when the first contact happens. Any species capable of practical interstellar flight will almost certainly have the ability to toast our little tushies, be it in ancient, medieval, imperial, modern, or near future eras.

The answer is everybody needs a straw boss. eVulcan racism being what it is, they would not elevate Earth to status of "equal", but humans wuld appear to them to be the most "vulcanoid" (except for that sickly reddish skin tone and those demonic round ears) so if they needed someone to do for them what the Seltorans did for the Tholians, humans would be the natural choice.

Then It All Falls Apart. The Vulcan Empire collapses amid everybody fighting everybody. A new Dark Age ensues.

The various powers rebuild. The other former slave races try to destroy eVulcans and have no love for the Humans either. The eVulcans and Humans are forced to ally and win the war against the Tellarite/Andorian/Orion alliance. (Perhaps they bribe the Orions into neutrality)

By being the middlmen for the Vulcan empire, we see a massive shift toward the nasty and authoritatian in humans, which would be confirmed by winning the Resurgence War and subjugating other races. Human + Vulcan was always a winning combo so they keep the alliance tgether and move outward to encompass the approximate dimensions of Fed space, making them a military juggernaught.

The question then becomes what effect a massive and aggressive military power has on the Eastern Races? Would it modify the hatreds and conflict seen there? Arguably the Klingons were more adventurous against their neighbors because they could be reasonably sure they wouldn't get backstabbed by the Feds. With the Imperioals there instead, they would have to be more cautious.

I like exiling the Kzinti to the WYN cluster, but if SVC says they keep territory, it's no biggies.

I can't see the lRomulans (I almost wanted to write "iRomulans") befriending the tholians because the tholians befriended nobody until the General War forced it on them. They're not going to be any more outgoing here.

To keep the SSD book of manageable size, most races must use the same ships and same technology they use in the Prime universe. We can select a few races for detailed updates. Minor weapons arc changes are not worth a new SSD, though we can perscribe minor changes and sell a Module R1 Mirror down the road.

No romulan kestrels. No Fed gats. No Klink or Lyran maulers.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 07:13 pm: Edit

I like my shades of gray.

The Klingons have good and bad to them. In the SFU, they aren't just the cardboard depicted in TOS. They have depth. They have nuance.

The ImperialFeds should be no worse. Sure, their *society* is elitist. Sure, the ImperialFeds want to conquer the galaxy. But, I don't see why they have to be specist at the same time. Why can't they be egalitarian and superior at the same time. In fact, that would just help feed their egos: They are fighting against single-species monocultures. They are *better* than the single-species Gorns and LogRomulans. They are *better* that the Kzinti and Lyrans who enslave other species. They are *better* than the Klingons who virtually enslave other species. They welcome all on their glorious march to domination! Join them and rule the galaxy!!

Uh, sorry. Got a little carried away.

But, I do think it is absolutely important that the ImperialFeds NOT be specist. They welcome all that will join them. The humans dominate the ImperialFeds because they *earned* the right. If another species becomes dominant, fine. They will have *earned* the right. But they are all part of the ImperialFeds.

(This, BTW, could be one of the reasons that the ImperialFeds and ISC get along: they are both empires that have multiple species as fully participating members. The ImperialFeds use the Lyrans and Hydrans because they are useful. However, they actually kinda like the ISC and figure they will be integrated into the Greater ImperialFederation more easily than all of the other single-species empires because they *get* it. (Too bad their cultures are incompatible ...)

Oh, and I figure the ImperialFed economy is pretty inefficient. With all of the status challenges and need to fight for dominance, I figure that a lot of money, energy, and time is wasted ordering the hierarchy. However, I expect that the final determination of the ImperialFed economy has to wait until the rest of the setting is set up, then it can be leveled to whatever is necessary to keep them from just taking over.

On the Lyran fighters, when I suggested that they be based on Hydran Stingers, I did not mean that they would also use Hydran weapons. I figure that Lyran Stingers would not have Ph-G (too hard to maintain and produce for an attrition unit), but would use Disruptors, Ph-2, and Ph-3 (no drones).

I would envision the Lyran Stingers to have two versions, both based on the Stinger-2. One would have 2xPh-3 and 1xPh-2. The other would have 2xPh-3 and 1xDisruptor (two charges). The Lyran carriers would also be designed to make use of launch tubes, too. I would also not be surprised to see the Lyrans make extensive use of remote controlled fighters, essensially turning their Stinger-Ds and Stinger-Ps into large seeking weapons.

I really think the Ph-Gs should be the sole domain of the Hydrans. The Hydrans are the only ones who can make them in sufficient numbers, and they can't make enough to export. So, Ph-Gs are Hydran only.

I always assumed Lyrans would still get gunboats like "normal" (especially since those Stinger-Ds and Stinger-Ps wouldn't be all that great). But, if not, I guess that is OK.

If you need one empire to not use gunboats, I nominate the Kzinti. Perhaps, with their crippled economy, they just couldn't support economic cost to change over from fighters to gunboats. Instead, they effectively adopted the realFed "third-way" and just go all-in with fighters and heavy fighters.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Stacy:

Precisely! If the eVulcans behave like Klingons, then humanity ends up as a slave race and never achieves equal status. The Imperial Federation ends up as just a Vulcan Empire.

============

John:

Interesting idea. I can see that one working. Kind of the reverse order of events from the scheme I postulated.

Cheers,
Jason

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 08:22 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

No romulan kestrels. No Fed gats. No Klink or Lyran maulers.

---

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Mike,

SVC already said there are Kestrals. I'm happy.

De nada for me. I'm not attached to "no kestrels" The points is that relationships that flow tech from one place to another need to be reexamined as to how they happened and if they would happen the same way.

Why do the Klingons give lRoms kestrel hulls? How do the conditions of Smarba (or wherever name you want to give it) change when the Kilnks negotiate without the big bargaining chip of access to warp drive? It seems a useless exercize to look for ways to rationalize every race getting every last bit of tranferred tech they have in the prime universe. The whole point is to explore differences.


Finally, again, I really don't want to see any "slave races" in the ImperialFeds. You have to give them *some* good attributes. Besides, "slave races" are already done to death in the "real" setting AND in this setting with the Klingons, Lyrans, and Kzintis. Let them be non-specist within their own empire, even while over-ambitious individually.

Why do we have to give them any good attributes? Why force them in any particular direction?

Better to explore the ramifications of one core change without trying to make the universe fit into too many preconceived notions (the biggest being the General War timeline or the General War list of alliances and coalitions). What we want to avoid is uninteresting directions and pursue interesting ones. If there's no hay to be made out of slave races, junk it.

As with kestrels I am not attached to Terran Imperial slave races.

The Vulcan/Terran Empire can develop into a pure pirate meritocracy, but remember we are using eVulcans as the agents provacateur. We have to somehow deal a death blow to vulcanoid dominance and racism without dealing a death blow to vulcanoid ambitions and attitudes. Those we need to sublimate through the rest of what would be Fedspace in the prime universe.

I have suggested a generalized template for doing so. The details are negotiable, which is as it should be at the "idea" stage of development.

Can we agree that the Feds won't get plasma torps?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Jason
Some of those non-Klingon subjects of the Empire have risen to positions of note. And Rom/Vulcans would probably be a BIT more egalitarian than Klingons...
regards
Stacy

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:10 pm: Edit

One thing to point out regarding the Carnivon/Kzinti dynamic..

If you take a couple of provinces away from the Kzinti and give them to the Carnivons which presumably keeps Kzinti eyes to the west as much as against the Lyrans and Terrans, you weaken them substantially, so the Klingons could still be fubar when the General War hits. The timeline I proposed works no worse than this scenario unless I'm missing something obvious.

Given that the Kzintis don't get exiled now, I would suggest having the Carnivons take from the Lyrans instead.

If we look at the 'real' General War, the Klingons and Lyrans had a chance only because they could knock conceivably one of the widely separated Hydrans or Kzintis out of the war.

For the Klingons to really have any chance in the Reflections Universe, you either have to have a pretty chaotic start to the General War which is what my proposal was; or a Kzinti empire about as powerful as it was before; or a Lyran empire less powerful than it was before; or the Gorn/logRoms join in on the General War very early and pretty strongly.

Since the first option is now off the table, I suggest Lyrans lose provinces to Carnivons at least in the same numbers as the Kzinti do, and in the General War the Carnivons opportunistically attack the Lyrans more than the Kzinti while the Gorn/logRoms jump the Terrans a few years earlier. Otherwise the Klingons are probably toast.

Of course, this all presumes we care that the Klingons stay a strong power throughout. The General War could see the Klingons crushed and occuppied, but the Terrans 'overreach' and attack Lyran/Hydran space.

Anyhow, just tossing out more ideas to get shot down. At least it has the effect of 'constraining' the parameters.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Also, looking back at the old 'Modern Carnivon' thread, it appears as though not much work needs to be focused there as SVC said their weapons and ships are more or less 'done' and waiting for a venue to appear in.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Jason

When I postulated how Terrans would become dominant in a Terran-emoRomulan empire, I gave two possible explanations for how that could happen in that post.

Not worth rehashing it again.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 09:53 pm: Edit

I agree with Mike West last post.

OTOH, I could see LogRoms skipping Kestrals entirely and going from Eagle to Hawks, since they develop Warp Eagles themselves, they never need the Treaty of Smarba.

Unless a fleet of Klingons gets caught on the wrong side of things and the LogRoms buy them to counter some other force (increase Paravian attacks? Initial ISC contact?)

By Charles Chapel (Ctchapel) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Maulers:
The questions that need to be answered are; 1, do the eVulcans percive a need to produce the system, and 2, do we need maulers to make things work out?
If the VTE field maulers, I agree that they would sit on that advantage.

Lyran fighters:
I had posted earlier on this subject so won't repeat myself, but to add, the P2 option was one I had missed and can support.

VTE Fighters:
As before, no high-low mix, no PG fighters, and somthing else I missed, no SWAC.

VTE EW ships:
Because science for it's own sake is not the Empires way, GSC and SC ships should not be so much better than every other empire's class of ships.

Cloaking Devices:
Same questions as before, do the VTE need it and do we want it? I don't think the VTE need it but what if cloaking is an Orion technology here. If we go with the destruction of the enclave, as suggested, this could be one more reason why the VTE did so. This tech would be a threat that could not be ignored. It would also keep the Orions around in a very hostile galaxy. If we want the LRoms to have cloak, trade with the Orions is one way to do that.(Simular but reversed from Prime Alpha)

Hydran-Lyran alliance:
Would the Lyrans and Hydran colonize each others space? I have a vague memory that was a treaty condition that failed. (with the Klingons?)
I bring this up because, depending on how much space is lost to the Carnivons, some of the economic cost could be made up this way, in addition to the recovery of LDR provence. Also, could incorporating Peladine Space as a new county under the control of the King be possibe? That would explain the cover of the Fleet box with a ship in FarStars colors but, with yellow replacing blue in the roundrell.

Charles Chapel

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Loren:


Given the heavy Klingon influence on the Hawk series, the lack of Smarba would mean the ships would have a very different look.

And with no Klingon influence, whatever Kingbird-to-King Eagle upgrade seen in this reality would have no nacelle-mounted plasmas, either.


Actually, I have an idea.

What if, instead of (or perhaps alongside a relatively small set of) KRs, the LogRomulans used Orion hull 'ORs' instead?

(Perhaps there could be a set of exiles/rebels/malcontents fleeing the Orion Enclave, and part of the deal allowing them to settle in LogRomulan space is for them to build the LogRomulan equivalent of WYN-Orion hulls?)


Then, maybe the resultant third-generation hulls could look like fish ships, albeit ones with Orion-style engines instead of the Klingon ones in the historical WYN Cluster.



Oh, another thought - if the Paravians are given the octant-wide raider role, maybe they could be the ones to take over the WYN Cluster?

Wouldn't that be trouble for the neighbours...

By Charles Chapel (Ctchapel) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:26 pm: Edit

I was just over at the FedCom board an they were discussing megaphasers. Could/would megaphasers be a subsitute for maulers? Or, the big guns of the VTE for cruiser and larger?

Charles Chapel

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Alternatively, could the Imperialist Feds develop the light and heavy photons the historical FRA came up with?


Technology-wise, it wasn't all that hard for the Aurorans to come up with, and would be even easier for the Imperialists to devise. There's no reason to assume the Imperialists stuck with the same rigid photon doctrine of the UFP...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Before hitting anything else, let me hit Smarba ...

Let's forget the whole Reflections universe. Let's just take the normal, everyday Romulans we all know. Let's assume they get relevant warp power in, say, Y120. That means they could produce the WVL, WE, BH, and SNA in Y120 or so. By the time they make it to Y158, they are still using these ships, but we can probably assume they have already received the R-refit. So, given that setup, the Romulans would *still* do Smarba. Why? Because their ships SUCK.

Would the deal be exactly the same? Who knows. But the Romulans would have significant incentive to make the deal anyway, because their ships are so inferior and they gain a fully modern fleet immediately. Plus, they get the technological expertise that is required to create their later Hawk series.

The simple matter of the situation is that the Romulans don't make sign the Smarba treaty to gain warp, they sign the Smarba treaty to modernize their fleet into a significant threat. Whether they have sublight ships or sucky warp ships doesn't change that motivation.

Now, back to the Reflections Universe. The LogRomulans are a fairly peaceful people who probably would have spent much less time working on their military fleet as the RealRomulans. They have expanded peacefully, found the Gorns, and had a long a prosperous relationship with them. Then they meet the hostile ImperialFeds, but they are focused elsewhere and are not a significant threat. Then they meet the ISC who are also peaceful and, while aloof, are not a threat either.

Their old reliable WVL, WE, BH, and SNA do a excellent job of patrolling and securing their border. It works for them. No complaints.

"All of a sudden" the ImperialFeds become much more belicous. Worse, they are negotiating with the ISC who are not talking to the LogRomulans much at all. Bad signs. And they are distinctly unprepared and will require decades of research and development to rectify.

Then they get feelers from the Klingons. The Klingons are being hard pressed by the same ImperialFeds, and are willing to deal. In exchange for an alliance, they are willing to offer massive technological assistance, which will cut those decades down to years. You can figure out the rest.

So, even with warp ships, the LogRomulans are unprepared and cornered. While the Klingons are not an empire that the LogRomulans would like to ally with, it justifications and rewards are evident, and the downsides are minor. Quite simply, it is just the logical thing to do, especially considering the circumstances.

As an added plus, the LogRomulans also have a stronger position than the RealRomulans did. They are not nearly as desperate as the RealRomulans, and the Klingons are far more desperate. The LogRomulans could probably even get some significant extra concessions out of the Klingons.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Mike:


It's worth noting that with the Kingbird available to upgrade, there would have still been 'a' King Eagle - it just wouldn't have looked like the Klingon-influenced KE if the Romulans had a do-it-yourself option.


In this alternate setting, the Klingons would simply not be in a position to spare the kind of ships that the historical Treaty of Smarba had sent to the Romulans - but some kind of Treaty, with a very limited series of sales (for KR conversions) could be possible.

Well, Klingon technical assistance would still facilitate building Hawk-series hulls, I guess - which would be a better fleet to rely on than KRs anyway.


But even so, I kind of like the idea of going with Orion-hull ORs.


In fact, here's an idea - what if the LogRomulans use more ORs than KRs, but get a license from the Klingons to build the kind of Klingon-type (or Klingon-upgraded, such as those on the historical King Eagle) engines needed to build fish ships?

That way, the third-generation LogRomulan fleet could echo both Klingon and Orion influences.

Plus, you could say that, for whatever reason, the design constraints of fielding a SC2 fish ship made it necessary to design and field Condors and King Condors, rather than a fish ship DN and/or BB...



And as I suggested earlier, if you have the WYN Cluster taken over by the Paravians anyway, that might explain why no fish ships ended up being built there.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:00 am: Edit

Scattershot:

- There is no particular reason that the ImperialFeds create the heavy/light photons. Likewise, there is no particular reason they would. So, in light of the desire to keep things more streamlined, why bother?

- The ImperialFeds have a great reason to make maulers: It is an offensive weapon used for attacking fixed targets. Sounds like a perfect reason all by itself.

- Personally, I would prefer to not use megaphasers. I don't see a gain in that.

- On the "no slave races" for the ImperialFeds. I am not worried much about how we get there, as that is pretty easy. (Quite frankly, it is pretty easy to get to "slave races" or "no slave races". The constraints just aren't that tight.) I just thought it would provide a very nice dicotomy against the other races. It is also very useful, as it provides some common ground with the ISC, which is going to be necessary if they have even a loose alliance.

- If the final sides are ImperialFed/Lyran/Hydran/ISC against Klingon/Kzinti/LogRomulan/Gorn (the Paravians, Tholians, and Carnivons are outside of the alliances) then the second group is gonna need some help, as the first group is much more powerful. This is NOT an argument against those lineups. (In fact, I *like* that arrangement.) But the Klingons and Kzinti especially need some help. Maybe the Carnivons can be unofficial "cobelligerants"? Say, the Kzinti and Carnivons will fight each other if they run across each other, but the Carnivons are mainly focused on the Lyrans?

- I can agree with perhaps having the Carnivons steal from the Lyrans instead of the Kzinti. That would significantly help the above concern. I could go for a "crossing" of borders between the Lyrans and Hydrans as a result.

- I still like the idea of restricting cloak to the Paravian Pirates. (There are no Orion Pirates.) That gives them a nice strategic advantage without a strong tactical advantage. Regardless, I highly doubt either the LogRomulans or the EmoVulcans and ImperialFeds would have invented it. It doesn't really fit the character of the first, and the latter don't need it.

- It is kinda interesting that the ImperialFeds would end up being slightly more "pure" in their technology than the RealFeds. The RealFeds got a broad crossection of technology, while the ImperialFeds just have phasers, photons, and drones. No gatlings, no plasma.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:16 am: Edit

Gary:

I agree that the Klingons would likely have provided fewer ships. Probably the initial batch of KRs and K5Rs (as they are just from the mothball fleet), but no more. What I see being done is more along the lines of additional technical assistance (probably mostly subject races), and a lot more free licensing. Another big thing could be machinery to rapidly upgrade the LogRomulan shipyard facilities.

(Since the Tholians are less hostile to the Klingons and LogRomulans than the ImperialFeds, it is quite possible a secret safe passage could be arranged for the critical materials.)

I do not agree on the Orion ships. First, there are no Orion ships, unless the Paravian Pirates get them. In that case, they are not really "Orion" ships, but rather Paravian designs that just happen to look like the main universe's Orion designs. Second, if there were Orion ships and the LogRomulans made a deal with them, then there would be no Smarba, no KRs, and no Hawks. Third, there is no "Orion Enclave". Orions are direct members and willing, influential participants in the ImperialFederation.

Again, the LogRomulans are not the ones to get new ships. (That appears to be saved for the ImperialFeds and Carnivons.) As such, we have to build the history to move the LogRomulans from Eagles to Hawks. Kestrals are indeed optional, though nice to have. Klingon participation is not optional.

(As an aside, one thing to note about the LogRomulan ships is how they will all be much cheaper than RealRomulan ships. Without a cloaking device all of the ships will be getting about a 13% BPV reduction.)

Oh, and I ignored the Kingbird because it is irrelevant. Considering that the King Eagle is built along completely different lines, it is obvious that the Kingbird and King Eagle are not related, and that the Kingbird was some kind of "dead end" in ship development. (Now, if Petrick ever decides to do a "Kingbird Eagle", then I can add it to the list of default ships. Until then, I assume it is just a dead end. [Plus, we would then have a name to use for it, too, since Kingbird Eagle just doesn't do it.])

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:19 am: Edit

Well, I did mention that perhaps a fleet of Klingons got stuck on the wrong side of things, so while Smarba doesn't happen the LogRoms still get the KR influance.

I cannot see the LogRoms actually conducting the treaty with the Klingons. Since they are friendly with the Gorns, a treaty is more likely with them.

So I suggest simply finding an alternate way for Logical Romulans gain the Klingon influance in design to get the 3rd gen ships.

Honestly though, I don't see very much Klingon influence on Romulan design. So I don't think it's really that much of an issue.

To me, Smarba with Klingons makes no sense.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:34 am: Edit

---

Quote:

To me, Smarba with Klingons makes no sense.

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By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 09:57 am: Edit

Well if you need some more balancing, why not have the Orion's as independent. The free market traders that they are, they refuse to join the Imperialist Fed, and they can be neutral, like the LDR or join the logRomulans alliance, depending on how much balancing you need. They would not be the pirates, but perhaps they develop the cloak to cover their movements and trading from the Imperial Federation forces.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 10:42 am: Edit

I did not mean to imply that the Carnivons would take provinces ONLY from the Kzintis. They will certainly take some from the Lyrans as well.

As for balance, we can make that work.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 10:59 am: Edit

Does the Reflection Universe need fighters? What if things develop there in such a way that no one uses fighters? Or just the Hydrans use fighters?

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 11:12 am: Edit

One thing that'll be interesting is using established SFU personalities in different roles (Kosnett/Kumerian spring to mind).

It would be fun to see 'The Usurper' play a role too. Originally I thought he could be the one who 'saved the Kzinti' by pulling the remnants of the fleet to safety in the Wyn Cluster from which they would return. Instead, maybe he achieves a great victory that saves the Hegemony in the Reflection Universe.