Archive through July 08, 2009
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module R4J: Shadow of the Eagle:
The Reflection Universe Project:
Archive through July 08, 2009
Michael,
This was another reason for me to want the Kzintis out of the picture for awhile. 
They could develop the concept of the fighters as attrition units for their supremely valuable ships 'in a vacuum' as it were. The other races wouldn't have the benefit of seeing large groups of fighters in action (the only fighters being on the Hybrid Hydrans).
I'd personally like to see fighters downgraded, but that's a specific item to discuss and has to fit the history which right now keeps the Kzinti strong enough to develop them much as they did before.
Perhaps the Kzintis have a bad experience in Y158 and their fighter experiment doesn't work as well.
The Klingons on the other hand might realize that fighters may be a key to survival and would tip the scales in favor of them hanging on a bit more if they're the "primary" fighter race in the early years of the General War.
Ha, no fighters. We better be careful not to make the Reflections Universe more popular than the "real" universe. 
But I would like to see some differences in how fighters are deployed. Ultimately, if the Kzinti are the same them they develope fighters first on their own. They probably end up eating the human kid who never helps the Feds fighter program so that probably lags behind. Maybe the F-18 is their best (no F-14 or F-15 and no F-111)and the Klingons lead the galaxy in fighter deployment. Evil Feds would certainly end up deploying PFs though, however, somewhat late?
So how about, Lyrans develop the INT and later the PF which is copied by the Kzinti and simultaniously by the Klinogns (but deploy them to a lesser degree due to their increased fighter program in the Reflection Universe). The Feds observe this and start their own program. LogRoms and Gorns are last to develop PFs.
So, no takers on the Paravians-rule-the-WYN-cluster idea, then?
Actually, while I'm here, I wanted to try and give the Paravians something which might be a little more long-term a plan other than simply being the new raiders... an idea which is echoed in the regular timeline by the Paravian Jihad over in the Omega Octant.
-----------------------------
First of all, I'll try to run through what it is I'm referring to, in terms of what the birds get up to in the regular timeline's Omega Octant.
Over there, the Paravians show up from about Y95, but stick with a few hexes' worth of core territory for a while. Over the next several decades, they launch increasingly long-range scouting missions and technology raids into the Octant, while trying to keep their own home space un-discovered.
(This is a wise move, since the Omega powers have been at TL12 for several decades by the time the Paravians show up - and even if the Paravians had Middle Years ships, would have no chance against an invasion from the silicate Trobrin Empire, their nearest neighbouring power.)
Eventually, by Y175, the Trobrin discover the birds, and the two fight various skirmishes - but the Empire is caught in the Superpower Wars, and can't concentrate enough forces to kill off the Paravians. Indeed, the birds are able to use the Trobrin involvement in more distant wars to grab chunks of coreward territory.
However, the Jihad is put on hold once the Souldra and Andromedans show up. The birds eventually fall back to their core space, are only saved from the Souldra thanks to Loriyill Splinter Collective help, and from the Andromedans by the success of Operation Unity.
By the start of the Seventh Cycle (Y205-Y221, after the Invasions) the game board has been largely re-set - and this time, the Paravians really go to town.
While returning to raid the Trobrin, they expand along the coreward edge of the Octant all the way to the Wasteland, and encounter the home world of the once-fearsome bear-like Ymatrians. The somewhat superstitious locals really get the wrong idea about the birds, thinking them to be angels. This allows the Paravisn to enslave the Ymatrians, uncover some of their buried antiproton technology, and use Ymatrian troops as boarding parties.
Also, the Paravians - who still haven't revealed just how strong they now are, or what they have in mind regarding the Jihad - sign a treaty with the Trobrin, which allows them to launch raids into more distant empires, then pass through Imperial space un-molested. The Trobrin might have thought this was a good idea at the time...
So, it looks like the timeline of the Eighth and final (known) Cycle, whenever it gets published, will feature the full-on Jihad against the Omega Octant - which may or may not co-incide by a fresh wave of expansion by another, more recent, set of blow-ins, the Echarri Dynasty.
-----------------------------
Now, what I had in mind for these Paravians is a somewhat different series of events, but the same long-term goal (of full-on Jihad against everyone else - not least the hated Gorns).
It could start with the Paravians launching ever-wider raids into the rest of the Octant - from the Gorns to the ISC and LogRomulans, than on to the Imperialists, Klingons, and so forth.
While this is taking place, the Paravian cells sent outwards may be tasked with establishing hidden bases from which to operate (the kind 'our' Orion Cartels build) - while stealing as many technology samples from the local empires as they can (and trying to get at least some of it back to Paravia).
During the course of this long-term build-up - which the other empires would mistake for mere piracy - the Paravians would find the WYN Cluster, take it over, and use it as their "birds' nest". From here, they could build up their forces behind the relative safety of the radiation zone, support raids across the western portion of the Octant, and bide their time.
Eventually, either before, or probably after, the Andromedan Invasion (which would leave the Cluster relatively unscathed, as it did the historical WYNs - but enervate the border regions of the other empires) the Paravians would be able to seize upon the weakened state of the other empires and make a grab for the neutral zone hexes and border provinces of the various empires, all the way from the WYN Cluster back to Paravia.
But even now, the Paravians would not reveal their full hand - as they try to use this newly-won territory as an eventual spring-board for the coming Jihad.
Thus, the relatively benign ISC Pacification Campaign of one timeline becomes a full-on Paravian holy war of another.
(The Paravians could still lose, and get badly beaten - but even so, they could leave a lot of dead colony worlds in their wake.)
How is that?
Some comments
Mike West,
The LogRomulans are a fairly peaceful people who probably would have spent much less time working on their military fleet as the RealRomulans. They have expanded peacefully, found the Gorns, and had a long a prosperous relationship with them. Then they meet the hostile ImperialFeds, but they are focused elsewhere and are not a significant threat.
What incentive does the Imperium have for leaving anybody alone? None that I can see. Even if the Imperium isn't waging warfare on lRom space they could at the drop of a hat. We won't even talk about any remaining bad blood between the eVulcans and and lRomulans. Logically, a strong defense, is necessary.
...But not necessarily a strong offense. Logically, again, extensive defenses but limited attack ability (in the form of a small fleet, but not necessarily a technologically backward fleet) serve as a deterrent to being attacked by the Imperium and provide evidence to the Imperium that the lRomulans pose no threat.
Smarba becomes a way to jumpstart the lRomulans off their defensive posture to an offensive one.
It is uninteresting (to me) to simply hand the romulans all the toys we're used to, such as Kestrels and Hawks. We had a whole topic on General War-era Eagle ships and this is a perfect outlet for them. There's room for kestrels, but no room for both updated Eagles and 3rd-gen Hawks. One of them has to go.
Loren,
To me, Smarba with Klingons makes no sense.
Then who? Moot point because SVC has greenlighted Kestrels, but I am curious.
Mike again,
- Personally, I would prefer to not use megaphasers. I don't see a gain in that.
Agreed. megaphasers are best left a simulator tech.
- If the final sides are ImperialFed/Lyran/Hydran/ISC against Klingon/Kzinti/LogRomulan/Gorn (the Paravians, Tholians, and Carnivons are outside of the alliances) then the second group is gonna need some help, as the first group is much more powerful. This is NOT an argument against those lineups. (In fact, I *like* that arrangement.)
Why would the ISC ally with the Imperial Terrans? I realize you are agreeing with the idea and not the one who proposed it. But still...
Robert,
I'd personally like to see fighters downgraded, but that's a specific item to discuss and has to fit the history which right now keeps the Kzinti strong enough to develop them much as they did before.
Generally agreed. The moment gatlings revert to Hydran-only weapons, fighter evolution stops at about the F-18B/C/D grade of development. The most abusable fighters in the game leave the game.
And in compensation, the Imperials get PFs.
I'd prefer to see the Hydrans on the Klingon/Kzinti/LogRomulan/Gorn side, but with more of a defensive philosophy. The Hydrans would help to balance the Lyran threat against the Klingons.
Another cool way to balance the Hydrans not being with the ImperialFeds, give the ImperialFeds two megaphasers on command cruisers and battle cruisers and four megaphasers on dreadnoughts. That would certainly fit with the ImperialFeds expansionist philosophy.
If that isn't enough of a balance, let several Orion ships disappear like they do in the actual SFU when Orion becomes part of the Imperial Federation. They might end up receiving sanctuary on a planet in logRomulan space much like the Gorns.
Megaphasers (for ImperialFeds ONLY) in limited quantities would be cool and would really give a different flavor to the Reflection Universe.
I'd like to see the Paravians stay to the east but have MANY rivelries between them and the Orions. They should REALLY hate each other.
IMHO
Quote:So, no takers on the Paravians-rule-the-WYN-cluster idea, then?
Sorry, but I just don't see that. The WYN would still be the WYN. I don't see the ImperialFeds being so dangerous to the Kzintis at that point in time to significantly change their history (yet). The Usurper still likely founds the WYN Cluster, and other species eventually join them. I can see a Paravian contingent (especially if they become the Octant-wide pirate organization), but I can't see them making it all the way across the Octant to take it over in sufficient force to own it.
Quote:Thus, the relatively benign ISC Pacification Campaign of one timeline becomes a full-on Paravian holy war of another.
How is that?
OK, without the part about the Paravians taking over the WYN Cluster (don't see that happening), I do like the idea of a Paravian Jihad. I would time it like the ISC Pacification, and do it before the Andromedan Invasion, but I do like the idea of replacing the ISC Pacification Campaign with a Paravian Jihad.
Actually, I like that idea a lot.
Quote:Smarba becomes a way to jumpstart the lRomulans off their defensive posture to an offensive one.
OK. I can take that story. It is arguably a better refinement than mine.
Quote:It is uninteresting (to me) to simply hand the romulans all the toys we're used to, such as Kestrels and Hawks. We had a whole topic on General War-era Eagle ships and this is a perfect outlet for them. There's room for kestrels, but no room for both updated Eagles and 3rd-gen Hawks. One of them has to go.
While I am quite willing to see truly "modernized" Eagle designs (and suggested such myself earlier), I don't see that happening. From what I saw SVC say, these ships have sailed. The LogRomulans get the Romulan fleet. It will obviously be gained in different steps, but that is the LogRomulan fleet. Other empires are the ones to get new ships; not the LogRomulans.
I can't stress this enough: If you read between the lines from SVC, this is not the project to create brand new ships from whole cloth. Everything has to be based on something that already exists. No one is getting whole new ships that never existed before. (I am sure SVC will correct me if this needs correcting, but that is sure the message I am getting.)
Quote:Why would the ISC ally with the Imperial Terrans? I realize you are agreeing with the idea and not the one who proposed it. But still...
SVC explained this already. The ISC is completely hemmed in by the Gorn and LogRomulans. Assuming they provide a fairly unified from, the ISC is going to be in pretty hard economic competition with them. Allying with the ImperialFeds gives them an outlet, and weakens the Gorns and LogRomulans. And (if my view of the ImperialFeds is right), they would likely respond to the fact that the ImperialFeds are an equally cosmopolitan conglomeration of species. I can see that easily striking a chord with the ISC, to the point of letting them ignore the really violent culture of the ImperialFeds (who are pretty distant, anyway).
The shorter explanation is that it is needed for the overall dymanic balance, and it is easy enough to justify.
Quote:Generally agreed. The moment gatlings revert to Hydran-only weapons, fighter evolution stops at about the F-18B/C/D grade of development. The most abusable fighters in the game leave the game.
Not necessarily. There is no reason there can't be the same amount of limited numbers of F-14s and F-15s that just have 2xPh-3 instead of the Ph-G. I mean, the fighters are already in CL39.
Now, please understand that I have no problem with eliminating the hi/lo philosophy and just using mass produced F-18B/Cs. I am just saying that the ImperialFeds can have gatling-less F-14s and F-15s if they want to.
(I do agree that giving the ImperialFeds gunboats does completely eliminate the F-111. It flat out never exists past the production samples.)
Quote:I'd prefer to see the Hydrans on the Klingon/Kzinti/LogRomulan/Gorn side, but with more of a defensive philosophy. The Hydrans would help to balance the Lyran threat against the Klingons.
Can't do that, as the Lyrans would then be dead. They would literally be surrounded by the Carnivons, Kzinti, Klingons, and Hydrans, all of whom would be hostile to the Lyrans.
Quote:If that isn't enough of a balance, let several Orion ships disappear like they do in the actual SFU when Orion becomes part of the Imperial Federation. They might end up receiving sanctuary on a planet in logRomulan space much like the Gorns.
I just don't see the LogRomulans being willingly complicit in piracy like that. Any Orion "enclave" in LogRomulan space would just be LogRomulan citizens without a separate fleet.
Quote:Ha, no fighters. We better be careful not to make the Reflections Universe more popular than the "real" universe.
Maybe the laws of nature are also slightly different in the reflections universe... reverse movement costs double, you only get one TAC per turn, drones move on the impulse they HET but can only HET if it will cause them to hit the target, and the ESG emits a burst rather than a moving sphere ;)
Mike,
I can't stress this enough: If you read between the lines from SVC, this is not the project to create brand new ships from whole cloth. Everything has to be based on something that already exists. No one is getting whole new ships that never existed before. (I am sure SVC will correct me if this needs correcting, but that is sure the message I am getting.)
That would be a pity. The product is not viable as a scenario book. The SSD book is best filled with something interesting. Like standard-tech Carnovons and Paravians (yes I'm aware of CL #28). If the two are everything the SSD book can handle, then OK. But if there's room for a third group of new SSDs, Standard-tech Eagle ships would be my choice.
SVC explained this already. The ISC is completely hemmed in by the Gorn and LogRomulans. Assuming they provide a fairly unified from, the ISC is going to be in pretty hard economic competition with them. Allying with the ImperialFeds gives them an outlet, and weakens the Gorns and LogRomulans. And (if my view of the ImperialFeds is right), they would likely respond to the fact that the ImperialFeds are an equally cosmopolitan conglomeration of species. I can see that easily striking a chord with the ISC, to the point of letting them ignore the really violent culture of the ImperialFeds (who are pretty distant, anyway).
Competition? why not trade? The only competition would be for new systems and the Imperials aren't any help with that.
Distance makes trade wit the Imperials dodgy at best, also.
So the ISC, even a less idealistic ISC, happily turns a blind eye to a culture that countenances casual, self-interested murder? Not sure I buy that.
Not necessarily. There is no reason there can't be the same amount of limited numbers of F-14s and F-15s that just have 2xPh-3 instead of the Ph-G. I mean, the fighters are already in CL39.
haven't read CL39. Didn't know they existed. I just don't think the reasons the Feds never developed PFs aren't valid for the Imperials.
Mike:
Bear in mind that for the first few decades of the Cluster's existence post-Y117, the one thing that kept them alive was that no-one knew they weren't dead.
When the first Orion ship entered, the Usurper had, what, 2 frigates? Y-era ones, to boot. The Orion captain at the time decided to deal, and only had one ship anyway (to start off with).
If that entering ship (or maybe, squadron) ends up being Paravian instead, the Usurper would be toast. A Paravian force of sufficient strength would be enough to take the Cluster over at such a stage - and then it would be they who would be able to husband the resources of the Cluster for their own purposes. They could even bring various groups of captured colonists to work as forced labour on various planets within the Cluster (similar to how the historical Omega-Paravians enslaved the Ymatrians for their own ends).
For something as ambitious as a full-on Jihad to work, the resources of the WYN Cluster may be vital in supporting operations in the western Octant, and make for a tough "bird's nest" for the opposing forces to have to try and crack.
(Plus it would take the pressure away from Paravia itself.)
John:
The historical Feds have no problem propping up a Hegemony full of slave-owners who eat other sentient beings.
Politics makes for strange bedfellows sometimes.
LRom Ships:
Kestrals are nice, but are they needed? Since the Eagles are semi-modern why not skip to the production of Hawks. It makes little sense to invest in a logistics train for forign technology that is limited and is being surplanted by native designs. Kestrals had a place in the Prime because a weakness was filled. That weakness does not apply in this universe.
RE.Laws of Nature:
Those would be the ImperialCommander line, with all the nice & shiny color bits.
Charles Chapel
Quote:That would be a pity. The product is not viable as a scenario book. The SSD book is best filled with something interesting. Like standard-tech Carnovons and Paravians (yes I'm aware of CL #28). If the two are everything the SSD book can handle, then OK. But if there's room for a third group of new SSDs, Standard-tech Eagle ships would be my choice.
It looks like the two main selections for "new" ships are the GW-era Carnivons and the war-ified pre-war Federation ship designs for the ImperialFeds.
Doing "modern Eagles" would be much harder and require a lot more time. They would literally be designed from scratch. I don't see that much time being invested in this project. (And just for clarity, by "modern Eagles" I mean ships that are shaped like the current Eagles, but have systems and box count to match comparible ships from other races. For example, the new "Modern War Eagle" would 1xR, 2xF, 6-8 Ph-1, 4-2 Ph-3, 38 power, and other box counts comparible to the Fed CA, Gorn BC, or Romulan Firehawk.)
Quote:Kestrals are nice, but are they needed? Since the Eagles are semi-modern why not skip to the production of Hawks. It makes little sense to invest in a logistics train for forign technology that is limited and is being surplanted by native designs.
Needed or not, SVC has pretty much said they will be there. So, the job becomes explaining them, not deciding their presence. And it isn't that hard.
I figure the Kestrals for the LogRomulans are just a stop-gap. They take delivery of an initial set while designing and building their new Hawk series. Assuming that is correct, that means they would only have KRs and K5Rs (from the mothball fleet). They probably wouldn't bother with the rest.
BTW, it also means that they can be smarter about building the KE. They don't need to make some "house" happy by continuing to build old WEs or anything, and can just focus on Hawks and KEs.
I see nothing in the Vulcan Change that affects fighters, one way or the other. Remember, boys and girl, ONE CHANGE and its results, not every whacko idea anybody ever had.
I see nothing in the Vulcan Change that that affects the WYN cluster. Certainly, if the Paravians are the pirates, they would have a cartel and a shipyard there, just like the Orions did.
I could easily see the Imperial Feds building PFs and not having any uber-fighters (no F14, F15, F111).
The Vulcan Change would mean no Paravians ever went to Omega.
I should clarify that my mention of the Omega-Paravians was intended more to show how the Jihad idea was rooted in the historical Omega timeline - not necessarily that the same would happen in this universe's Omega.
Rather, it was to try and see whether or not the Paravians would take that similar kind of long-term fanaticism into the reflection setting, rather then have them only be the new pirates.
But to clarify, did the Paravians of this setting flee the home system before it was destroyed, or does the Sun Snake not take the system out this time around?
(If it doesn't, how did the Vulcan Change lead to that happening?)
Gary,
The historical Feds have no problem propping up a Hegemony full of slave-owners who eat other sentient beings.
The Feds did that because they needed counterbalances against a common enemy (the klinks)
Now explain how the relatively peaceful lRomuland and Gorns are the same kind of threat against the ISC.
I just don't see the ISC associating with the Imperium when they don't have to...and they don't. As SVC says, one change and its effects. The ISC are still the ISC. Maybe they develop in less isolation so they don't have the time to become as idealistic, but they're still the ISC. Culturally, they have a lot in common with the lRoms. Yet Mike proposes a fierce enough rivalry that the ISC takes the Imperial side when the Octet is plunged into war.
If anything, the Gorn/lRom alliance makes a great buffer against outside threats like those looney paravians and that big, scary Imperium.
I can see the ISC adopting something like the Canadian or european military mindset: I don't have to do much because other people are doing it for me.
But to clarify, did the Paravians of this setting flee the home system before it was destroyed, or does the Sun Snake not take the system out this time around?
Presumably the sun snake still fries the paravian homeworld. But because the Gorns aren't being pressed by the romulans the effect of the loss of homeworld is less genocidal.
Presumably the surviving paravians become the "scum of the quadrant" and take up the pirate mantle instead of fleeing to Omega.
John:
So, I'm guessing that 'Canadian mindset' also means that the ISC finds itself in a war or two against a common foe before a certain set of 'others' do, and later plays a prominent role in a well-known set of expeditions which helped bring one of those wars to its conclusion?
Presumably while the 'others' stay neutral for 2-3 years before joining in, of course.
*Imagines an ISC-run 'Juno Beach-head Centre' in the area of the Cloud their forces arrived at during Operation Unity...*
Would you prefer "Modern Canadian/European" minset?
When the 2009 Califonia National Guard outweighs the 2009 Canadian Army, certain conclusions come easily to mind.
I'd prefer not to have part of this thread turn into an opportunity to take pot-shots at those of us who live outside of the United States, thank you.
Apologies.
My comments weren't intnded as a shot taken at anybody's country.
At most a freindly counter-poke.
Understood - and I'm sorry if I over-reacted.
It's not always easy for me to pick up on the difference, especially in a text-based environment.
(Not that it's all that much easier to get it right when it's in a face-to-face environment, mind you.)
Alternatively, if it's too much of a leap to add the ISC to the Imperial side (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) maybe the balancing factor would be a removal of one of the other sides, too?
Maybe keep the Kzintis or Gorns neutral, or something.
Or the Imperials ally with the Klingons and the entirety of the rest of Known Space has to team up to stop them. That wouldn't produce a smarba situation, but it would be interesting nontheless.
We probably want to keep the Terran-klingon antagonism, however, since it's the single most recognizable one in the game.
The big thing to hash out is the fact that the Eastern 4-powers playground doesn't exist. We still have the Carnovons exercizing Puppy Power, to say nothing of the Imperium itself coming over to play. If the West is unusually calm compared to the Prime universe, the East is, if anything, even more violent.
We may need to rewrite the Eastern map even more than was needed to accomodate the Carnvons. maybe the klinks dent Imperial space in around Orion, while the Imperials hold some northern areas of what would be klingon space in the prime universe.
The Paravians aren't going to be wiped out (as I said). Just how, we can work out.
Quote:Now explain how the relatively peaceful lRomuland and Gorns are the same kind of threat against the ISC.
Because people do stupid things and people that should get along often don't.
Geez, I don't know. Maybe there was a border dispute. Maybe the ISC believed that the Gorns and LogRoms were teaming up with favorable conditions for each other, and nasty terms for the ISC. (And who is to say they don't!)
Remember, this is the same ISC who decided that the most prudent action was to go to war against everyone in the Octant! Obviously, these guys are not long on "logic". They are obviously passionate. They are obviously self-delusional (like actual real people). They obviously have strong streaks of arrogance and self-righteousness. In GURPS terms, the "Overconfidence" disadvantage should be a racial trait.
So, what sets them over the edge? Who knows? The Smarba treaty is probably a great place to end. (Those duplicious LogRoms are showing their true colors by allying with the evil Klingons!!) Maybe a massive misunderstanding. Real wars have been started over less.
The logistics of the setting require an alliance between the ImperialFeds and ISC. If it doesn't exist, then the ISC might as well not even be included. Since that alliance is needed, and since such an alliance is highly plausible (even if not initially all that probable), it becomes just a matter of making it work.
Quote:The big thing to hash out is the fact that the Eastern 4-powers playground doesn't exist.
This isn't exactly a problem, either. Instead of Klingons/Lyrans and Hydrans/Kzinti, we have Klingons/Kzinti and Lyrans/Hydrans with Carnivons vexing both sides as a total wildcard. The playground still exists, and it is actually even more volatile (which is good!). It seems to work to me.
(BTW, I think you have your "East" and "West" backwards. The "West" is the Hydrans, Lyrans, Klingons, Kzinti and Carnivons. The "East" is the plasma races.)
Quote:We may need to rewrite the Eastern map even more than was needed to accomodate the Carnvons. maybe the klinks dent Imperial space in around Orion, while the Imperials hold some northern areas of what would be klingon space in the prime universe.
I don't really see this. The Carnivons just take some of the western most parts of the Kzinti and the northern most parts of the Lyrans, ending up with a sizable chunk of territory. The rest of the borders don't change (or need to change).
As for the ImperialFeds, the Orions are willing and eager member participants. There is no Orion Enclave. There are no independent Orion or "Orion" ships. There is no potential for disloyalty (beyond what the ImperialFed culture already provides anyway). Personally, I don't see the ImperialFed border being any different from the Federation border from Y102 through the GW.
Quote:The Paravians aren't going to be wiped out (as I said). Just how, we can work out.
Since the Gorn strategy changed from "wipe out the fleet and contain them" to "build a strong defense", the Paravians have a full fleet with which to defend their homeworld from the sunsnake.
I figure the Paravian sun is fine because that sunsnake got hammered on the way in.
Mike,
The logistics of the setting require an alliance between the ImperialFeds and ISC. If it doesn't exist, then the ISC might as well not even be included. Since that alliance is needed, and since such an alliance is highly plausible (even if not initially all that probable), it becomes just a matter of making it work.
Fair point. I'm sure something can be arranged. Maybe the paravians arrange a "let's you and him fight" scenario between the Gorns and ISC about the same time as the lRoms get their new (to them) smarba ships, making the ISC (wrongly) think that the Gorns and lRoms are suddenly eyeing their territory.
I don't really see this. The Carnivons just take some of the western most parts of the Kzinti and the northern most parts of the Lyrans, ending up with a sizable chunk of territory. The rest of the borders don't change (or need to change).
As for the ImperialFeds, the Orions are willing and eager member participants. There is no Orion Enclave. There are no independent Orion or "Orion" ships. There is no potential for disloyalty (beyond what the ImperialFed culture already provides anyway). Personally, I don't see the ImperialFed border being any different from the Federation border from Y102 through the GW.
I figured that Imperials would want to play in the West more than access to the kzinti and Klingins alone gives them. If you want Smarba, then the klingons need to give way in the north and get more in the south. Orion was just a handy marker for the area of space I was talking about handing the klinks in exchange for their northern territories.