SVC, I wrote up a page about that very idea. Who should I send it to for a quick look?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:30 am: Edit

Post it here. I don't want any back door conversations on this subject.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 06:44 pm: Edit

WARNING: The below fills a regular page of text.

After studying the human societies on Earth for nearly a century, the Vulcan Science Academy concluded that the infant American nation-state was projected to develop into an economic powerhouse which could potentially organize humanity into a future threat. This was in spite of several monarchial and autocratic nation-states around the planet favored by various factions in the Academy. The Vulcan High Command decided to subvert the young state so as to bring humanity under Vulcan influence.

Around the time the study concluded, the United States had broken down into Civil War between the northern Union and the southern Confederacy. There were a variety of reasons for this schism, economics and ideology chief among them. The Vulcan High Command commissioned a Special Group to observe the war, determine which faction was likely to win, then secretly approach the projected loser and offer covert assistance by "financial and other means" to destabilize the projected victory.

The aim was to engineer an economic, political, and cultural situation which would subvert the United States into something more useful. The ideal situation would result in Earth "naturally" developing into the desired end state, but Vulcan intervention was also planned. Dozens of scientists, spies, and commandos assembled under the command of a powerful Vulcan matriarch. The Group eventually favored the Union to win, mainly due to its protected economic resources more than any military prowess.

The Special Group approached the Confederate government and offered its assistance. The Vulcans never revealed their true nature to the humans and ensured there were never any witnesses to any of their technical activities. They orchestrated a number of key interventions which broke the "Anaconda" naval blockade, intimidated Kentucky into remaining neutral, and engineered the assassinations of Generals Grant and Sherman as well as defeat of the Union at Vicksburg and Chattanooga.

As the war dragged on without any sign of success, President Lincoln lost his reelection bid and his successor proved more conciliatory. Negotiations with President Davis resulted in the Confederacy's recognition as a legitimate state. A ceasefire was finally reached in the fall of 1866. After the fighting had stopped, negotiations continued and Lincoln and Davis' successors signed a peace treaty in 1868, creating the bilateral Union of Sovereign American Republics.

Intervention in the Sovereign Union's economic and industrial development created increasing dependence by the north on the south until the south became dominant around the turn of the century. The south converted its greatest economic drain, slave labor, into "freemen" by employing them as constabulary "enterprises" responsible for pacification of new overseas colonies. Having met its First Objective, the Special Group began preparations for its Second Objective.

The Special Group found its greatest opportunity to shape humanity into something more useful when war broke out across the globe among humanity's Great Powers in 1914. The Group encouraged the Americans to exploit financial instability around the globe under a neutral status. The Vulcans prevented British exploitation of the Zimmerman Telegram, and then encouraged America to enter the war in 1918 by offering its services to the highest bidder. The Group financially backed the German bid.

Despite changes in military technology and strategy, the Great War seemed endless. British dominions protested the cost of the "Pointless War" and several rebelled against the Crown by withdrawing their forces. British diplomats quietly approached America regarding a separate peace and withdrew their forces from Europe. In 1919, France capitulated to German demands of unconditional surrender and agreed to the formation of a European League, with Kaiser Germany "first among equals."

In the summer of 1921, American, British, Canadian, and Australian forces neutralized Japan. The Special Group secretly assassinated Lenin and Stalin and ensured Trotsky took up communist reins. It convinced Germany to lead a European "expedition" into Russia, already embroiled in civil war. With the European League invading from the west and the American-Anglo Alliance pressing from the east, what was left of Russian society sued for peace and purged the communists in bloody reprisal.

When the Great War concluded with a whimper in 1922, America controlled nearly one half of the world's territory and had adopted a policy of exploiting economic instability. This proved useful during the post-colonial "meltdown" of the 1940s. By 1970, the Sovereign Union held controlling interests in most of the planet's governments and could usually bully the remaining nations as needed. America looked skyward for new conquests, setting foot on the moon in 1979, and Mars in 1996.

Eventually, Earth had reached sufficient technological development and the Special Group arranged a "surprise" first contact event. When the Sovereign Union attempted to rally Earth against Vulcan, the High Command demonstrated its might by demolishing several major cities from orbit. It then blackmailed America into compliance and paved the way for an interstellar axis. As humanity colonized other star systems it established the Earth Empire, which now competes on equal footing with Vulcan.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 10:58 am: Edit

Nicely written, but not the only possibility and while it's one I might accept, it's not my first choice, or my second choice. There are what I see as serious flaws (why would the two separate Americas form any kind of union? How the heck would the south dominate the north? Would not the moon landing have been earlier?) which result in a grade of "nice try".

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 04:00 pm: Edit

People are starting to forget some of what's been said. Can we collect the starting point for this project and sticky-note it to this topic?

This is the best I can remember of what has set down for the topic.

One change only, all effects must stem from that change. Meaning: this is not a sandbox for proposing any number of other changes or tweaks to the SFU.

This also means that all the other empires still think the same except as modified by the change in events. the Klingons are still Klingons, etc.


In this case the change is: Surak dies prematurely. Immidiate result is the vulcans who resist Surak's way win a civil war and Surak's followers are exiled. To wit: the people we know as "vulcans" and "romulans" switch places. For convienence they are called emoVulvans and logRomulans.

At some point in Earth history, the emoVulcans interfere, transmitting their mindset to humans. Maybe they back a group of humans that think like they do.

SVC lists any number of countries or personalities for the emoVulcans to back including Stalin's russia, etc back through history as a far as ancient Rome. The one figure known to be off the emoVulcan interference list is Napoleon.

The result is a negative Federation commonly called the Terran Empire (do not know if the name is negotiable) which is commonly conceived as a pirate meritocracy where anybody can get ahead if they are cold-blooded and ruthless enough.

A permuation of this sort of empire is there is no Orion defection and formation of *Orion* pirate cartels.

The Gorns make peace with the logRomulans and ally with them.

The ISC makes contact sooner with Known Space and is not as idealistic

The loss of the Paravian Homeworld places them in the role of Octet-wide pirates instead of the Orions. These Pirate paravians (do they have pteradactyls on their shoulders or are they their own parrots?) are the ones that would have otherwise emigrated to Omega, so Omega has no paravian refugees.

Pressure from the Terrran Empire keeps the Kzintis/Lyrans from finishing off the Carnovons. Klingons ally with the Kziniti, forcing the Hydrans and the Lyrans to ally. The Carnovons are presumably left without a dance partner because they are unable to ally with anyone that would ally with a Kzinti or a Lyran. They remain free agents. A chunk of both Lyran and Kzinti space is carved out (never conquored) to create Carnovon space.

The settling of the WYN Cluster by the Usurper occurs more or less the same, but the Orion presence is replaced with a paravian presence.

Presumably the General War still occurs. Tenative sides are:

Terran Empire
Lyrans
Hydrans
ISC

vs.

Klingons
Kzinti
Gorns
logRomulans

With the Tholians remaining neutral and the Carnovons presumably picking opportunistically at both Lyran and Kzinti space.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 04:46 pm: Edit

SVC, in answer to your questions:

1) The south did reunite with the north after the real war ended (not by choice certainly). The notion that a victorious south would "make use of" the north might not have been that much of a stretch. Sure there was bitter enmity, but it doesn't of necessity require permanent separation. 2) The south dominating the north thing is pretty much a deus ex machina via Vulcans. 3) The real space race was fueled by the Cold War. There is no Cold War in this history, so "America" might've taken a "we'll get around to it" attittude. I originally thought about a moon landing c. 1950s, but then I figured "America" would be busying itself by buying up the rest of the world. I reckoned 50-ish years might be a reasonable timeframe.

And I'll take "nice try" over "utter carp" any day of the week. Thanks for reviewing.

John, I very much appreciate the recap.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 06:31 pm: Edit

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Quote:

The Carnovons are presumably left without a dance partner because they are unable to ally with anyone that would ally with a Kzinti or a Lyran. They remain free agents. A chunk of both Lyran and Kzinti space is carved out (never conquored) to create Carnivorn space.

---

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 06:37 pm: Edit

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Quote:

These Pirate paravians... are the ones that would have otherwise emigrated to Omega, so Omega has no paravian refugees.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:20 pm: Edit

The emoVulcans have starflight ahead of everybody else. How do we keep them from dominating Fedspace?

Answer: We don't. At first.

EDIT: SVC suggested that they elevate one of Earth's repressive governments to planetwide power. My take on that is what's written below.

The emoVulcans conquor a core chunk of fedspace. eVulcan racism being what it is, they nominate Humans as overseers because Humans play well with other cultures and because they are the least un-vulcanoid-looking of their subject races. Then It all Goes Horribly Wrong and the First Empire is brought down.

When everybody rebuilds, Everybody else pounces on the eVulcans and Humans, but lose. As pressure mounts from the Klingons and others, Humans over time give talented indiviuals from subject races the ability to advance. This places humans center-stage of a very harsh Terran Empire.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Heck, I was going to suggest the Vulcans hire Earth to do their dirty work for them. Then us clever rascals go and turn the tables on them and It All Goes Horribly Wrong. Voilà! Earth Empire is born.

Is the intent to make The Empire an Earth-Vulcan axis or is it Earth über alles and even the Vulcans are a subject race?

I like the idea of no Orion cartels, but I submit the whole dang empire is a pirate cartel. That was the impression I got from "Mirror, Mirror."

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:28 pm: Edit

I don't understand why the eVulcans need some convoluted plan to conquer the Earth. If Earth is too primitive to resist they can just take what they want (land, minerals, slaves) when they want it and if it's more advanced (say 20th century) they can just bombard cities from orbit until the nations of the Earth capitulate.

It would be the trauma of invasion and occupation (under a Quisling government that places no value on the lives of its own people) that makes Terrans more militant and backstabbing, there is no need to throw Romans, Soviets, or Nazis in the mix.

After consulting the SFU Timeline this is how I see moving from Vulcan occupation to Imperial Federation:

In response to eVulcan raids into their territory the OLD KINGS dissolve the eVulcan Empire. This allows Earth and other conquered races to resume independent development. The eVulcans are limited to their homeworld until the OLD KINGS depart the galaxy in -Y25.

After the OLD KINGS depart the eVulcans rebuild their fleet but now find they are just one among many militant star-faring races, most of whom are their former slaves. Earth, Andor, etc. unite (in fear) against the Vulcans despite their distrust for each other.

By Y4 the Vulcans have been defeated and Earth has become the dominant member of a profitable military alliance devoted to conquest (The Imperial Federation, whose philosophy is "exploit lest you be exploited"). Within a century the Vulcans are allowed to serve on Imperial Ships, but never in great numbers.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Is there a Treaty of Smarba?

Answer: According to SVC Smarba still occurs. I'd think it wouldn't be quite the same. It may even be known by a different name.

In this Universe, with the Gorns and logRoms buddies, there's no incentive to bomb logRomulan warp research into the pavement, so the logRoms have had it along the EY timeline followed by most other races.

But the logRoms focused on defense, not offense as a response to the Terrans. They made their space very hard to invade but kept a smallish fleet to minimize the perceived theat they themselves would be seen to pose to the Empire. The fleet they have is reconditioned hulls from the EY period, more or less corresponding to the First Gen Romulan fleet.

When the General War kicks off, the Klingons initiate Smarba to help kickstart the logRomulans off of their defensive posture in order to bring Pressure on the Empire.

The logRomulans won't need kestrel hulls as badly as the prime universe romulans, but the Klingons might need to send them. the logRoms are able to refit the ships quickly and logically to prepare to help defend the galaxy from a Terran Empire gone mad.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:35 pm: Edit

That might lead to some interesting new directions based on the classic Eagle fleet.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:42 pm: Edit

SVC suggested that the emoVulcans elevate a former despotic Earth government to planet-wide soveriginity. (previous post updated for clarity)

After all, you need someone to keep the natives in line.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 09:26 pm: Edit

I agree that the Vulcans would employ a puppet government I just don't think they would waste their time picking winners and losers in human conflicts based on ideologies, personalities, or the geo-political situation of the moment. Simply conquer the planet and give planet-wide stewardship to whichever nation-state makes itself the most useful.

This might not necessarily be a despotic country but that nation would obviously become despotic over time since it must serve the interests of Vulcan, not Earth.

In any event I just don't think which nation it is is that important to the timeline. The appeal of the Reflections Universe is that the Imperial Feds are militant backstabbers. The only explanation you really need as to why they are militant backstabbers is the dog eat dog brutality of the occupation and their determination moving forward to always be the conquerors rather than the conquered.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Douglas,

I like your idea. Simple, neat and contained within the SFU.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 10:08 pm: Edit

So I'm still reading back through the archive. Who gets the plasmas? eV or lR? Cloak? Etc.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 10:30 am: Edit

Log roms get cloak and plasma

Much cheaper, easier, and more stable result for eVulcans to pick a winner than bring enough firepower to win all by themselves.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Would the LogRomulans get the cloak? I can't see why they would, as even the RealRomulans only got cloak because warp research failed/was sabotaged. I would imagine that the LogRomulans would still get standard Romulan ships, but would not get cloak for any of them.

(As an odd aside, they would, however, gain the carronade, as a result of thier relationship with the Gorn.)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 04:36 pm: Edit

I wonder about that too.

It can be rationalized two ways that I can think of off the top of my head.

1) The logRoms and Gorns start out enemies and logRom warp research still gets toasted. When the two sides make peace, the gorns seal the deal with warp drive tech. The logRoms have developed the cloak in the meantime.

2) The logRoms, being more scienfically studious than their emo cousins are in the Prime SFU, simply develop the tech anyway. Perhaps the cloak is a recent invention researched by the logRoms during the runup to the General War.

I prefer the second because it's different and illustrates the logRom logic. If the Terran are starting to look like a threat, first the develop countermeasures to allow a ship buildup, then design ships to take advantage of the technology, then build sufficient amounts to intervene. The Klingons would have no patience for such an orderly approach and drop a bunch of hulls on the logRoms to hasten them to the point of intervention.

The loGroms would no doubt, drive then Klinks half-crazy with their practical, careful, logical approach toward ramping up to warfare.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Will the goatee-Vulcans retain their own fleet of ships (possibly might include their own designs) or have they been comepletely absorbed by The Empire and serve in whatever ships the humans allow?

(And second the sticky-note basics recap at top thing)

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 05:03 pm: Edit

I think John's second point has merit. What if the lRom develop the cloak because they decided a defense-in-depth strategy was prudent against The Empire, and as such a practical invisibility screen was a logical development? (Would The Empire prohibit itself from developing the cloak once it's demonstrated to be practical?)

Different point: Why would the lRoms side with the Klingons? Not saying it's an impossible situation. It just doesn't seem "logical" to trust the expansionist Klingons if they don't trust the expansionist Empire. What if The Empire is destroyed and the Klingons survive the war with a viable war machine?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Why would the Western Allies side with the Soviet Union? Not saying it's an impossible situation. It just doesn't seem "logical" to trust the expansionist Soviets if they don't trust the expansionist Nazis. What if Nazi Germany is destroyed and the Soviets survive the war with a viable war machine?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 05:16 pm: Edit

RBN,

Who are you referring to when you say "The Empire"?

What Alan said. You don't have to be philosohically inclined to your allies if you need them and they need you.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 05:29 pm: Edit

How the heck do the ISC end up on the side of the Terran Empire?

Answer: AS Mike West pointed out, the sides don't even out if they don't, and the ISC would be donsels in the General War.

One thing that's useful to note is that Pravian Pirates have one characteristic that orions don't. They have an axe to grind against the Gorns whereas the Orions are just equal-opportunity freebooters. In the Western end of space, this isn't really important. Not too many Gorns out there, so the paravians and Orions are functionally identical. But in the East...different story.

My thought is that the paravians set up a "let's you and him fight" between the Gorns and ISC. Perhaps at the behest of the Terran Empire, with which they would no doubt be allied, at least in Eastern space.

Supppose the gorns kept most of their fleet buildup on the ISC border to shield it from the Terrans. The paravians pull some kind of fast one (an attack, a leak of falsified infromation, somthing) that makes the ISC think the Gorns are planning to invade ISC space. The ISC retaliate against paravian aggression (masked to look like Gorn aggression) or preemptive-strike the Gorns as a result of the paravian actions.

The logRoms are dragged into the fight by default. Perhaps the ISC even preemtively attacks them as well. For there, it's on.